LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

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xristar
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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by xristar » 06 Oct 2015 18:13

MarkN wrote: There is a 16 page report dated 30 April 1941 of LSSAH operations 6-29 April 1941, Anlagen 97a zum KTB 2, XXXX.AK. It records for...

... 10-13 April ...
Gefallen: 1 Fuhrer (Witt), 4 Unterofficier & 32 Mannshaften
Verwundert: 3 Fuhrer, 14 Unterofficier & 81 Mannshaften
Vermisst: 2 Mannshaften
Gefangene: 480 Englander (sic) & 120 Griechen

... 14 April ...
Gefallen: 1 Fuhrer (Schroeder) & 6 Mannshaften
Verwundert: 1 Fuhrer, 3 Unterofficier & 14 Mannshaften
Gefangene: 1 Rgt.Kdr., 2 Btl Kde., 16 Officiere und uber 600 Mannshaften

... 15 April ...
Gefallen: 4 Mannshaften
Verwundert: 6 Mannshaften
Gefangene: uber 12,000
Mark, I was aware of the numbers and I have obtained, via some very generous gentlemen on this site, a number of German archives. Still, the figures are incomplete, as evidenced by the fact that they do not agree with J Keenan's list. In case you doubt the accuracy of J Keenan's list here a bit:
I have explained earlier in this thread that from 12 to 15 April a number of engagements were fought between Greeks and Germans. The Greek forces were defeated in all of them. The last of them - or at least the last of any significance- was the battle fought on 15 April south of lake Kastoria, were a forward detachment formed around battalion I/23 (from the 13th division retreating from Albania), supported by a fair amount of artillery (IIRC some 36 tubes) attempted to block the westward advance of the LSSAH. During that engagement LSSAH commited initially its Aufklarungsabteilung, and later its artillery regiment and its IIIrd battalion to the left of the Aufklarungabteilung. Late in the battle the II/LSSAH also joined, although I'm not sure it really saw action. Greek resistance was broken after a day's worth of battle. The Geeek I/23 reported its losses as 160 killed and wounded, and this figure does not include the other units involved. In Greek sources the battle is described as a hefty one and at the very least the Greek artillery lobbed a fair amount of shells on the Germans, both their artillery and their infantry. At least one "tank" was claimed destroyed (probably some armoured reconnaisance vehicle of the AA).

If you compare the list you give (4 killed and 6 wounded) for that day with J Keenan's you see:

three killed and one dead of wounds from the Aufklarungsabteilung (sidenote: there's always the case that a DOW could have been wounded on another day):
j keenan wrote: Kinser, Günther, d.o.b. 28.6.20-15.4.41, 3/AA1, SS-Strm.
Zimmermann, Horst, d.o.b. 10.12.21-15.4.41, 3/AA1, S-Strm.
Lölgen, Johannes, d.o.b. 9.8.20-15.4.41, 4/AA1, SS-Uscha.
Berger, Alois, d.o.b. 21.12.21, Died of wounds 15.4.41, 2/AA1, SS-Mann
three killed from III battalion, all from 13th company:
j keenan wrote: Krüger, Erich, d.o.b. 21.6.21-15.4.41, 13/LAH, SS-Strm.
Fiedler, Erhard, d.o.b. 9.11.21-15.4.41, 13/LAH, SS-Strm.
Uelze, Fritz, d.o.b. 1.2.21-15.4.41, 13/LAH, SS-Mann
four killed from the artillery regiment:
j keenan wrote: Peitsch, Paul, d.o.b. 15.9.20-15.4.41, 4/Art.Rgt.1, SS-Strm.
Schenderlein, Günther, d.o.b. 20.10.21-15.4.41, 5/Art.Rgt.1, SS-Mann
Ulc, Werner, d.o.b. 15.7.22-15.4.41, 5/Art.Rgt.1, SS-Mann
Wenhart, Josef, d.o.b. 5.9.15-15.4.41, 2/Art.Rgt.1, SS-Uscha.
Three died of wounds, although possibly not from wounds sustained on that day:
j keenan wrote: Lietz, Arthur, d.o.b. 26.2.21, Died of wounds 15.4.41, 2/LAH, SS-Mann
Silmbroth, Kurt, d.o.b. 1.8.21, Died of wouds 15.4.41, 3/Pi.Btl.1, SS-Mann
Thauer, Helmuth, d.o.b. 26.7.21, Died of wounds 15.4.41, 6/LAH, SS-Strm

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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by MarkN » 07 Oct 2015 14:30

Hello xristar,
xristar wrote:
MarkN wrote: There is a 16 page report dated 30 April 1941 of LSSAH operations 6-29 April 1941, Anlagen 97a zum KTB 2, XXXX.AK. It records for...
Mark, I was aware of the numbers and I have obtained, via some very generous gentlemen on this site, a number of German archives. Still, the figures are incomplete, as evidenced by the fact that they do not agree with J Keenan's list. In case you doubt the accuracy of J Keenan's list here a bit:
Personally, I am not interested in whether the correct figure is 4 or 11 LSSAH killed on 15 April 1941. I merely posted the information so that you and others can see the information from a primary source. A source which has clearly been used by authors post war.

I took your advice and read back in this thread. It seems you are keen to inflate the number of LSSAH casualties as you cannot comprehend how so many Greeks could have been lost for such a small total of Germans. Does it make a difference whether there was 4 or 11 LSSAH dead? Are you still looking for evidence that it was even greater?

For others interested, here is the entry for 15 April 1941 in this LSSAH report:-

Image

Image Image Image Image

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xristar
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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by xristar » 07 Oct 2015 15:27

MarkN wrote: Personally, I am not interested in whether the correct figure is 4 or 11 LSSAH killed on 15 April 1941.
Personally I am.
MarkN wrote: It seems you are keen to inflate the number of LSSAH casualties as you cannot comprehend how so many Greeks could have been lost for such a small total of Germans.
I haven't looked back in the thread (which is somewhat old) but I don't think I have actually made a claim on German casulaties, so I cannot have "inflated" them.
It is easy to understand why a lot of Greeks were killed. In fact, Greek casualties against the Germans weren't all that heavy, compared to the simultaneous action against the Italians.
The difference is in how very low the German losses appear. Not necessarily as comparison to the Greek -there was a pretty dramatic firepower and technology disparity after all-, but in relation to the flow of the battles. When you read a description where three German assaults were repulsed with dense artillery fire, what do you think?
As a general observation, narratives without numbers can be very misleading. That goes all ways. I like numbers.
MarkN wrote:Does it make a difference whether there was 4 or 11 LSSAH dead? Are you still looking for evidence that it was even greater?
It makes a little. No I am not looking for evidence that it was "greater". I am looking for proper complete figures, which I haven't found yet (admittedly, I have not really been looking).


The whole issue is of obviously zero interest to anyone but a (very) few Greeks.

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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by MarkN » 07 Oct 2015 15:58

Hello xristar,
xristar wrote: It makes a little. No I am not looking for evidence that it was "greater".
Really? So you are looking for evidence that it is smaller then, are you?
xristar wrote: I am looking for proper complete figures, which I haven't found yet (admittedly, I have not really been looking).
And how will you know when you have the "proper complete figures"?

You don't trust the figures provided by the commander of LSSAH in his operational report. And you seem to mistrust the figures in the post-war LSSAH historical narrative. If they're not good enough, what source is good enough for you?

Are you going to keep searching until you find the numbers that you think should have ocurred during the "three German assaults ... repulsed with dense artillery fire"?

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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by xristar » 07 Oct 2015 17:12

MarkN wrote:Hello xristar,
xristar wrote: It makes a little. No I am not looking for evidence that it was "greater".
Really? So you are looking for evidence that it is smaller then, are you?
xristar wrote: I am looking for proper complete figures, which I haven't found yet (admittedly, I have not really been looking).
And how will you know when you have the "proper complete figures"?

You don't trust the figures provided by the commander of LSSAH in his operational report. And you seem to mistrust the figures in the post-war LSSAH historical narrative. If they're not good enough, what source is good enough for you?

Are you going to keep searching until you find the numbers that you think should have ocurred during the "three German assaults ... repulsed with dense artillery fire"?
So you read the thread and have nothing to say about your ..."operational report"?
Not the fact that according to Jamie Keenan's list of names you have
13 dead on 10 Arpil
11 dead on 11 April
36 dead on 12 April
3 dead on 13 April
yet according to your source
total casualties between 10 and 13 were
MarkN wrote:... 10-13 April ...
Gefallen: 1 Fuhrer (Witt), 4 Unterofficier & 32 Mannshaften
Verwundert: 3 Fuhrer, 14 Unterofficier & 81 Mannshaften
Vermisst: 2 Mannshaften
Gefangene: 480 Englander (sic) & 120 Griechen


or the fact that you have separate sources giving at least 4 dead for AA on 15 April and 3 dead for the Artillery
Harro wrote:Gefallenen der Aufklärungsabteilung LAH

Dienstag den 15. April 1941

† 2. (Krad.-) Kompanie:
SS-Mann Alois Bergler.

† 3. (Pz. Späh.-) Kompanie:
SS-Mann Günther Kinser
SS-Mann Horst Zimmermann (10. Dezember 1921). Er ruht auf der Kriegsgräberstätte in Dionyssos-Rapendoza (Griechenland). Endgrablage: Gruft 1, Platte 20 - Unter den Unbekannten

† 4. (schw.-) Kompanie:
Unterscharführer Hans Lölgen (9. August 1920). Er ruht auf der Kriegsgräberstätte in Dionyssos-Rapendoza (Griechenland). Endgrablage: Gruft 1, Reihe 9, Platte 6
j keenan wrote:Artillery LAH losses 15.4.41
3 k.i.a. 7 w.i.a.
source Fischer

The Gefechtsbericht der LSSAH fur die Zeit von 6.4.41 - 24.4.41 that I have, which I understand is the same as the report you have, is sloppy, incomplete and in some places ficticious (the events leading to the Greek surrender are propaganda).

Btw, I have been looking for a complete archive for the LSSAH during the Balkan camapign but apparently it is half burned and incomplete.
From the rolls I have got I can assure you there are plenty of half truths and omissions of ugly events. German army fanboys like you may not like that, but it is true.

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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by MarkN » 08 Oct 2015 16:39

Thank you xristar.

However, there was no need to repeat yourself as I understood you perfectly well first time.

What I'm interested in is what sources of information you are willing to accept given that you mistrust so fervently official reports by formation commanders and (semi)official unit histories. Moreover, what sort of scale of LSSAH casualties are you ready to believe?

The point is simple. I don't want to waste my time looking through the documents and files that I have for evidence if you will automatically disregard it as not fitting the 'source profile' and scale that you seek. It's unfair of you to ask for help from other posters if you are predisposed to reject anything not suiting your narrative.

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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by xristar » 10 Oct 2015 16:20

MarkN wrote:Thank you xristar.

However, there was no need to repeat yourself as I understood you perfectly well first time.

What I'm interested in is what sources of information you are willing to accept given that you mistrust so fervently official reports by formation commanders and (semi)official unit histories. Moreover, what sort of scale of LSSAH casualties are you ready to believe?

The point is simple. I don't want to waste my time looking through the documents and files that I have for evidence if you will automatically disregard it as not fitting the 'source profile' and scale that you seek. It's unfair of you to ask for help from other posters if you are predisposed to reject anything not suiting your narrative.
Mark, I was slow in responding because I didn't notice your response (the new forum format does not help).

As far as your question "what sort of scale of LSSAH casualties are you ready to believe", the answer is, I believe J Keenan's list of names.
For example, German losses for 15 April were 10 or 11 killed in action: 4 from the recce battalion attacking on the right, 3 from the 3rd battalion attacking on the left and 3 or 4 from the artillery. Wounded -who knows. The report you have -which I presume is the same I have as well- was apparently written sloppily and inattentively.

The best source would the Gefechtsberichte of companies or battalions, if they exist.

As an aside note, when researching the battle of Vevi on 12 April, I found a surprising amount of info in the Australian army archives. They even have scanned hand-written reports of platoon leaders. No NARA roll of the Whermacht that I have even approaches such level of detail. I presume such reports exitsed by they were not deemed important enough to keep in archive.

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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by MarkN » 11 Oct 2015 12:09

xristar,

Now I'm really confused.... :(

In your last post, you wrote, "As far as your question "what sort of scale of LSSAH casualties are you ready to believe", the answer is, I believe J Keenan's list of names.".

This is completely the opposite to, "I am looking for proper complete figures, which I haven't found yet" which you posted on 7 Oct.

If you're happy that J Keenan has provided you with the full and complete list of casualties, there is no need to continue this discussion any longer.

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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by j keenan » 04 Feb 2017 13:01

Another Casualty of Greece
Schulz-Raase,Karl-Heinz
d.o.b 22.8.13 Hamburg
SS-Usch.
Stab I/SS-Art.Rgt.1

From Volksbund
Nachname:Schulz
Vorname:Karl-Heinz
Dienstgrad:Unterscharführer
Geburtsdatum:22.08.1913
Geburtsort:Hamburg
Todes-/Vermisstendatum:20.05.1941
Todes-/Vermisstenort: Str.Kazani-Klidi Pass, 300m südl.Wegab-
zweigung Florina

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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by eindhoven » 22 Feb 2017 17:16

Second grave from the left as viewed shows Böhme, Heinz, d.o.b. 23.1.17-14.4.41, 1/AA1, SS-Rttf.
3rd from left is Schröder, Rudolf, d.o.b. 9.11.07-14.4.41, 1/AA1, SS-Hstuf.
4th from left is Furche, Bernhard, d.o.b. 4.3.22-14.4.41, 1/AA1, SS-Mann
img_300277_48855.jpg
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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by Harro » 22 Feb 2017 18:40

1st grave from the left is SS-Mann Heinz Poppmüller, 5th and 6th are Rottenführer Erich Quast and SS-Mann Karl Rapp.

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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by j keenan » 17 Jul 2017 19:37

Henke, Alfred, ki.a 4.41, 5/LAH could be Henke, Gottfried, d.o.b 25.7.19, Strm.
Just to confirm Alfred Henke is in fact Gottfried k.i.a. 10.4.41
Gottfried Henke
Gottfried Henke is buried in the military cemetery in Dionyssos-Rapendoza.
Endgrablage: Gruft 1 Reihe 4 Platte 3
Surname: Henke
Forename:Gottfried
Rank:Rottenführer
Date of birth:25.07.1919
Place of birth:Ebersbach Löbau/Sa.
Date of death/becoming missing:10.04.1941
Place of death/becoming missing: Marina

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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by smetanin albert » 29 Jan 2020 07:40

About F.Witt
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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by smetanin albert » 29 Jan 2020 07:45

About Schröder
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Re: LSSAH casualties in Greece 1941

Post by smetanin albert » 09 Jun 2021 08:08

About Furche
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