The Troubled History of RAF Kaldadarnes

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phylo_roadking
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Re: The Troubled History of RAF Kaldadarnes

Post by phylo_roadking » 06 Aug 2012 01:26

And exactly WHERE did I say they used concrete for runways, or that it would take two years to dry?
eVery time you mentioned how long it took for Kaldadarnes to be complete
No I did not. That's a VERY poor strawman. Try again...
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Re: The Troubled History of RAF Kaldadarnes

Post by Chromeboomerang » 06 Aug 2012 02:15

Don't need to, you mentioned in your post without straw it wasn't complete Spring 41.

& in the more important issue you've lost, the temporary runway issue, it bears repeating the He 111 Nowaya Zemla runway material was transported in another HE 111. A few men in a HE 111 built a runway in 15 hours that 2 He 111's successfully took off from near the North Pole. Did we catch that? Wood runway material transported in 1 HE 111?? a few men, not thousands of workers.

He 111's aren't Biplanes, they weigh 20-30.000 pounds
http://www.hq.wwiionline.com/profiles/he111.shtml
Weight: empty (H-3) 17,000lb (7,720kg); (P-2) 17,640lb (8,000kg); maximum loaded (H-3) 30,865lb (

Now that you've spent 3 years saying it couldn't be done at Iceland which get less rain than England & has flatter easier terrain to operate on, you're opportunity to prove your point has yet again presented itself. The stage is yours.

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Re: The Troubled History of RAF Kaldadarnes

Post by phylo_roadking » 06 Aug 2012 02:23

Don't need to, you mentioned in your post without straw it wasn't complete Spring 41.
Not good enough, according to the rules of this site. Please illustrate where I said the Kaldadarnes runways were built from concrete, and that it took two years for them to dry.
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Re: The Troubled History of RAF Kaldadarnes

Post by phylo_roadking » 06 Aug 2012 02:30

& in the more important issue you've lost, the temporary runway issue, it bears repeating the He 111 Nowaya Zemla runway material was transported in another HE 111. A few men in a HE 111 built a runway in 15 hours that 2 He 111's successfully took off from near the North Pole....
In high summer there. Remember? July....
Did we catch that? Wood runway material transported in 1 HE 111?? a few men, not thousands of workers.
Yes I did - so, are you honestly claiming that ONE He 111 could transport ENOUGH wood planking to pave the entire length of an He 111's take off run? :wink:
He 111's aren't Biplanes, they weigh 20-30.000 pounds
http://www.hq.wwiionline.com/profiles/he111.shtml
Weight: empty (H-3) 17,000lb (7,720kg); (P-2) 17,640lb (8,000kg); maximum loaded (H-3) 30,865lb (
***...though it MIGHT be an idea if you remmeber that fact every time you try to say that landing/taking off light biplanes from sports grounds "proves" that Ju52s could land and take off there too...***
Now that you've spent 3 years saying it couldn't be done at Iceland which get less rain than England & has flatter easier terrain to operate on
Less rain.....but far FAR more snow and for much longer each winter than the UK; as I've said before, several times now - the recurring problem at Kaldadarnes etc. wasn't regular rainfall...it was the millions of tons of Spring Thaw meltwater after an Icelandic winter.
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Re: The Troubled History of RAF Kaldadarnes

Post by phylo_roadking » 06 Aug 2012 03:01

Time for bed...

I've let Chromeboomerang post away merrily for the last hour without telling him of the major mistake he's made with his last reference. In fact - I kept feeding fuel to his fire. I wonder if anyone else has noticed it? :wink:

Here's a hint....
so, are you honestly claiming that ONE He 111 could transport ENOUGH wood planking to pave the entire length of an He 111's take off run?
:D Do what Chromeboomerang didn't do - study this VERY carefully...
A short time after the first "Kröte" station was set up on Spitsbergen in July 1942, the weather pilot Rudolf Schütze took off from Banak to ecploit a suitable position for another "Kröte" station on or near Nowaja Zemlya and attempted to land on 20 July on Meshdusharsskij Island At the end of the landing run, the wheels of the Heinkel 111 sank in the soft ground and the aircraft became blocked. The crew informed by radio the base at Banak of the mishap, and another aircraft took off, with tools, planks and beams aboard, to drop at the landing place for constructing a wooden path by the crew. After about 15 hours of hard work the crew succeeded to taxy out from the soft place and take off for Banak, where they landed in the early hours of the next day.

However that flight proved the feasibility of landing on the island and to set up there an automatic weather station in the coming months, when weather and the darkness of the polar night restricted the routine weather flights.

Meanwhile weather reconnaissance on the route to Nowaja Zemlya was flown about twice a week, the farthest position of turning back changing from the region of Belusha Buba to the coast of the northern island near Inostrantseva Bay.

On 29 September 1942 Rudolf Schütze took off from Banak, with an automatic weather station "Kröte" on board, to land on Meshdusharsskij and set up there the station, but due to bad weather and soft ground a landing was not possible and the aircraft returned to Banak.

Two weeks later the attempt was repeated, the aircraft landed at the island on the now frozen ground, with an escorting aircraft Heinkel 111 watching the scene.

While assembling the weather station, a Soviet MBR-2 flying boat from Belusha Buba arrived and tried to attack, but after several attempts it was driven off by the escorting aircraft.

As the action was now revealed, it was decided to abandon the mission, the main components of the weather station were loaded in the plane, and after a successful take-off both aircraft headed for their home base.

A Soviet search party landed few hours later, but could discover no more than battery cases and antenna masts, the taxying tracks of the aircraft confirmed its successful departure.

No more attempts were made in 1942 to set up automatic weather stations "Kröte" by aircraft in that area, even few days after that failure, another station was set up on Bear Island by the same crew, not before a labour party to clean a landing strip was landing by parachute.
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Re: The Troubled History of RAF Kaldadarnes

Post by Chromeboomerang » 06 Aug 2012 21:20

Exactly what Phylo didn't do. Plus he dodged the point of RAF twin engined planes landing at Kaldadarnes Aug 1940, ( 1 year before runway was complete, which he keeps posting).



"with tools, planks and beams aboard, to drop at the landing place for constructing a wooden path by the crew".


Couldn't be any more clear.


Danish meteorological society in 1928 could probably only afford Fokker D 7s. I doubt the Danish had many muti engined planes in 1928 as a besides. & if they did, the military would've kept them. Yet another non-point of irrelevance from Phylo to add to the multitudes. This air acitivity was only disbanded because of the depression, & lack of funding, not because of non-viability. Again we wait patiently for the the proofs JU 52s couldn't operate on grass, ( Stuka also), and the proofs that Germany could not build makeshift runways ay Iceland, yet "could" at Norway & Nowaya Zemla.

Proofs man proofs!

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Re: The Troubled History of RAF Kaldadarnes

Post by phylo_roadking » 06 Aug 2012 21:28

Plus he dodged the point of RAF twin engined planes landing at Kaldadarnes Aug 1940, ( 1 year before runway was complete, which he keeps posting).
Not dodged, dealt with previously in VERY great detail; twin-enegined aircraft did NOT land at Kaldadarnes in August 1940.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8#p1445540
On 26 July the squadron (No.98 Sqn - my note) left Gatwick on the first stage of its flight to Kaldadarnes, Iceland, a hastily prepared landing ground on the bank of the river Ölfusá, about 40 km southeast of Reykjavik. At the controls of L5343 was W/Cdr. G.R. Ashton, AFC, the squadron’s Commanding Officer. After a brief layover at RAF Newton where the Battles were serviced and their compasses swung, the squadron proceeded to Wick, Scotland, where L5343 landed on 2 August after spening a night at RAF Montrose due to weather.

On account of the Battles’ limited range the squadron was held up at Wick several weeks awaiting favourable weather for the crossing to Iceland and it was not until 27 August that the first section of 9 Battles led by W/Cdr. Ashton in L5343 took off for Iceland escorted by two Sunderlands. Five hours and twenty minutes later they all landed safely at Kaldadarnes, L5343 thereby allegedly becoming the first RAF aircraft to set its wheels on Icelandic soil. The rest of the squadron’s Battles joined those already in Iceland on 14 September.
Fairey Battles have just ONE engine...

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8#p1445546
The first three Hudson aircraft of No 269 Squadron arrived at Kaldadarnes on 12th April 1941; but only six days later, the fourth Hudson of No 269 Squadron arrived at Kaldaðarnes...
You are, like SO much else...wrong.
no proofs. I knew you didn't have it in you.
Really???

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8#p1445546
The following historical details come from the well-documented history of No. 269 Squadron, as laid out at http://www.oca.269squadron.btinternet.co.uk The yearly histories there are absolutely fascinating, but here I'm more interested in the history of the airfield at Kaldarnes, for it illustrates the problems with operating land aircraft from all fields on Iceland to one extent or another.
References and proofs provided two years ago in this thread.
Last edited by phylo_roadking on 06 Aug 2012 22:18, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The Troubled History of RAF Kaldadarnes

Post by phylo_roadking » 06 Aug 2012 21:38

"with tools, planks and beams aboard, to drop at the landing place for constructing a wooden path by the crew".

Couldn't be any more clear.
Oh you're so right :wink: BUT -
Again we wait patiently for the the proofs JU 52s couldn't operate on grass, ( Stuka also), and the proofs that Germany could not build makeshift runways ay Iceland, yet "could" at Norway & Nowaya Zemla.
...you don't seem to understand exactly WHAT very major oversight on your part you've made clear ;) I've tried to tell you exactly where to look for the answers, but it's JUST not working, is it... :roll:
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Re: The Troubled History of RAF Kaldadarnes

Post by phylo_roadking » 06 Aug 2012 21:49

Your most recent claim...
Plus he dodged the point of RAF twin engined planes landing at Kaldadarnes Aug 1940,
Fairey battle.
Loaded weight: 10,792 lb (4,895 kg)
...Irrelevant to that claim.
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Re: The Troubled History of RAF Kaldadarnes

Post by phylo_roadking » 06 Aug 2012 22:00

Yet relevant to your constant posting of biplanes, Fokker D 7, Avro V etc.
Hmmm...MY constant posting? It was you who claimed (without checking what the aircraft were, of course) that the two episodes involving these aircraft in 1919 and 1931 "proved" that Ju52s could land on Iceland.
Fairey battle.
Loaded weight: 10,792 lb (4,895 kg)
Fokker D-VII
Gross weight: 906 kg (1,997 lb)

Avro 504
Max. takeoff weight: 1,829 lb (830 kg)

Ju 52/3m g7e
Max. takeoff weight: 10,990 kg (24,200 lb)

It's such a pity you can't grasp that the weight of a loaded Ju52 was more than twelve times that of Cecil Faber's 504 on Iceland in 1919, or the Royal Netherlands Meterological Institute's borrowed Fokker D-VIIs...a Ju52 that in turn was also more than twice as heavy as a Fairey Battle!
They could operate out of unimproved, short air strips, inaccessible to other cargo aircraft.
http://www.aviationtrivia.info/Junkers-Ju-52.php
How short? :wink:
Last edited by phylo_roadking on 07 Aug 2012 02:37, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: The Troubled History of RAF Kaldadarnes

Post by David Thompson » 06 Aug 2012 23:19

Three posts from chromeboomerang, containing personal insults directed at another poster, were removed by this moderator, along with a now-unnecessary response - DT.

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Re: The Troubled History of RAF Kaldadarnes

Post by phylo_roadking » 16 Aug 2012 22:54

Well, I suppose its time to tell Chromeboomerang what he got very wrong; he's been trumpeting it every second post on another forum too...
it bears repeating the He 111 Nowaya Zemla runway material was transported in another HE 111. A few men in a HE 111 built a runway in 15 hours that 2 He 111's successfully took off from near the North Pole. Did we catch that?
"with tools, planks and beams aboard, to drop at the landing place for constructing a wooden path by the crew".
Couldn't be any more clear.
He 111 ran off Zowaya Zemla using wood planks!!! 15 hours of work
And to top it off, Heinkel 111 operating with wood at Nowaya Zemla.
...and the proofs that Germany could not build makeshift runways ay Iceland, yet "could" at Norway & Nowaya Zemla.
And right there we can see what he got wrong. I DID advise him to be more careful with what his source said...I even gave him a great big clue!
Here's a hint....
so, are you honestly claiming that ONE He 111 could transport ENOUGH wood planking to pave the entire length of an He 111's take off run?
So - given that the takeoff run for an He 111H is a whole 350 metres! - where exactly is his mistake? Right HERE -
A short time after the first "Kröte" station was set up on Spitsbergen in July 1942, the weather pilot Rudolf Schütze took off from Banak to ecploit a suitable position for another "Kröte" station on or near Nowaja Zemlya and attempted to land on 20 July on Meshdusharsskij Island At the end of the landing run, the wheels of the Heinkel 111 sank in the soft ground and the aircraft became blocked. The crew informed by radio the base at Banak of the mishap, and another aircraft took off, with tools, planks and beams aboard, to drop at the landing place for constructing a wooden path by the crew. After about 15 hours of hard work the crew succeeded to taxy out from the soft place and take off for Banak, where they landed in the early hours of the next day.
It's a very strage source, but one not untypical for this poster - a COMPLETELY unattibuted post on a PC gaming site! I've suggested before now he actually try and find out where the details come from, and if they're even correct...no reply :wink:

Chromeboomerang says this one short part of a sentence confirms that the crew of a single He 111 built a whole 350-metre RUNWAY suitable for an He 111 in 15 hours to let them fly off Meshdusharsky island....yet he hasn't even bothered confirming where the details come from, let alone if they're correct...

And he hasn't taken under his notice that the passage itself very specifically DOESN'T talk about constructing a WHOLE runway...just a planked portion "...at the end of the landing run" that allowed their He 111 "...taxy out from the soft place..."...THEN take off!

So where could the details have come from??? 8O 8O 8O After all - Chromeboomerang doesn't know!
Last edited by phylo_roadking on 16 Aug 2012 23:34, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Troubled History of RAF Kaldadarnes

Post by phylo_roadking » 16 Aug 2012 23:09

Well, given that one of the world's leading experts on the German meterological efforts in WWII is Franz Selinger - there's NO mention at all of ANY flights to Meshdusharsky Island in his German language article "Deutsche Automatische Wetterstationen in der Arktis 1942-1945" of 1983...

But Selinger DID co-author a MUCH more detailed account of the German efforts in WWII along with Prof. John Kington...the quite excellent "Wekusta: Luftwaffe Weather Reconnaissance Units & Operations 1938-1945" :wink: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wekusta-Luftwaf ... 312&sr=1-1

I wonder what they say about the events on Meshdusharsky Island??? Pgs 98-99...
... on 17 July [1942], for example, Schutze in He111-H-3, 1B+HH, surveyed the southern island of Novaya Zemlya for a possible location to set up an automatic weather station. Three days later, on the 20th, he attempted to land on Ostrov Mezhdusharky, a small island off southwest Novaya Zemlya. Although he succeeded in landing, the aircraft sank in the boggy tundra surface at the end of the landing run and could not be moved, even under full engine power. Schutze's wireless operator, FW Zeissler, sent an emergency message to Banak for tools and wood for the construction of a corduroy road TO harder ground to enable the stranded aircraft to takeoff. In response, Wagner took off from Banak on his 100th mission in He 111H-6, 1B+RH and dropped the requested material comprising logs, shovels, saws and an axe together with provisions for the stranded aircrew.
As the landing of Schutze had not been observed by any Soviet outpost or aircraft, the preparation of the corduroy road remained unmolested and eventually the aircraft was able to taxy [sic] TO harder ground. After about eighteen hours on enemy soil, Schutze and his comrades took off at 23:25 on the same day, landing at Banak in the early hours of 21 July. ...
In other words - and very clearly - Schutze successfully landed on hard, semi-frozen tundra...then bogged down at the end of his landing run, when his aircraft slowed down. The crew was dropped supplies and tools to allow them to build a "corduroy road" ONLY as far as the start of the hard semi-frozen tundra again! Once they were on hardened ground they were able to take off as normal without a wooden runway being necessary!

In other words - NO WOODEN RUNWAY! Just a short wooden taxi path to allow them to turn the aircraft and get back a few metres to where the ground wasn't boggy I.E. to where it had previously landed successfully! :wink:

No wooden runway - and no cigar. Tho' lots of wishful thinking and misinterpretation of an unsourced account...and a HUGE exaggeration that is not supported by the historical record.
Last edited by phylo_roadking on 17 Aug 2012 01:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Troubled History of RAF Kaldadarnes

Post by phylo_roadking » 16 Aug 2012 23:20

lots of wishful thinking...
I gave Chromeboomerang TWO other major clues. THIS was the first; I drew his attention repeatedly to THIS part of his PC gamer's account...about Schutze's SECOND attempt to land at the Meshdusharsky Island site! :wink:
On 29 September 1942 Rudolf Schütze took off from Banak, with an automatic weather station "Kröte" on board, to land on Meshdusharsskij and set up there the station, but due to bad weather and soft ground a landing was not possible and the aircraft returned to Banak.
...for it made absolutely no sense that IF a "wooden runway" had been constucted earlier, that it wasn't still useable only a few weeks later! Did it vanish? Did the Arctic fairies run away with it??? No - there never was one!

Confirming this - I wonder what Kington and Selinger said about THIS flight??? :wink:
Next Schutze attempted to confirm that landing conditions on Mezhdusharsky would be suitable even in the winter and on 25 September he started a new survey with He 111H-6, 1B+RH. However on initial touchdown, the ground was found to be still soft and not frozen, as expected. Also in view of deteriorating weather, the sortie was abandoned and he returned to Banak after a mission lasting 9 hours 29 minutes.
In other words - Chromeboomerang's unattibutable PC gamers' account is incorrect - a landing WAS made...except this time Schutze just didn't allow his aircraft to bog down :wink:

What is ALSO very clear is that there was no "wooden runway " there to be found...and Schutze wasn't expecting to find one anyway!!!
Next Schutze attempted to confirm that landing conditions on Mezhdusharsky would be suitable even in the winter and on 25 September he started a new survey with He 111H-6, 1B+RH. However on initial touchdown, the ground was found to be still soft and not frozen, as expected
He was flying to Mezhdusharsky Island to test landing conditions on the tundra...Not on any non-existent wooden runway!

So what was the second clue???
Last edited by phylo_roadking on 16 Aug 2012 23:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Troubled History of RAF Kaldadarnes

Post by phylo_roadking » 16 Aug 2012 23:24

Well, I'd already posted up a pic of an aircraft having to park up on wood to avoid sinking in muddy, boggy ground....but a wooden runway was not needed to take off??? :wink:

Remember our old friends the Royal Netherlands Meterological Institute???

Image

:D
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