Treblinka Perpetrators

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steve248
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by steve248 » 16 Jul 2011 08:26

As neither Robin (here in the UK) nor Joe Pop (in Australia) visited Kew how do you think they obtained this decode?
Both these guys have corresponded with me over the years. The "deathcamp.whatever"website also have my unattributed article on their website - they did a couple of years ago and possibly still.
You might also check Bogdan Musial (ed.), "Aktion Reinhardt. Der Völkermord an den Juden im Generalgouvernement 1941-1944", Fibre Verlag, Osnabrück, 2004, pp 431-447 - "Der britische Nachrichtendienst: entschlüsselte Funkmeldungen aus den Generalgouvernment".

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Hecht
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by Hecht » 16 Jul 2011 08:57

Steve, you have a PM.
Thanks

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Eddy Marz
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by Eddy Marz » 16 Jul 2011 10:03

steve248 wrote:As neither Robin (here in the UK) nor Joe Pop (in Australia) visited Kew how do you think they obtained this decode? Both these guys have corresponded with me over the years. The "deathcamp.whatever"website also have my unattributed article on their website
Well, there's no way I could have known that.
steve248 wrote:You might also check Bogdan Musial (ed.), "Aktion Reinhardt. Der Völkermord an den Juden im Generalgouvernement 1941-1944", Fibre Verlag, Osnabrück, 2004, pp 431-447 - "Der britische Nachrichtendienst: entschlüsselte Funkmeldungen aus den Generalgouvernment".
Thanks for the info

regards
Eddy

michael mills
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by michael mills » 19 Jul 2011 07:04

I know that two researchers discovered among the enigma decrypts in the Public Records Office a telegram from Globocnik's office to Eichmann's office, giving the total number of Jews shipped to Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka and Lublin (Majdanek) as at end 1942, and that they published that telegram in a journal article.

If steve248 is one of those researchers, let him tell us so, and we will be glad to give him credit for discovering the decrypt and publishing it for the benefit of historians.

The article by the researchers expressed the view that the telegram was the source of the figure quoted in the Korherr Report of the total number of Jews "processed" through camps in the Generalgouvernement. That is an entirely reasonable view, given that we know that Korherr was stationed in Eichmann's office for the purpose of preparing his statistical report, and that he sent out telegrams to German offices in the field, asking for statistics on the number of Jews deported by them. The telegram sent from Globocnik's office in Lublin and decrypted at Bletchley Park was obviously a response to a request from Korherr.

The article also made the dubious claim that Heydrich's first name was actually spelled "Reinhardt". That was historically false, since we know that Heydrich's father, the composer Bruno Heydrich, named his son after a character in his opera "Amen", and the name of that character was definitely spelled "Reinhard". There is extant a score of the theme from the opera with the title "Reinhards Verbrechen"; that score was shown on the TV series "The SS", and is documentary proof of the true spelling of Heydrich's first name.

steve248
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by steve248 » 19 Jul 2011 08:46

steve248 is indeed one of the two researchers to whom Michael Mills alludes.

We made a reasonable case about the use of "Reinhardt" and "Reinhard" in relation to the organization using this name in Lublin. Since 2001 we have seen numerous other references to Heydrich's first name as both Reinhard and Reinhardt.

We are still waiting for anyone to rebut the main theme of the article that the decode in question and the numbers it quoted perfectly match those in the Korherr report.

Until such a rebuttal comes to light and goes through peer review the article stands the test of time. And after 10 years since the article was published both Peter and I have moved on to other research projects.

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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by michael mills » 20 Jul 2011 01:09

We are still waiting for anyone to rebut the main theme of the article that the decode in question and the numbers it quoted perfectly match those in the Korherr report.
Why waste time waiting? I do not think any reasonable person would try to rebut that thesis, since it perfectly fits the available evidence.

Korherr, stationed in Eichmann's office in Berlin, sent a telegram to Globocnik's office in Lublin, asking for the number of Jews who had been saent to the camps under Globocnik's control as at end 1942. Hoefle in Globocnik's office sent a reply telegram, giving the figures for each camp and the total, and Korherr then entered that total in his report. That is the most reasonable interpretation.

As for the designation "Einsatz Reinhardt", as I recall the article advanced two theses:

1. That the official name of the section of Globocnik's office responsible for running the extermination camps under his control was always "Einsatz Reinhardt", as demonstrated by the wording on the official stamp used by that section, and that other variants such as "Einsatz Reinhard" and "Einsatz Reinhart" were misspellings by poorly educated staff, that were eventually discarded; and

2. That that designation derived from Heydrich's first name, which was actually spelled "Reinhardt", an unusual variant of a first name.

The first thesis is most probably correct.

The second thesis remains unproven, since the spelling of Heydrich's first name as "Reinhardt", which appears in SS personnel records, was a recording error, possibly by a semi-literate clerk, and Heydrich himself only ever used the spelling "Reinhard". Such misspellings are quite common; I for example fairly regularly find my name spelled in official correspondence to me as "Micheal".

So the jury is still out on the question of whether "Einsatz Reinhardt" and "Aktion Reinhardt" were named after the first name of Heydrich, or after the surname of another person (which latter better fits the actually spelling).

What is known from post-war testimony is that there were individuals who came across the designation "Einsatz Reinhardt", and concluded that it had been named after the recently assassinated Heydrich. That might account for the variant "Reinhard" which appears in earlier documentation; it could have used by persons who were aware of the correct spelling of Heydrich's given name, or at least were aware of the normal spelling of the word when used as a given name.

The standardisation of the spelling as "Reinhardt" in later documentation, particularly in documents of the WVHA, suggests a spreading of awareness that the operation with that designation had not been named after Heydrich, as some may have incorrectly assumed, but after the surname of another person. There may even have been at some stage a directive stating that the variant "Reinhard" was not to be used, since the designation did not derive from Heydrich, and that was what led to the standardisation of the spelling in official correspondence.

To assume that "Einsatz Reinhardt" was in fact named after Heydrich, perhaps on the basis of a directive by Himmler, is to posit that initially the incorrect version of his first name was chosen as the official designation, that some persons who knew the correct spelling of his name used it in drafting official correspondence, and that finally the correct spelling was discarded altogether in favour of the incorrect spelling.

Such a thesis is contrary to logic, and less reasonable than the thesis that initially a surname was chosen as an official designation ("Reinhardt" is a normal surname spelling), that some persons used the given-name version in the belief that the designation derived from Heydrich's first name, and that finally the assumed connection with Heydrich was definitively repudiated, with only the surname variant being used thenceforward in official correspondence.

pjoseph
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by pjoseph » 19 Nov 2011 18:40

Hi there, I am new to this board and have this question.

In "The Franz Photo Story", the last picture shows Kurt Franz on "leave from prison" with his wife.
http://www.deathcamps.org/euthanasia/franzstory.html

Did his prison sentence also let him go on vacation? Did anyone interview him in prison? Did he ever express remorse?

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Eddy Marz
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by Eddy Marz » 19 Nov 2011 19:09

Hi PJoseph;
Franz was released from prison on health reasons in 1993 and died in 1998. He claimed all along to have never killed anyone and to have only accomplished his duty.

Colon
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by Colon » 20 Nov 2011 01:03

Hello

first I will say a big sorry for my bad englisch!
I will tell you a little story about Kurt Franz! In the year 1987 I must stay for 3 months in the JVA Remscheid and so I met Franz. I had no idea that he was a Nazi murder. He was a large strong man and he wear all time a Jogging Dress!
One day a camera team came in the JVA and make a Interview with him, so another inmate told me who this man is!
So it was not the first TV/Movie Team to came to him.
Later I heard that Franz become a strong ban (Verbot) for make Interviews! he must know that a guard was not the right man in a nazi trail?!
I never spoke one word with him (Franz) and today I google his name and come to this side!

greetings

carman
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by carman » 23 Nov 2011 20:44

I was recently reading Jankel Weirniks A Year in Treblinka,,and in the first or second chapter he mentions Kurt Franz being there during the roundup. Is this something Franz would have involved himself in ?

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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by pjoseph » 25 Nov 2011 15:40

I was well aware of Kurt being released etc. In fact Kurt Franz sent Rosa Freud (Sigmond Freud's sister to the gas chamber after telling her that once she "showered' she would be put on a train back to Vienna.)

Colon--your information about Kurt Franz in 1973 at JVA Remsscheid is very interesting! Do you know who the interview was by? I would LOVE to hear him answer questions after he has had 30 year or more to think on his deeds.

Who did the ban on the ineverviews? Kurt himself or the authorities?

best
Paul

Colon
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by Colon » 25 Nov 2011 17:07

pjoseph wrote: Colon--your information about Kurt Franz in 1973 at JVA Remsscheid is very interesting! Do you know who the interview was by?
Who did the ban on the ineverviews? Kurt himself or the authorities?
I dont know from where the Interview Team was comming, but I know that a few more Interviews with him are made! (not only from Germany)

the ban comes from the authorities! Later I heared that Franz see Demjanjuk on TV and say that this Iwan was not the right man! Maybe it was better for some reasons that Franz can't tell this the Court in Israel (at this time)?

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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by pjoseph » 12 Dec 2011 01:40

Hi Colon--as always interesting information. If you ever locate a interview of him done in prison, do let me know.

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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by trespasser07 » 19 Jan 2012 17:14

When Gitta Sereny had her interviews with Franz Stangl in Dusseldorf prison, was there a reasonn why she did not interview the other members of the Treblinka staff who where being held there e.g Franz, Mentz and Miete etc. I think they where all imprisoned at the same location but no contact was allowed.

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"We believe in what we do!" - written in Friedrich Rainer's Guestbook by Odilo Globocnik in April 1943.

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Eddy Marz
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Re: Treblinka Perpetrators

Post by Eddy Marz » 19 Jan 2012 18:37

My guess is that the reason for the choice was that Stangl, as Kommandant (the 'best' according to nazi standards), was by far the most important and interesting person to talk to; he had obviously plenty of key information and also an interesting background. He had worked in the textile industry (therefore a real job and specialization) prior to being involved in T4 and then AR. Although he was pretty thorough with his job at Treblinka, it also troubled him immensely and created rifts with his wife (whom he was very much in love with). All this summed up made excellent material for an interview (but Sereny had already a book in mind). He also was undoubtedly more fluent and 'educated' than either Franz, Miete, or Mentz. No contact was allowed between them for obvious inquiry reasons.

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