Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Postby wm » 18 Jan 2014 23:26

They are not descendants of prospective parents. Actually those unborns are playing on the German side. More unborns means less Polish victims of the WW2.
This is because we are trying to subtract the number of Poles in 1945 from the estimated number of Poles for that year - assuming no WW2. So the number of unborns caused by WW2 is needed.

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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Postby wm » 18 Jan 2014 23:30

Cerdic wrote:does this take into account the pre-war and wartime German citizens who after the war were treated as ethnic Poles? If Peter K is right that they numbered about 1.1 million and these statistics dont take them into account, true number of Polish victims may be closer to 3.3 million.

Well, I totally forgot about them. 1.1M is the number of people claiming during the '50 census that they lived on the "regained lands" before 1945.

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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Postby Peter K » 19 Jan 2014 03:09

wm wrote:1.1M is the number of people claiming during the '50 census that they lived on the "regained lands" before 1945.


Not exactly, wm.

This is the number of so called "nationally verified autochthons" who were allowed to stay. Vast majority of them were counted as ethnic Poles, so they need to be included when we count Polish losses in WW2 by comparing number of Poles before and after the war (they were counted as Poles after WW2, but not in 1939 - because at that time they were citizens of Germany).

Most of those 1,1 million lived in Silesia - mainly in German part (as of 1939) of Upper Silesia and in Opole Silesia.

107,626 of those autochthons lived in Olsztyn Voivodeship as of year 1950 (Warmiaks and Mazurs). Vast majority (ca. 1 million) out of those 1,1 million were counted as Poles. Only in Opole Silesia some number of Germans was among them.

I will post more about this issue later, when I get access to my sources.

===============================================

people claiming during the '50 census that they lived on the "regained lands" before 1945.


And there is no reason to disbelieve them (if you had such a thing in your mind).

For example the number of positively "nationally verified" Mazurs and Warmiaks until April 1949 was 106,717. All of those 106,717 were of course granted Polish citizenship (they did not have it, because they were citizens of Germany before WW2).

By the end of 1949 further 2,625 Mazurs and Warmiaks were recognized as "suitable for national verification".

I don't have info how many of those 2,625 were verified positively, and how many were recognized as Germanized.

But then in the 1950 census, in total 107,626 people in Olsztyn Voivodeship declared to be autochthons.

These numbers match perfectly.

All of those who were were not positively "nationally verified", had of course been already deported by 1950 as Germans.

Only in Opole Silesia region, a relatively significant (numbering thousands) number of Germans was allowed to stay.
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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Postby Davey Boy » 19 Jan 2014 06:30

Peter K wrote:Only in Opole Silesia region, a relatively significant (numbering thousands) number of Germans was allowed to stay.


Do you know why by any chance?

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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Postby Peter K » 19 Jan 2014 11:09

Do you know why by any chance?


Because they were considered as only recently Germanized, many of them were bilingual people (German-Polish). Out of 1 million people who lived in Opole Silesia by the time of liberation in 1945, only 220,000 were deported and 780,000 were allowed to stay.

Among them some who were counted as "Germans", but only "slightly Germans". ;)

After 1945 there was a similar system of classification as that of Nazi Germany's idea of Volksdeutshe - during WW2 were 4 classes of Volksdeutsche. The "national verification" after 1945 was determining who is "Volkspolnische" and who is not. ;)

Those Germans who were allowed to stay, were considered as such "Germanized" but still "Volkspolnische".

In case of Volksdeutsche Nazi Germany distinguished 4 classes. Classes 3rd and 4th were Eingedeutschte and Rückgedeutschte - they were Polish-speaking people, who were counted as "partially Polonized" or "Polonized" Germans by Nazi Germany.

Ethnic boundaries, let alone national boundaries, were never clear - they were always blurred.

=======================================================================

Below some linguistic maps of Silesia in various periods (1650, 1790, 1890s):

http://historum.com/european-history/59 ... stcount=60

Oppeln = Opole

silesia1895.gif


Silesia2a.jpg


Silesia XVII.jpg
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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Postby Davey Boy » 19 Jan 2014 13:26

^ Thanks.

By the way, from Snyder's "Bloodlands".

Poland probably lost about a million non-Jewish civilians to the Germans and about a hundred thousand more to the Soviets. Perhaps another million Poles died as a result of mistreatment or as casualties of war.

...

Of the more than four million Polish citizens murdered by the Germans, about three million were Jews.

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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Postby Cerdic » 19 Jan 2014 13:40

Image

Off topic, but interesting that Breslau had a Polish majority even in the 1600s. :wink:

Re: The one million figure: If this is only those directly murdered, it surely is too high? But if it also includes some technically in the "mistreatment" category, it is too low.

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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Postby Peter K » 19 Jan 2014 15:44

Off topic, but interesting that Breslau had a Polish majority even in the 1600s.


Most of the patricians were already German-speaking I suppose. But patricians weren't the majority in any Medieval town. In all Medieval towns most of population were commoners. Breslau since the 1400s until the 1600s was the major center of printing Polish-language texts. First texts ever printed in Polish were printed in Breslau (only later they started to appear in Cracow).

Poland lost political control over Silesia (at to the Kingdom of Bohemia, Habsburgs and then to Prussia during the 1700s) in the 1300s up to the 1700s (last Silesian duchies were incorporated directly to the Kingdom of Bohemia in the 1700s), but it doesn't mean that Polish-language disappeared from that area together with Polish political presence. The loss of political control of course meant that the Silesian elites (including also patricians in towns) were going to gradually lose the knowledge of Polish language.

The same process took place in England after the Norman Conquest in 1066. Normans were French-speaking people.

The higher classes of England became and remained French-speaking since 1066 until around 1400. A very large part of modern English vocabulary has French origins, even though the syntax and grammar remained similar to those in Old English language.

In Lower Silesia linguistic boundary was later shaped more or less along religious lines.

I.e. Catholics remained (or became) Polish-speakers, while Lutherans became (or remained) German-speakers. But that was during later centuries, after the Counterreformation, since the 17th century until the 19th century and the early 20th century. There were still many Polish-speaking Lutherans in Silesa in the 20th century, but most of them voted for Germany during the 1921 plebiscite. Otto von Bismarck persecuted mostly Catholics, so he contributed to the growth of Polish nationalism mostly among Catholics.

In fact Otto von Bismarck was the person who "Polonized" Silesia, because he persecuted Polish-speaking German citizens.

Bismarck's attempts of Germanizing Polish-speaking Silesian Catholics produced exactly opposite results to expected.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Postby Peter K » 19 Jan 2014 16:09

Of the more than four million Polish citizens murdered by the Germans, about three million were Jews.


Now question is, do we count Polish-speaking Jews as Jews or as Poles?

Pre-war authorities of Poland counted them as Poles - Judaistic Poles (Polonized Jews) - rather than Jews.

The following religious groups were counted among the ethnic Poles in the 1931 census:

Roman Catholic Poles - 20,273,023
Orthodox Poles - 497,290
Greek Catholic Poles - 487,034
Judaistic Poles - 371,821
Evangelical Poles - 218,993
Other Poles (Atheists, Muslims, etc.) - 85,279

However, it is believed, that the number of Orthodox Poles and Greek Catholic Poles was inflated in this census.

Inflating (by counting unclear cases and those who called themselves "locals" as Poles) the number of Orthodox and Greek Catholic Poles was an attempt to improve - on paper - Polish-Ukrainian and Polish-Belarussian proportions in the eastern regions.

If we want to establish how many Poles were there in 1939, we must take into account the population growth between 1931 and 1939 as well as the possibility that the number of Orthodox and Greek Catholic Poles in the 1931 census could be inflated. Then we have the issue of victims among ethnic Polish Jews (i.e. Jews whose mother tongue was Polish - not Yiddish or Hebrew). Perhaps such Poles were counted already as Jewish victims - so counting them again as Poles would mean counting the same people twice.

================================

I will post more about problems with counting ethnic Polish losses in WW2 this Monday or this Tuesday.
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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Postby Peter K » 21 Jan 2014 11:30

Number of people with Polish mother tongue according to 1931 census - 21,933,440 (which was 68,72% of the total population of Poland at that time - 31,915,779). Of them 371,821 were Judaistic, 487,034 Greek Catholic, 497,290 Orthodox and 20,577,295 others.

Believers of Judaism whose mother tongue was not Polish but Yiddish, Hebrew or other numbered 2,742,112 in 1931. Polish authorities counted believers of Judaism with Polish language were counted as "Poles", those with other language as "Jews".

Image

There are different population estimates for year 1939:

- 34,800,000 / 35,100,000 / 35,500,000

Ratio of population increase between 1931 and 1939:

- 1,09037 / 1,09977 / 1,11231

If we apply this ratio of increase to the number of Poles in 1931, we get:

- 23,915,564 / 24,121,739 / 24,396,784 Poles in 1939 (within the 1931 borders of Poland)

Of them:

Judaistic - 405,422 / 408,918 / 413,580
Greek Catholic - 531,047 / 535,625 / 541,733
Orthodox - 542,230 / 546,905 / 553,141

Others - 22,436,865 / 22,630,291 / 22,888,330

This is - of course - number of Poles in Poland. Polish-speaking minorities in neighbouring countries are not included.

To this number, we must add number of Poles who lived in territories annexed by Poland from Czechoslovakia in 1938.

===================================================

According to Polish census on 14.02.1946 population of Poland within new borders was 23,929,757. Among them there were still 3,409,579 non-Poles and 20,520,178 Poles - including 2,571,625 in the Regained Lands (grey territories in the map above).

Division for age groups of the 23,929,757 population of Poland (Poles and non-Poles) as of 14.02.1946 was the following:

0 - 17 y.o. - 8,667,547 (question is how many of them were born in period 01.09.1939 - 14.02.1946)
18 - 59 y.o. - 12,851,750
60 and more y.o. - 2,106,138 (or it should be rather 2,410,460 ???)

Number of Poles in the Regained Lands included so called autochthons - whose number was ca. 1,1 million. This means that apart from Polish-speaking autochthons in former German territories, there were ca. 19,42 million Poles in Poland as of 1946.

That number of course included an estimated (at least) 1,4 - 1,5 million people who were born during and after WW2.

So number of pre-war Poles (who were alive on 01.09.1939) was in February 1946 around 17,92 to 18,02 million.

That of course included Poles deported from the Soviet Union (not all of them, but already vast majority):

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wysiedleni ... ych.5B1.5D

Number of Poles repatriated, deported or expelled from areas annexed by the Soviet Union is estimated (according to wikipedia) as up to 1,843,222 (high estimate) in period 1944 - 1946. Later in years 1955 - 1959 the 2nd repatriation took place, and it included further 245,501 Poles. According to Soviet 1959 census (after the 2nd repatriation) there were still 363,300 Poles in Soviet Ukraine, 538,881 Poles in Soviet Belarus and 230,000 Poles in Soviet Lithuania. But not all of them lived in pre-1939 Polish territories, some of them lived further eastward, in territories which even already in 1939 belonged to the Soviet Union.

Data from 1950 census shows, that 72,6% of Poles from the Soviet Union (those who came in 1944 - 1946) settled in the Regained Lands, while 27,4% of them settled in the Former Lands (i.e. pre-war Poland apart from what was annexed by the USSR).

Poles who came to Poland from the USSR were 2,137,000 in 1950 - but this includes also small children of those families:

Image

=====================================

During wartime number of new born children was also much smaller than before 1939, but I included this fact above.

The next problem we are facing is - what was the natural mortality ratio?

Another problem is how many Polish refugees remained in Great Britain and other parts of Western Europe?

To be continued...
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Postby Peter K » 22 Jan 2014 23:41

Poland before and after the war:

http://s18.postimg.org/5c1nq4wyx/Poland_change.png

Poland_change.png


Peter K wrote:Data from 1950 census shows, that 72,6% of Poles from the Soviet Union (those who came in 1944 - 1946) settled in the Regained Lands, while 27,4% of them settled in the Former Lands (i.e. pre-war Poland apart from what was annexed by the USSR).

Poles who came to Poland from the USSR were 2,137,000 in 1950 - but this includes also small children of those families:

Image


Or even more than 2,137,000 - because according to another data, only in the Regained Lands lived 1,652,000 of them already in 1947 (and excluding the Free City of Danzig). So maybe 2,137,000 in 1950 included only those born before 01.09.1939?:

From Leszek Kosiński's book "Procesy Ludnościowe na Ziemiach Odzyskanych...":

Central Poland (see below) = that area of 209,900 km2 which was Polish both before and after WW2:

Image

Data from 1950 census shows, that 72,6% of Polish repatriates from the Soviet Union (those who came in 1944 - 1946) settled in the Regained Lands, while 27,4% of them settled in the Former Lands (i.e. pre-war Poland apart from what was annexed by the USSR).

But it says, that the number of repatriates in the Regained Lands in 1950 was 1550 thousand (not 1652 thousand as data posted above from 1947 say). It is, however, possible, that data from 1950 counts only people who were born before 01.09.1939. Because that was the question in that census (the question asked in that 1950 census was: "where did you live on 01.09.1939 when the war started"):

Image

I must check the nature of these figures and why there is a difference (1652 thousand in 1947 / 1550 thousand in 1950).
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There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Postby Cerdic » 26 Jan 2014 18:28

There is a discussion of the nationally verified autochthons beginning at page 172 here http://www.hungarianhistory.com/lib/vardy/vardy.pdf

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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Postby Peter K » 28 Jan 2014 01:06

Yes but it deals specifically with Masurians / Mazurs as far as I can see, and not with other groups of autochthons.

Author also forgot about Polish-speaking Warmiaks - who also lived in East Prussia, but were Catholic (unlike Protestant Mazurs).

In the essay linked below, you can read about Masurians too (and on how German nationalism evolved during the 1800s):

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=515712

=============================

Ok, now I see that there is another article which deals with Silesian autochthons after the one about Mazurs.

BTW - in this article about Silesian autochthons there is such a statement by its author:

the Polish administration conducted and enforced Polonization of Silesian geographical names


I'm not sure what he means by "Polonization", but those names were not "invented" after 1945. Silesian geographical names were originally Polish. And Polish names were in use alongside German until the mid-19th century at least.

Below is a document known as the Patent of Frederick II which was published in 1750 shortly after the conquest of Silesia by the Kingdom of Prussia. It was published in two versions - German and Polish. Below is a Polish version.

It contains the Polish names of major Lower Silesian and Upper Silesian cities:

Image

And here a larger version:

Patent Fryderyka II 1750 rok.jpg
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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Postby Peter K » 28 Jan 2014 02:03

In articles which you quoted Cedric, authors question the "Polishness" of autochthons and argue for their "Germanness".

However vague and changeable are such things like national identity (I myself have both some Kashubians and some Germans among my ancestors, yet I consider myself Polish), for the purpose of this discussion about demographic losses of Polish people in WW2 it is not really the issue how those people thought of themselves (whether they considered themselves as more German or Polish or someone in-between, or someone totally distinct from both, etc.), but how they were counted in official documents.

And as the matter of fact, Communist Poland counted them as Poles in its official population censuses after 1945.

So if we want to establish demographic losses of Poles during WW2 basing on comparison of the number of Poles in 1939 and the number of Poles in 1945, then we need to count those autochthons as Poles, or we will arrive at a false number of demographic losses.

And that's because those people were counted as Germans in the 1930s (in German population censuses), but they were later counted as Poles in Polish censues after 1945. So after 1945 they contributed to "replacing" demographic losses of Polish people.

It also does not matter in this thread, how many of them later emigrated from Poland during the 1970s and the 1980s.

What matters is only the number of autochthons who were counted as Poles in population censuses of 1946, 1947, 1950.

The decrease of the number of people declaring themselves "Masurians" in the 1970s can be also attributed to their gradual assimilation with the rest of the Polish society, not only to their economically-motivated gradual emigration to West Germany.

=================================================

But there are also other problems - all of which result from the fact that nationality / ethnicity are in fact vague terms.

For example - how should we count demographic losses of those Jews, who declared Polish as their mother tongue?

Those were technically Jews only because they were adherents of Judaism. But were they of Jewish nationality?

During the 1931 census only Yiddish-speaking and Hebrew-speaking Jews were counted as ethnically Jewish people.

Polish-speaking believers of Judaism were counted among ethnic Polish people in the 1931 census. Was that a mistake of Polish census takers? Well, I think it wasn't. I think a "mistake" would be inventing 1/2 Jews and 1/4 Jews as Nazi Germany did... :roll:

Those were known as "Halbjuden" (1/2 Jews) and "Vierteljuden" (1/4 Jews) in Nazi Germany.

In Poland Jews - no matter 1/4 or 1/2 or 1/1 - were counted as Poles if only they spoke Polish as primary language.

So not counting them among the losses of the Polish nation during WW2, would be - in my opinion - a mistake.
There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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Re: Poland: ~6 million or ~10 million victims of WW2 ?

Postby Sid Guttridge » 28 Jan 2014 11:30

Surely, Poland went to war as a specific geo-political entity with an enumerated citizenry within its boundaries.

Polish wartime fatalities are surely therefore those from amongst that enumerated citizenry of 1939 who died from non-natural, war-related causes over 1939-1945.

That includes ethnic Germans, Jews, Ukrainians, Byelorussians, Gorals, Kashubes, etc.

One can then, if one so wishes, then break this headline figure down by ethnicity, or add in post-war losses of displaced persons, or add in Polish-Americans, Franco-Poles, Germanized Poles, etc., etc., to suit one's purpose, which appears to be what is happening here.

That said, the sources and statistics emerging in this thread are fascinating.

Cheers,

Sid.


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