An example of a "Model WI" is needed

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Von Schadewald
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Re: An example of a "Model WI" is needed

Post by Von Schadewald » 18 Jul 2010 21:22

I may be simple or sumfin', but I really thought that in my latest thread
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1&t=168118
on Ploesti that I give a POV in accordance with PeterOT.

Can the Moderator or someone clearly explain exactly what in that thread I have to tweak to prevent the thread being locked.

Has the Moderator an example of a Model WI that he himself has formulated, for us to emulate?

PeterOT wrote:VS,
Propose a change in events that was at the very least realistic given what did happen & was possible & then propose what changes you think this would have made to history. Tell us why you think these would happen. A bit of detail would help. .
Last edited by Von Schadewald on 18 Jul 2010 21:49, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: An example of a "Model WI" is needed

Post by Von Schadewald » 18 Jul 2010 21:30

I try not to let my threads be 'bogged down', as per Rodoss72, and I thought that my thread on an invasion of Saudi Arabia http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1&t=167976 was in context, plausible and pretty focused, but was obviously not limited or focused enough!
Roddoss72 wrote:I think that many problems of the WI section stems from that too many poster labour on one part of the WI, as you know some threads go for more than 12 pages, but for almost all is bogged down on one aspect, very rarely WI move past this stage. For me if a thread goes past two pages and is bogged down by semantics then it should be locked and removed completely and all posts are deleted from those who contribute, too many contributers that add their two cents worth are only cyber chaffing, meaning adding nothing to the thread but only to bolster their post counts.

vS has a point, i have seen some posts locked as soon as they have been posted by the mods without much than a nondescript line that leaves many confused. Also onto POD's i have been involved in school debates, when one factor is changed in any WI, the whole future is changed, and anything that occurs after that follows a natural timeline, that means multi POD's.

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Andy H
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Re: An example of a "Model WI" is needed

Post by Andy H » 18 Jul 2010 21:49

Von Schadewald wrote:I may be simple or sumfin', but I really thought that in my latest thread
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 1&t=168118
on Ploesti that I give a POV in accordance with PeterOT.

Can the Moderator or someone clearly explain exactly what in that thread I have to tweak to prevent the thread being locked.

PeterOT wrote:VS,
Propose a change in events that was at the very least realistic given what did happen & was possible & then propose what changes you think this would have made to history. Tell us why you think these would happen. A bit of detail would help. .
Hi

I've asked you to give us a POV, and a POV, especially when beginning a thread, shouldn't be a quick one liner with little in the way of content or context.

You have provided a link this time (which will help people with little or no knowledge of the matter) which is a step in the right dierection.

The another '50 bombers' line is not required, because as a another member stated what premise do you have for these 50 causing the scenario of your WI! Already this a cause for the thread becoming unstable.

Then at the bottom of your first post, you don't pose a question, but more a statement of fact as you see it-Thus exactly what are we to debate? Without you defining the debate it will quickly founder.

Again you've used pictures, without due acknowledgement of there source, and though I understand the map is a situational one, you should explain what its showing in relation to your post. So for example-Below is a map of the Eastern Front dated xx/xx/xxxx, and it shows ................... etc

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Andy H

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Andy H
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Re: An example of a "Model WI" is needed

Post by Andy H » 18 Jul 2010 21:58

I try not to let my threads be 'bogged down', as per Rodoss72, and I thought that my thread on an invasion of Saudi Arabia viewtopic.php?f=11&t=167976 was in context, plausible and pretty focused, but was obviously not limited or focused enough!
Hi again

The WI had changed its parameters several times that anyone new coming to rea it for the first time would be hard pressed to know exactly what the WI was about in terms of its focus. You tried to reign in its scope somewhat, but you didn't re-define the WI to such a degree that it was feasible in its conception

It would have been easier to pose a much simplier WI stating WI the Iraqi Army continued south into S.Arabia and captured the main oilfields. What would happen next? In my view I think the following would occur (At this juncture its vital not to let the possible effects get to far away from the reality of the OTL) and how & why.

Regards again

Andy H

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RE: Beauty Is All In The Eye Of The Beholder.

Post by Robert Rojas » 21 Jul 2010 06:33

Greetings to both citizen Von Schadewald and the community as a whole. Well V.S., in light of your installment of Monday - July 12, 2010 - 6:13pm, old Uncle Bob would like to convey his genuine appreciation for your wealth of hypothetical scenarios that you have contributed to the WHAT IF section of the forum since your arrival to this august forum on Tuesday - November 16, 2004 - 11:17pm. And yes, we have had more than our fair share of differences over the past six years but I would have to say that your varied creations have kept old yours truly on his toes. If anything, your ever evolving and often diverging creations only reinforce what was instilled in me during my association with the United States Army - BE FLEXIBLE and know when to cut your losses. Now, for whatever this little bit of input is worth to you, I personally feel that any notion of a "MODEL WHAT IF" scenario is subjectively akin to any notion of a "REAL JOB" - there is simply no such animal! In short, I would not dwell over something that does not exist and neither should anyone else for that matter. It's just some friendly food for thought. Humble pie anyone? Well, that's my initial two Yankee cents worth on this theoretical topic of interest - for now anyway. As always, I would like to bid you a copacetic day over in your colorful recess of the proverbial WHAT IF reality.

Best Regards,
Uncle Bob :idea: :|
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it" - Robert E. Lee

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Re: An example of a "Model WI" is needed

Post by Von Schadewald » 21 Jul 2010 13:22

Thanks for that, Uncle Bob!

By "varied contributions", you mean the following WI scenarios that I have started on this forum:



August 1990: Saddam rolls on in to Saudi Arabia
September 1943:successful "Tidal Wave" saves "Panther Wotan"
An earlier 'Doolittle' raid
Fischfang slaughter's Anzio's whale
German reaction to the "Rampant Boar" in the Ruhr
August 1945: Stalin leaves it too late
Graf Spee docks at Buenos Aires
Japanese Banzai charge with panzerfausts
Avro Manchester instead of Lancaster
Kamikazes party crash Tokyo Bay surrender ceremony
Total Isandhlwana wipe-out
Flak vs V1s
Reverse Dieppe: Germans take Dover
1983 Foot wins:a nuclear weapon-free Britain
ARA battles RN in Port Stanley Harbour
Nightfighter vs Nachtjaeger
More Soviet pilots over Korea
Werner von Braun: war criminal 1980
1981 Egyptian-Israel War
No D-Day in 1944
British in Vietnam 1965
"Broken Arrow" at La Drang: No Vietnam War
USA rushes in to prevent German invasion of the UK
Lanc vs Grief: bomber formation gun turret duel
Axis deals some telling parting shots
1967: British take on Nasser a second time
In all scenarios the Poles are wasted
No Atlantic Wall: a sooner invasion?
1983 Beirut bombings: US invades Lebanon
1978: Egyptian Larnaca raid drags in everyone
Turks remain neutral in WW1 & WW2
Kursk success: D Day postponed indefinitely
Hitler flees to Japan
1968 Grosvenor Square Riot bloodbath
More German raiders
1956: Israel stays in Sinai
German intruders
No Arctic Convoys
The Axis drops in on the Levant
Rommel strikes West: "Vorwaerts nach Tangiers!"
A nights-only Battle over the Reich
Earlier drop-tanks
USS Reuben James: an earlier "Drumbeat"
Lightfoot Fails: Afrika Korps destroyed sooner
Skyraider over Germany
An Argentinian Army Victory in the Falklands War
8" slugfest: Two Counties vs Prinz Eugen
More Uhus
Napoleon escapes to the Americas & raises more cain
Bullpup in the 50s
A western Fruhlingserwachen
Aussies & Canucks swap places
General Vlasov's 2 million man army
Boarding & ramming in WW2
The Mighty 8th goes nocturnal
Stymie Japan before Germany via the Aleutians
D Day: 1 May 1944
Lawrence of Arabia in WWII
Rosselsprung: Tito captured
A massive natural disaster during WW2 stops the fighting
An uninterceptable doodlebug
Trans-Atlantik bombing
Sanger Silverbird: Luftwaffe in Orbit
500 Greif available in 1943
British avoid massacre at Omaha Beach?
The Axis gets lucky in 43
Take no prisoners!
D Day at Calais
Churchill becomes PM in 1939: No Phony War
1817 War of 1812
No atom bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki
Soixante-quinze vs Schwarzlose
A Nazi Al Qaeda1914: Field Marshall Baden-Powell reduces British losses
Aden 1967: "arsehole" of the world
Churchill & Roosevelt drown on the Augusta 1941
Red Coats at the Little Big Horn
Luftwaffe relieves Stalingrad
Churchill's "Eastern Plan"
A nights only BOB
1948: Altalena not sunk
No Spitfeuer
Two factories destroyed cost British the war
Vorwaerts nach Palestina
Two factories destroyed cost British the war
Bigger British Free Corps
1947 Resolution 181: Israel rejected
Earlier Gatlings
20th Mountain Army sent to the Western Front
Japan nuked in October 1945: bigger Soviet Far East Empire
Operation Thursady wipeout
Bomber Command go daylight
Japanese land on Alaska 1941
Panama Canal destroyed 1941
No Atlantik Wall
Soviets beat Finland > bigger Afrika Korps
Von Manteuffel promoted sooner
Dresden not bombed
Taranto failure>no Pearl Harbor
31 August 1939: Poles preempt
KM bombards UK 1939
A Hannukah Battle of the Bulge
Germans fight on one more month
D Day lands on Antwerp
King George VI and Queen Elizabeth killed
Italian Battle of the Bulge
Great flu Pandemic of 1917
200 V rockets per hour
Germans discover H2S too late
A world Kamikaze war
Better use made of Yamato
A Biscay D Day
K class steam submarines in WW2
Balearics
Oswald Mosely free during WW2
Adolf makes it to the Emerald Isle
Von Hindenburg lives until 1940
Germany seizes the Bosphorus
Indiannapolis sunk before delivering Hiroshima uranium
Japan goes West
Woe Karelia 1945
Going the whole hog: D-Day landing on Germany herself
Scharnhorst escapes
Quantity over Kwaliteit
Der Fuhrer's 1942 world tour
Monty held at El Alamein
Germans not needed in the Balkans
Convoy JW55A
No slaughter on Western Front
Pearl Harbor radar acted on
Market Garden cancelled at last minute
"36 Hours" really happened
Japan seals off the Aussies & Kiwis
Calais D-Day - a shorter, costlier war
A mini WW2 Jutland
German fallschirm drop on south east England
Alternative Tirpitz
Flocks of Spruce Geese
German Cam ships
Hitler & Goebbels Nuremburg
Leyte Gulf goes to the Rising Sun
An impregnable German air defence
Valhalla ride of the panzers
Beyond Murmansk-Ufa-Astrakhan
Battle of the Atlantik won in 1942
Super Dieppe
An earlier BOB
American paras at Arnhem
More British battleships lost
Trafalgar Avenged: French sink Hood at Oran
Bismark returns the way she came
40 XXIs in action in 1945
Smaller Battle of the Bulge: Patton captured
Queen Mary torpedoed: a US division deep-sixed
French sub Surcouf vs. German Raider
Revenge of the Matilda: Arras success leads to worse Dunkirk
A better Steinbock
1943: Belfast vs Scharnhorst
WI Cruiser Blucher not lost in 1940
Morgenthau Plan implemented: Germany levelled
Rommel in Jerusalem: Asia Korps
Best Kursk
Hood sinks Bismarck causes Allies to lose the war
Last edited by Von Schadewald on 21 Jul 2010 16:10, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: An example of a "Model WI" is needed

Post by Roddoss72 » 21 Jul 2010 14:53

I am at a lost to what constitutes a decent original thread these days, because if repetition is the sole reason for threads being locked then i would say that the last 78 pages worth of threads should be locked.

I understand why some threads get locked, but other that obviously should be locked aren't. It is a complet hit and miss affair.

I have to say that i am upset and disgusted that my thread Avro Manchester was locked and only 8 posts into it, i had searched the topic and none of the other Avro Manchester threads pertained to my argument, not only that i also included the Handley Page Halifax.

I am also confused that as a far as i know that not one thead started by any of the moderators has been locked, if so then direct me that thread. Also i believe that once a thread has been locked for what ever reason the whole thread should be deleted permenantly.

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Re: An example of a "Model WI" is needed

Post by Roddoss72 » 21 Jul 2010 14:59

Is it just a coincidence that the last four threads that were locked were mine (2) and von Schadenwald's (2)

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Re: An example of a "Model WI" is needed

Post by Baltasar » 21 Jul 2010 15:19

Roddoss72 wrote:I am at a lost to what constitutes a decent original thread these days, because if repetition is the sole reason for threads being locked then i would say that the last 78 pages worth of threads should be locked.
Repetition is not necessarily a reason. Not providing a feasible scenario is.

Roddoss72 wrote:Is it just a coincidence that the last four threads that were locked were mine (2) and von Schadenwald's (2)
I'd rather suspect that the decision wheter or not a thread is closed lies within it's possibility of actually occuring. In your last thread, the one about the Avro Mancester in a dive bomber role, you asked:
What If the Avro Manchester became the pre-dominant heavy Bomber/Dive Bomber and the RAF was forced to use it throughout the war, this also pertains to the twin engined Handley Page Halifax.
As others wrote in the thread, the concept of close air support was not unfamiliar within the British armed forces, but the role was filled with lighter aircraft. The Germans really only employed their single engine Stuka for such purposes. I suspect your thread was locked because you didn't give a reason why the RAF or the British air ministry should try to convert a twin engined aircraft into that role when that aircraft already had problems with it's engines. Having a crew of seven in that plane wouldn't help much and the interior bombload would also be a problem for safety and aiming when diving. Then we have to re-evaluate the airframe so it can stand the stress of diving and climbing out of a dive, which would probably reduce the payload it could carry to neglectible levels. Furthermore, an aircraft that large will face problems aiming at fast moving targets, ie tanks. Even destroyers might prove difficult to hit due to the rather cumberstone handling of such a big aircraft.


In the other thread you probably mentioned, you tried to paint a scenario where US and UK fleets clash during WWI. Again, you failed to provide a reason why they would do so. The points you brought forward were disproved and the people who did so, did also write down why they thought so.


von Schadewalds threads, on the other hand, were probably closed for the reasons Andy gave earlier already.

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Re: An example of a "Model WI" is needed

Post by Von Schadewald » 21 Jul 2010 16:40

I too am a bit miffed that some of my threads have been locked. The Moderator runs a tight shop, but as of late has become a tad too tight, and also inconsistent in application of "the rules", IMO. I'll continue to contribute to other people's WI threads, but I won't be initiating any more here, as to see an original WI idea, the flower of one's thought process and imagination, so swiftly locked, in disuasion of the pursuit of novel human knowledge, and being that as we get older we cannot always maintain the high 'WI literary' standards that are nominally required, is too bitter a pill to swallow. I see that decorum and focus is maintained on other laxer military WI/AH forums, with only occasional recourse to locking.

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Re: An example of a "Model WI" is needed

Post by Andy H » 21 Jul 2010 18:32

Rodderick you wrote:
I am at a lost to what constitutes a decent original thread these days, because if repetition is the sole reason for threads being locked then I would say that the last 78 pages worth of threads should be locked.
Repetition is rarely the sole reason but that’s not to say it isn’t used on occasion, where the Moderator feels it justified to do so. A lot of failed threads over the years have been very repetitive because those authors have been lazy in their concept for the WI, and so it quickly turns into a mess.
I understand why some threads get locked, but other that obviously should be locked aren't. It is a complete hit and miss affair.
Equally I will get other members with the opposite view, demanding I close certain threads and re-open others. It all depends on your viewpoint and on the Moderators. Now I don’t suggest that every decision I or others have made has been 100% correct, but it’s always been done with the 100% best intentions for the WI section. Saying all that, this section was in real danger of being removed altogether several years ago because it had no structure. I and others have worked hard on keeping it open, and though the structure isn’t perfect we have tried to provide an environment where plausible WI’s can thrive. I make no apology for wanting those who propose Alien Space Bat WI’s to go elsewhere for there fix.

Many authors of WI’s post the initial question and then either walk away or they ignore the concerns raised within it. On these occasions it’s left to the Moderator to try and make sense from the debris therein. Equally some threads are closed because out of sheer exasperation with the posters. The internet seems to give people the god given right to having the last word and cannot stop themselves from getting involved in a slanging match. I find myself on these occasions just plain tired of trying to justify my actions whilst they themselves act in a manner totally unwarranted.
I have to say that I am upset and disgusted that my thread Avro Manchester was locked and only 8 posts into it, I had searched the topic and none of the other Avro Manchester threads pertained to my argument, not only that I also included the Handley Page Halifax.
Well I’m sorry that you feel that way. Though you had researched it, the thread was already getting into the same old same old over engines etc that we had only just finished with in the other Manchester thread. I didn’t feel that we needed to get bogged down in all the failing of the Manchester (no matter what scenario was put forth) so quickly after the last thread. I have noted in the guidelines/rules that threads that revolve around specific pieces of equipment have tended to produce weak WI’s. The ability of a single piece of hardware to achieve what some posters propose beggars belief at time.
I am also confused that as a far as I know that not one thread started by any of the moderators has been locked, if so then direct me that thread. Also I believe that once a thread has been locked for what ever reason the whole thread should be deleted permanently.
Unless you’re suggesting bias then I can’t understand your point. I would presume there are numerous posters who have never had a thread locked. If you have some evidence about bias in terms of Moderator threads, then let’s hear it and cease with inferences please. Your point about deleting locked threads only has limited merit (and has been done in the past) where the thread was purely outside the scope of the WI guidelines and rules, and served no useful purpose. However several locked threads also exist where though there were locked they do contain some useful information. In hindsight I/We could remove all the crap within a locked thread that has gone off-course, but I like you have limited time, resources and energy to undertake such a proposition.
Is it just a coincidence that the last four threads that were locked were mine (2) and von Schadenwald's (2)
Yes, there is no other agenda.

If you go back over the last 10 pages, then you’ve had no threads locked and von.S has had 2. Even his combined total of 3 out of 300 threads on those 10 pages is less than some others. Again if you feel victimized then please contact myself or Marcus about it. What I will say is that those that transpire the rules/guidelines on a regular basis, do attract more Moderator attention, which you would expect.

Now I don't expect this reply to sate your concerns, but there is no conspiracy or agenda other than keeping the WI going. All forum sections go through vibrant times and slow times. Some members will like the evironment we operate in and others dont. You cannot please everyone, but we all do our best

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Andy H

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Re: An example of a "Model WI" is needed

Post by Andy H » 21 Jul 2010 18:41

Von Schadewald wrote:I too am a bit miffed that some of my threads have been locked. The Moderator runs a tight shop, but as of late has become a tad too tight, and also inconsistent in application of "the rules", IMO. I'll continue to contribute to other people's WI threads, but I won't be initiating any more here, as to see an original WI idea, the flower of one's thought process and imagination, so swiftly locked, in disuasion of the pursuit of novel human knowledge, and being that as we get older we cannot always maintain the high 'WI literary' standards that are nominally required, is too bitter a pill to swallow. I see that decorum and focus is maintained on other laxer military WI/AH forums, with only occasional recourse to locking.
Hi von.S

The WI section has over the past year or so, has taken up more time than it warrants, as various members raised issues concerning the slack nature of the WI concepts and the way the section was returning to its old ways-when it was nearly closed. Now if you see my actions as being overly harsh then you should contact me, and I think I have replied to you on every occassion when you have. I have spent numerous hours giving advice on how you could develop your WI's, which I have noted are good in there idea but weak in the detail/reality.

I respect your decision to not author anymore threads but welcome your input into others. I won't comment on other WI forums rules etc, but each to there own I have found. What I will say is that I have found this forums WI are duly noted on several other WI forums/sections as a good source for a more balanced and reasoned debate, than what maybe occuring on others.Take from that what you will

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Andy H

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Re: An example of a "Model WI" is needed

Post by Roddoss72 » 22 Jul 2010 01:49

Batlsar

I gave a very good example, of backgroung to my "Avro Manchester" thread, i suspect you did not actually read it.

So in essence to what you are implying is that i am NEVER EVER allowed to add the dive bombing role of the Avro Manchester and Handley Page Halifax, as pertaining the same specification of the He-177?. It either yes or no.

My assertion was implied that the Air Ministry was as incompetent as the RLM.

My so called thread "USN clashes with the RN" in WW1 was not my choosing, i was never consulted over the split, it was done deliberately because i fear the powers to be wanted an excuse to kill off the thread, or more importantly that line of What If, the above thread was split from the "Franz von Papen Hits Pay Dirt" thread, all the background information was there to read, and i would have given you at least an ounce of nouce to know that.

Andy H

I once wrote to you with a desire to become a moderator, i consider that i would make a good moderator, but it seems that i have upset you on this for some reason, it is like how dare me for even asking, and i think it is too much of a coincidence that after this two theads of mine have been locked.

Give me an example that i was lazy in the two What If threads, i had asked valid scenarios, they were damned good scenarios. If certain members had asked that my last two threads be locked then name them.

My last scenarios weren't Alien Space Bats and you know it, and i continued imputting into those threads and just walked away from the to leave a messy bit of debris for you to clean up and to make sense of.

There is one way to avoid all this so called aingst, simply shut down the entire "What If" section, and with that revoke all post counts that have been accumulated there.

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Re: An example of a "Model WI" is needed

Post by Baltasar » 22 Jul 2010 05:47

Roddoss, your example was "the Air Ministry decides so". Your example did not take into account any of the problems above, nor did you explain why the British would suddenly decide something like that. The point of a What if is also to explain why something evolved differently than historically.

I am aware that the USN clashes with the RN thread was a spin off. However, you referred to two of your threads closed on the first page of the forum section and this was the only other one. Be it as it may, the idea of the USN clashing with the UK during WWI is at least remote militarily and a complete no-go politically.

In both cases "Stick to the topic, it is so because I say so" is neither a valid nor a convincing argument.

And last but not least. Every time someone writes something which questions your scenarios, you take it as a personal attack. Just read through your last post here and try to imagine how someone else would understand what you wrote. It'll be helpful, most of all for yourself, if you could avoid that.

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Re: An example of a "Model WI" is needed

Post by Andy H » 22 Jul 2010 11:04

I once wrote to you with a desire to become a moderator, i consider that i would make a good moderator, but it seems that i have upset you on this for some reason, it is like how dare me for even asking, and i think it is too much of a coincidence that after this two theads of mine have been locked.
Hi Rodderick

You did indeed ask me about how one becomes a Moderator and I replied with all the information requested. You are then making a connection that doesn't exist between this enquiry and two threads being locked. I'm unsure why you asking to become a Moderator should upset me. If that was the case I wouldn't have replied as I did when you originally asked me.
Give me an example that i was lazy in the two What If threads, i had asked valid scenarios, they were damned good scenarios. If certain members had asked that my last two threads be locked then name them.
You have read my response as if it was personnel to you, which it wasn't. You were making some rather broad statements about locking threads and locked threads in general. My response was answer to those remarks. Obviously I'm not going to name members who raise matters via PM, as that is private.
My last scenarios weren't Alien Space Bats and you know it, and i continued imputting into those threads and just walked away from the to leave a messy bit of debris for you to clean up and to make sense of.
Again your cross reading my responses which were more generalistic in tone than you willing to warrant. Neither of your threads would be classed as ASB.
There is one way to avoid all this so called aingst, simply shut down the entire "What If" section, and with that revoke all post counts that have been accumulated there.
Well that achieves nothing positive, it's an easy answer to a problem your having with this section. Why not just stay out of the section if it causes you so much issue! There are areas myself that I dont often frequent because it makes my blood boil at times. Does anyone really care about post counts to that extent that they advocate there reduction!

Regards

Andy H

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