LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

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Harro
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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by Harro » 09 Dec 2010 21:12

SS-Obersturmführer Karl Hans von Kurz (SS-Nr. 297 418) was wounded on 13.04.1941 (Abteilungsarzt AA LAH)

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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by Dutto1 » 09 Dec 2010 23:14

bigger_chief wrote:The Leibstandarte volume I Rudolf Lehmann

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Leibstandarte-Rud ... 0486102318

Seems very pricey.
I thought so aswell,but ive just looked on Amazon.co.uk and there is a copy of Vol 1 up for an incredible 519.99 GBP ! The first 3 Vols are now becoming quite hard to obtain so it pushes prices up .

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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by FMG » 10 Dec 2010 01:53

Kinzer, Guenter
DOB: 28.6.1920
SS-Nr.: 365 564
SS-Strm. (20.4.1940 m.W.v. 1.4.1940)

Frank

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Harro
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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by Harro » 10 Dec 2010 19:25

Thanks Frank, it seems Kinzer is the correct spelling :)

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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by FMG » 11 Dec 2010 18:28

xristar:

The following is from a report covering the period 8. April 1941 to the surrender of the Greek Army.

Leibstandarte-SS Adolf Hitler Div.St.Qu., den 24.April 1941

G e f e c h t s b e r i c h t

der L.SS A.H. für die Zeit vom 6.4.41 - 24.4.41

...

Gesamtverluste:

Gefallen: 2 Führer

7 Unterführer

63 Mannschaften

Verwundet: 9 Führer

38 Unterführer

199 Mannschaften

Vermisst: 3 Mannschaften


gez. Dietrich
SS-Obergruppenführer und Kommandeur


I hope this is of some help.

Frank

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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by xristar » 13 Dec 2010 11:14

FMG wrote:xristar:

The following is from a report covering the period 8. April 1941 to the surrender of the Greek Army.

Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler Div.St.Qu., den 24.April 1941

G e f e c h t s b e r i c h t

der L.SS A.H. fuer die Zeit vom 6.4.41 - 24.4.41

...

Gesamtverluste:

Gefallen: 2 Fuehrer

7 Unterfuehrer

63 Mannschaften

Verwundet: 9 Fuehrer

38 Unterfuehrer

199 Mannschaften

Vermisst: 3 Mannschaften


gez. Dietrich
SS-Obergruppenfuehrer und Kommandeur


I hope this is of some help.

Frank
That's good, though not something different from what has been already posted. What I find interesting is that you give 72 killed, 246 wounded and 3 missing, while I have found elsewere (Spearhead: LEIBSTANDARTE, Hitelr's Elite Bodyguard, by Michael Sharpe and Brian L. Davis) that LSSAH had 93 killed, 225 wounded and 3 missing! Interestingly, total is the same.

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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by Harro » 13 Dec 2010 14:09

xristar wrote:
FMG wrote:xristar:

The following is from a report covering the period 8. April 1941 to the surrender of the Greek Army.

Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler Div.St.Qu., den 24.April 1941

G e f e c h t s b e r i c h t

der L.SS A.H. fuer die Zeit vom 6.4.41 - 24.4.41
That's good, though not something different from what has been already posted. What I find interesting is that you give 72 killed, 246 wounded and 3 missing, while I have found elsewere (Spearhead: LEIBSTANDARTE, Hitelr's Elite Bodyguard, by Michael Sharpe and Brian L. Davis) that LSSAH had 93 killed, 225 wounded and 3 missing! Interestingly, total is the same.
Obviously some of the wounded died in hospital after 24.04.1941.

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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by xristar » 13 Dec 2010 14:50

Harro wrote:
xristar wrote:
FMG wrote:xristar:

The following is from a report covering the period 8. April 1941 to the surrender of the Greek Army.

Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler Div.St.Qu., den 24.April 1941

G e f e c h t s b e r i c h t

der L.SS A.H. fuer die Zeit vom 6.4.41 - 24.4.41
That's good, though not something different from what has been already posted. What I find interesting is that you give 72 killed, 246 wounded and 3 missing, while I have found elsewere (Spearhead: LEIBSTANDARTE, Hitelr's Elite Bodyguard, by Michael Sharpe and Brian L. Davis) that LSSAH had 93 killed, 225 wounded and 3 missing! Interestingly, total is the same.
Obviously some of the wounded died in hospital after 24.04.1941.
Yeah, I thought that too, but aren't those supposed to be counted separately? In Greek casualty reports men killed and men dead of wounds in hospitals are given separately.

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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by xristar » 17 Dec 2010 10:47

While Googling about the German invasion in Greece, I found a reference I found of great interest, as it supports, at least partly, my thoughts about the battle of 15 April (namely that the German casualties can not be limited only to the SS recce group).

There's apparently a book called "The SS-Panzer-Artillery Regiment 1 Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler (LAH) in WW II", and its short review found at http://stevenbaffa.tripod.com/bluemaxmi ... /id15.html says:
This book is the first volume about Artillery Regiment 1 of the 1st Waffen-SS Division Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler (LAH). The artillery batteries of the LAH during the whole of World War II faced some of the hardest combat, and probably no other artillery unit was used as often at critical spots on all fronts. While it had only three batteries of light field howitzers during the French campaign, when the full artillery regiment was set up in August 1940, it later received heavier guns and 88mm flak. In April 1941, at Lake Kastoria in Macedonia during a tremendous artillery battle, the full regiment fired as a unit for the first time. During the battles on the Russian Front the regiment's artillery equipment was constantly upgraded. One of the artillery batteries was equipped from 1943 with Wespe and Hummel self-propelled guns and later with Nebelwerfer rocket launchers that gave the regiment its tremendous firepower. Especially during the difficult defensive battles in the winter of 1943-1944 in the Ukraine, every artillery piece - whether a heavy field howitzer, or 15cm rocket launcher - was often used at such close range that it was fired with barrels in a horizontal position. The battery was later attached to the reconnaissance unit in the vanguard of the LAH and experienced the hardest battles while using "Panzermeyer tactics" that required rapid marches and lightning fast deployment into firing positions. Nearly 300 photos, most never before published, document the bitter battles of the LAH artillery regiment. Size: 8.5"x11", over 290 b/w photos, 208 pages. Price - $59.95

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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by Harro » 17 Dec 2010 17:57

It has been well esteblished by previous posters that it wasn't just the AA LAH.
Gesamtverluste:

Gefallen: 2 Fuehrer

7 Unterfuehrer

63 Mannschaften

Verwundet: 9 Fuehrer

38 Unterfuehrer

199 Mannschaften

Vermisst: 3 Mannschaften

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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by xristar » 17 Dec 2010 18:43

Harro wrote:It has been well esteblished by previous posters that it wasn't just the AA LAH.
I'm speaking of the battle south of Kastoria lake on 15 April, where the only given losses of the LSSAH are the 4 killed and 6 wounded of the AA, compared to at least a couple hundred casualties for the Greeks. No losses are attributed to the infantry and the artillery units of LSSAH even though they clearly participated in the battle.

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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by j keenan » 19 Dec 2010 10:24

Artillery LAH losses 15.4.41
3 k.i.a. 7 w.i.a.
source Fischer

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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by Piotr Kapuscinski » 10 Jan 2011 23:34

The thread is about LSSAH but since also overall German casualty figures for the Balkan Campaign were being quoted here, I guess that providing casualty figures of 2. Panzer-Division will not be a total Off-Topic.

During military operations of the Balkanfeldzug 2. Panzer-Division lost:

6 officers, 21 NCOs and 51 men killed
21 officers, 78 NCOs and 260 men wounded

Casualties in missing aren't mentioned (one possible explanation is that there were no any missing).

After the end of operations, while returning to Germany, transport ships "Marburg" and "Kybfels" carrying the tracked elements of 2. Pz.Div. were sunk by a recently laid British mine barrage. This caused casualties:

2 officers, 5 NCOs and 33 men dead
3 officers, 33 NCOs and 108 men missing

These ships were sunk during the night from 20th to 21st of May.

I just wonder if these casualties were also included in overall German casualty figures for Balkanfeldzug?

Equipment losses on "Marburg" and "Kybfels" were heavy - many tanks of the division got sunk.
The German Whermacht lost
57 officers,1042 nco and men killed,
181 officers,3571 nco and men wounded
13 oficers,372 nco and men missing.
Luftwaffe
10 officers,42 nco killed
36 officers and 104 nco missing
source vol 1 lssah
Nice work Ste and Harrow Thanks
Best Jamie
These were the figures used by Hitler when he spoke at the Reichstag in Berlin.
Best Jamie
Yes - and they include both Greece and Yugoslavia, not just Greece. Here is what exactly Hitler said:
Adolf Hitler wrote: The losses of the German Army and the German Air Force, as well as of the armed SS troops in this campaign, were the smallest we have had so far. In the battle with Yugoslavia and Greece, or with the British in Greece, the German Army and the armed SS troops lost 57 officers and 1,042 non-commissioned officers and men killed, 181 officers and 3,571 NCO's and men wounded; and 13 officers and 372 NCO's and men missing. The Air Force: 10 officers and 42 NCO's and men dead; and 36 officers and 104 NCO's and men missing.
Regarding this question:
Are SS casualties included in Wehrmacht casualties?
According to Hitler - yes.
I understand it's improbable that there is a reliable record of German casualties in the Balkan campaign.
Here more information about German losses in the Balkanfeldzug:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1352486

And here another discussion about German losses there (in Polish):

http://www.dws.org.pl/viewtopic.php?f=1 ... 2&start=50

And gen. Muller-Hillebrand provided losses in the Balkanfeldzug as: 1206 KIA, 534 MIA, 3915 WIA.

Muller-Hillebrand's figures refer only to casualties of Heer - without SS, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine.

According to the report written on 15.07.1942 by Dr. Korherr (Inspector Head for Statistics of SS) fatal casualties (dead and missing) of SS formations and members of SS during the Balkan Campaign (+ Crete) were:

Yugoslavia - 32 (Waffen SS), 15 (Allgemeine SS)
Greece - 84 (Waffen SS), 25 (Allgemeine SS)
Crete - zero (Waffen SS), 90 (Allgemeine SS)

I think the most reliable (the most complete - as it comes from the report written in 1945 so they had a lot of time to count) is this data on German casualties in the Balkanfeldzug (without Luftwaffe casualties):
Domen121 wrote:4. German report written on 06.02.1945 (Organizationsabteilung d. Gen.Stb. d. OKH. 6 Feb 45) - includes only casualties of Feldheer and probably includes Waffen-SS casualties as well:

1,593 KIA
644 MIA
4,845 WIA
So in total 2,237 killed (the campaign was victorious - missing were de facto killed) and 4,845 wounded.

And according to English wikipedia (they quote Clodfelter, Michael. "Warfare and Armed Conflicts- A Statistical Reference to Casualty and Other Figures, 1500-2000" as their source) German casualties in Greece were 1,423 killed and 3,411 wounded (which would leave 814 killed and 1,434 wounded for combats in Yugoslavia).

First official figures for losses in Yugoslavia were much smaller (151 KIA, 15 MIA, 392 WIA).

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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by Harro » 11 Jan 2011 09:44

This information is very interesting and I thank you for sharing it with us. However, a question springs to mind:
Domen121 wrote:According to the report written on 15.07.1942 by Dr. Korherr (Inspector Head for Statistics of SS) fatal casualties (dead and missing) of SS formations and members of SS during the Balkan Campaign (+ Crete) were:

Yugoslavia - 32 (Waffen SS), 15 (Allgemeine SS)
Greece - 84 (Waffen SS), 25 (Allgemeine SS)
Crete - zero (Waffen SS), 90 (Allgemeine SS)
Well, if we take Rudolf Schröder: he was an SS-Hauptsturmführer in the Waffen-SS and an SS-Obersturmführer in the Allgemeine SS. What do such cases do with the statistics? Are Allgemeine SS members only listed when they're not in the Waffen-SS?

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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by xristar » 12 Jan 2011 11:37

Domen121 wrote: During military operations of the Balkanfeldzug 2. Panzer-Division lost:

6 officers, 21 NCOs and 51 men killed
21 officers, 78 NCOs and 260 men wounded

Casualties in missing aren't mentioned (one possible explanation is that there were no any missing).
Thanks, very interesting, and surprising: I believed them to be quite lower.
Domen121 wrote: According to the report written on 15.07.1942 by Dr. Korherr (Inspector Head for Statistics of SS) fatal casualties (dead and missing) of SS formations and members of SS during the Balkan Campaign (+ Crete) were:

Yugoslavia - 32 (Waffen SS), 15 (Allgemeine SS)
Greece - 84 (Waffen SS), 25 (Allgemeine SS)
Crete - zero (Waffen SS), 90 (Allgemeine SS)
well, that's weird. I don't understand how SS works. 90 SS dead in Crete? In what units? 109 dead in mainland Greece? The LSSAH had 75-96 dead as mentioned before, including some in Yugoslavia. :?
Domen121 wrote: I think the most reliable (the most complete - as it comes from the report written in 1945 so they had a lot of time to count) is this data on German casualties in the Balkanfeldzug (without Luftwaffe casualties):
Domen121 wrote:4. German report written on 06.02.1945 (Organizationsabteilung d. Gen.Stb. d. OKH. 6 Feb 45) - includes only casualties of Feldheer and probably includes Waffen-SS casualties as well:

1,593 KIA
644 MIA
4,845 WIA
So in total 2,237 killed (the campaign was victorious - missing were de facto killed) and 4,845 wounded.
The figure is quite higher than the other claims. I suspect it may include the casualties suffered by the 5th Gebirgsjager Div(+ a reg. from 6th Geb.Div.). in Crete (395 KIA, 257 MIA, 504 WIA), as well the casualties of 2nd Pz.Div. during the sinking of Kybfels and Marburg? Added to this:
Domen121 wrote: And according to English wikipedia (they quote Clodfelter, Michael. "Warfare and Armed Conflicts- A Statistical Reference to Casualty and Other Figures, 1500-2000" as their source) German casualties in Greece were 1,423 killed and 3,411 wounded (which would leave 814 killed and 1,434 wounded for combats in Yugoslavia).

First official figures for losses in Yugoslavia were much smaller (151 KIA, 15 MIA, 392 WIA).
a)Subtracting numbers from different sources is not very wise.
b)The difference of casualties in Yugoslavia is so high that make me believe that this assumption is incorrect. My vote goes to Crete & outside of combat casualties.


Can we possibly find the casualties for each formation during the Balkan campaign, particularly 5th Pz.Div. and 9th Pz.Div.? If we do, calculating plausible total German casualties for Greece will be easy. :milwink:

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