Hamburg vs. Dresden

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CJK1990
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Hamburg vs. Dresden

#1

Post by CJK1990 » 31 Aug 2010, 17:10

I notice that there has been a lot of moral controversy over the 1945 bombing of dresden, but there has been much less controversy or debate over the 1943 bombing of hamburg which by many estimates was actually worse. Why is that?

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Re: Hamburg vs. Dresden

#2

Post by binder001 » 31 Aug 2010, 21:24

The Hamburg raid occurred during the middle of the war. Germany had passed its ascendency, but was still a very dangerous foe. Dresden occurred at the tail end of the war. Hamburg was a port, shipbuilding center, etc. Dresden is usually depicted as having "no military industry". Dresden has been associated in many minds with such motives as "Churchills revenge for Coventry", or "the Allies demonstrating their airpower to the Soviets" or "kicking the fallen opponent while he is down", etc. I'm sure the motives mattered little to the people in the firestorms.


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Re: Hamburg vs. Dresden

#3

Post by redcoat » 31 Aug 2010, 22:44

Another factor is that until Dresden the Nazi authorities always played down the casualties suffered, but with Dresden they changed this policy and increased the casualties suffered by a factor of 10 , 250,000 instead of 25,000 for propaganda purposes in order to frighten the German public into continuing supporting the war because, according to the Nazi argument, they couldn't expect mercy from any of the Allies.

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Re: Hamburg vs. Dresden

#4

Post by phylo_roadking » 31 Aug 2010, 23:17

Dresden is usually depicted as having "no military industry".
I'm tempted to ask - by who, nowadays? :wink: This has been dealt with in depth on AHF in several threads, and has ben illustrated to be completely wrong.
increased the casualties suffered by a factor of 10 , 250,000 instead of 25,000 for propaganda purposes
It's worth noting that recently the German Historical Commission brought this down to 15-18,000.
Dresden occurred at the tail end of the war
It occured two and a hlaf months before the end of the war - and before some very large Allied raids on OTHER German cities...raids that were as costly in terms of lives lost.
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Re: Hamburg vs. Dresden

#5

Post by Guaporense » 31 Aug 2010, 23:57

phylo_roadking wrote:
Dresden occurred at the tail end of the war
It occured two and a hlaf months before the end of the war - and before some very large Allied raids on OTHER German cities...raids that were as costly in terms of lives lost.
Are you sure about that? Because other major German cities were already bombed, and as result additional bombing reduced the number of killed due to diminishing returns.
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

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Re: Hamburg vs. Dresden

#6

Post by bf109 emil » 01 Sep 2010, 00:22

Guaporense wrote:
phylo_roadking wrote:
Dresden occurred at the tail end of the war
It occured two and a hlaf months before the end of the war - and before some very large Allied raids on OTHER German cities...raids that were as costly in terms of lives lost.
Are you sure about that? Because other major German cities were already bombed, and as result additional bombing reduced the number of killed due to diminishing returns.
Here is a list of around 600 RAF bombers lost between Feb.16 to May 8 1945 and the locales in which they where lost in order to get a better picture of which cities where yet to still be bombed.http://www.lostbombers.co.uk/results.ph ... mit=Search

Had Hitlers order for Nero Decree issued March 19 1945 been carried out. The deaths involved from Dresden or Hamburg would have been paltry upon civilians of the German cities in pale comparison to Germany's own doing...

All military transport and communication facilities, industrial establishments and supply depots, as well as anything else of value within Reich territory, which could in any way be used by the enemy immediately or within the foreseeable future for the prosecution of the war, will be destroyed. Hugh R. Trevor Roper (ed) Blitzkrieg to Defeat: Hitler's War Directives 1939-1945 (NY: Holt Rinehart and Winston, 1971) pp. 206-207

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Re: Hamburg vs. Dresden

#7

Post by phylo_roadking » 01 Sep 2010, 00:33

It occured two and a hlaf months before the end of the war - and before some very large Allied raids on OTHER German cities...raids that were as costly in terms of lives lost.
Are you sure about that?
O lord, here were go again...

Pforzheim on the 24th of February - Bomber Command killed 17,000 Germans, putting it RIGHT in the HC's 15-18,000 Dresden bracket.

Potsdam on April 14th killed "only" 7,000 people BUT for only half the Dresden level of effort/number of aircraft.
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Re: Hamburg vs. Dresden

#8

Post by bf109 emil » 01 Sep 2010, 01:29

Hard to compare the 2 raids as Hamburg was a solely RAF raid...

Dresden was a combined effort between the RAF and USAAF.
Dresden has been associated in many minds with such motives as "Churchills revenge for Coventry", or "the Allies demonstrating their airpower to the Soviets" or "kicking the fallen opponent while he is down", etc. I'm sure the motives mattered little to the people in the firestorms.
Would the unfounded debate over retaliation for Coventry even become spoken, had the attack on Dresden went ahead as planned, with the first strike to be flown by the USAAF had not been postponed due to poor weather...Unless someone could show the likes and wishes of Churchill, could be simply made as to the course and direction chosen and flown by by the USAAF and RAF this remains a farce...

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Re: Hamburg vs. Dresden

#9

Post by phylo_roadking » 01 Sep 2010, 01:46

Hard to compare the 2 raids as Hamburg was a solely RAF raid...

Dresden was a combined effort between the RAF and USAAF
Jim - doesn't matter :wink: Hamburg was a series of raids - Operation GOMORRAH was a long series of raids....and so was Dresden; you can compare them by tonnage of ordnance delivered, number of aircraft involved, number of sorties flown as part of each operation, number of targets of military or industrial significance destroyed or damaged....even body count if necessary.

The markings on any of the Allied aircraft over each city doesn't actually matter to all those measures :wink:
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Re: Hamburg vs. Dresden

#10

Post by binder001 » 01 Sep 2010, 17:31

Phylo, When I posted about the Dresden raids I was answering the question about the "moral outrage". You are right that the story has a lot more accurate information available, but in the "general" view of events, the legends live on. I was addressing the original question, not trying to set the record straight. The common moral view of Dresden is based on 65 years of retelling the same version of the events without any correction of the mistaken information.

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Re: Hamburg vs. Dresden

#11

Post by Guaporense » 29 Oct 2010, 23:39

phylo_roadking wrote:
It occured two and a hlaf months before the end of the war - and before some very large Allied raids on OTHER German cities...raids that were as costly in terms of lives lost.
Are you sure about that?
O lord, here were go again...

Pforzheim on the 24th of February - Bomber Command killed 17,000 Germans, putting it RIGHT in the HC's 15-18,000 Dresden bracket.

Potsdam on April 14th killed "only" 7,000 people BUT for only half the Dresden level of effort/number of aircraft.
These 17,000 and 7,000 numbers are estimates made by the bomber command? Because you cannot compare these estimates with the 15-18 thousand number for Dresden.
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

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Re: Hamburg vs. Dresden

#12

Post by Hanny » 30 Oct 2010, 01:51

http://www.bombenkrieg.historicum.net/t ... zheim.html

German city archives numbers, BC estimates are in Max Hastings Bomber Command amongst others, this example is used because it was the highest % of loss of life inflicted, 20% of pre war population which is low, but no one knows how many forgien labour was there etc, more common is the articles 31%, using German numbers.
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Re: Hamburg vs. Dresden

#13

Post by phylo_roadking » 30 Oct 2010, 02:23

These 17,000 and 7,000 numbers are estimates made by the bomber command?
At Pforzheim the official German count was 17,600. Which means its a direct comparison with Dresden's new official total of 18,000.
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Re: Hamburg vs. Dresden

#14

Post by Hanny » 30 Oct 2010, 02:55

http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/Po ... resden.htm

Excellent resource from USAF War College.The Immediate Consequences of the Dresden Bombings on the Physical Structure and Populace of the City:

25. The RAF Bomber Command’s are raid on Dresden, conducted on the night of 13/14 February 1945, resulted in fires that did great damage to the city proper, particularly in the older and more densely built up areas.46 Early official Allied post-strike reports estimated that 85 per cent of the fully built-up city area was destroyed, that the old part of the city, which comprised the greater portion of the built-up areas was largely wiped out, that the majority of buildings in the inner suburbs was gutted, and that in the outer suburbs, few buildings were effected by the area bombing attack. Virtually all major public buildings appeared heavily gutted or severely damaged. Public utilities, and facilities such as slaughter houses, warehouses, and distribution centers, were severely affected.47 A very large number of the city’s industrial facilities were destroyed or severely damaged,48 with perhaps a four-fifth’s reduction in the productive capacity of the arms plants.49 Later British assessments, which were more conservative, concluded that 23 per cent of the city’s industrial buildings were seriously damaged and that 56 per cent of the non-industrial buildings (exclusive of dwellings) had been heavily damaged. Of the total number of dwelling units in the city proper, 78,000 were regarded as demolished, 27,70 temporarily uninhabitable but ultimately repairable, and 64,500 readily repairable from minor damage. This later assessment indicated that 80 per cent of the city’s housing units had undergone some degree of damage and that 50 per cent of the dwellings had been demolished or seriously damaged.50

26. The Eighth Air Force raids against the city’s railway facilities on 14 and 15 February resulted in severe and extensive damage that entirely paralyzed communications. The city’s passenger terminals and major freight stations, warehouses, and storage sheds were, when not totally destroyed, so severely damaged that they were unusable. Roundhouses, railway repair and work shops, coal stations, and other operating facilities, were destroyed, gutted, or severely damaged. The railway bridges over the Elbe river--vital to incoming and outgoing traffic--were rendered unusable and remained closed to traffic for many weeks after the raids.51

27. Casualties among the Dresden populace were inevitably very heavy in consequence of the fires that swept over the city following the RAF area raid on the night of 13/14 February. In addition to its normal population, the city had experienced a heavy influx of refugees from the east and of evacuees from bombings in other areas, particularly from Berlin.52 The exact number of casualties from the Dresden bombings can never be firmly established.53 Contemporary British estimates were that from 8,200 to 16,400 persons were killed and that similar numbers of persons may have been seriously injured.54 Most of the latest German post-war estimates are that about 25,000 persons were killed and about 30,000 were wounded, virtually all of these being casualties from the RAF incendiary attack of 13/14 February.55 Although the latest available post-war accounts play up the “terroristic” aspects of the Dresden bombings, it is significant that they accept much lower casualty figures than those circulated by the Germans immediately after the raids and, from time to time, in the years immediately following the war.56 The most distorted account of the Dresden bombings--one that may have become the basis of Communist propaganda against the Allies, particularly against the Americans, in recent years--was prepared by two former German general officers for the Historical Division, European Command (U.S.A.) in 1948.57 In this account, the number of dead from the Dresden bombings was declared to be 250,000. That this figure may be the probable number of dead, multiplied by ten for the sake of exaggeration, becomes apparent by comparing the weight of the Dresden bombings of 14-15 February 1945 with the total tonnages expanded by the Allies against the six other largest German cities (see Chart A) and by comparing the various estimates of the Dresden casualties with the best estimate of the total casualties suffered by the Germans from all Allied bombings during World War II.

28. Shown in the following chart are the total tonnages of bombs that were expanded by the Allies against the six cities in Germany that were larger in population than Dresden:

City Population in 1939 Total Bomb Tonnages
Berlin 4,339,000 67,607.6
Hamburg 1,129,000 38,687.6
München (Munich) 841,000 27,110.9
Köln (Cologne) 772,000 44,923.2
Leipzig 707,000 11,616.4
Essen 667,000 37,938.0
Dresden 642,000 7,100.5

The United States Strategic Bombing Survey estimated that 305,000 persons were killed and 780,000 were wounded as the consequence of all Allied bombings against Germany in World War II,58 from a total Allied bomb expenditure of 3,697,473.59 It may therefore be presumed that the estimates of 25,000 dead and 30,000 wounded, as presented in most of the latest available German estimates of the Dresden bombings, are reasonable and acceptable.

29. Despite the lack of accurate statistics on the number of killed and wounded in the Dresden raid, as well as in other Allied bombings of German cities, it would appear from such estimates as are available that the casualties suffered in the Dresden bombings were not disproportionate to those suffered in area attacks on other German cities.

The reports of the United States Bombing Survey give specific estimates of the dead for only four of the German cities which were subject to fire raids during area attacks.60 Assuming that there may probably have been about 1,000,000 people in Dresden on the night the 13/14 February RAF attack,61 these are the comparative death rates in Dresden and the four cities for which the United States Strategic Bombing Survey has given estimates of moralities from incendiary area attacks:62

City Population Killed Percentage rate
Darmstadt 109,000 8,100 .075
Kassel 220,000 8,659 .039
Dresden 1,000,000 25,000 .025
Hamburg 1,738,000 41,800 .024
Wuppertal 400,000 5,219 .013
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Re: Hamburg vs. Dresden

#15

Post by Guaporense » 05 Nov 2010, 00:30

phylo_roadking wrote:
These 17,000 and 7,000 numbers are estimates made by the bomber command?
At Pforzheim the official German count was 17,600. Which means its a direct comparison with Dresden's new official total of 18,000.
Ok.
"In tactics, as in strategy, superiority in numbers is the most common element of victory." - Carl von Clausewitz

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