Demographic issues are highly discussed always, but 6 million is simply plain nonsense, no one seems to take into account the number of emigrated Jews before and during war, the ones dead by sickness or famine inside camps, the mistaken records, the lack of reliable info, the population counted before the conflict...as Shimon Peres recently said, "this harsh criticism of Israel is a form of anti-semitism..."; nothing more proper to keep Israel out of its proven Terrorism of State condition...
All those factors have been taken into account by historians, my dear True Believer, and the higher end of the range of estimates is still a contender. I suggest the reading of the following country-by-country study edited by German historian Wolfgang Benz:
The very discussion in forbidden worlwide
Discussion forbidden on a world wide level, or nonsensical propaganda forbidden in some countries, my friend?
, and that´s the main reason why the so-called "Revisionists" must keep themselves in anonymity...
From what I’ve seen, the main reason for the “Revisionist” habit of writing under pseudonyms is that it allows them to “multiply” themselves and to create fake “authorities” supporting their theories.
the most intriguing fact is that, if it´s such an obvious matter, why can´t one discuss and be convinced by so clear arguments and proofs?
The issue is discussed in a number of works of serious historiography, and the arguments and evidence they present are convincing to everyone other than the True Believers who put their hands before their eyes so as not to see what they don’t want to see.
Everyone suffered from famine and sickness in Germany, especially typhus, during World War II...
That’s just plain nonsense. By ruthlessly exploiting the occupied territories of Eastern Europe, particularly the Soviet Union, the Nazis managed to grant the German population a quasi-peacetime living standard in terms of food and public health until very late in the war, and even towards the end of it there was no “famine and sickness, especially typhus” in Germany, except maybe in the eastern areas where people were desperately trying to get away from the Soviet troops.
why can´t we just research such facts?
You are free to research whatever you like. Go to Germany and have a chat with a number of elder people who lived through the war period. I can arrange you an interview with my aunt, if you want. She spent the war in the rubble of the industrial city of Essen.
For any lawyer and Law student, the Nürnberg trials were a notorious joke, and one of the biggest mistakes in the history of Law and Jurisprudence...why not discuss that?
Another contention that is simply wrong. Only a minority of legal scholars and politicians, some of them with obviously polemic intentions, have considered the Nuremberg trials to be fallacious from a legal point of view.
The Nuremberg trials were more controversial when they happened then they are today. It was a new idea and new procedures had to be established. Some were uncomfortable with the idea of trying men for starting the war when there had never been a trial like this before. Others have been bothered by the death sentence given to Julius Streicher and the light sentence given to Albert Speer. Today there are very few legal scholars who accept the technical arguments about whether the trial should have been held. Even those reputable scholars who disagree base their objections on their legal philosophy. All agree that the Tribunal took its job seriously and gave the defendants a fair trial.
Source of quote:
http://www.holocaust-history.org/short- ... berg.shtml
Don´t you guys seek the truth?
What truth are we supposed to see? This one, perhaps?
What about the lamps made of Jewish skin? Is there any scholar still able to defend such lies?
I don’t know if the skin was Jewish. I think it is more likely to have been the tattooed skin of criminal camp inmates at Buchenwald that the camp commander’s wife Ilse Koch took fancy to. Yet lampshades made of human skin existed at Buchenwald. There is documentary and physical evidence to this rather unrepresentative folkloristic detail. Have a look at some of the exhibits:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... s-3420.jpg
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... wald02.jpg
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... runken.jpg
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... -doc04.gif
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/ftp ... -doc01.gif
If you need a translation of the documentary evidence, please let me know.
But that´s OK, we´ve seen the movies and already have been influenced by them...
Do you expect to learn history when you go to the movies, my friend? I expect entertainment and nothing else.
What about the "Final Solution" dogma
A dogma only in your own highly dogmatic mind, my friend. Himmler even had his statistician Richard Korherr prepare a report on the interim progress (until the end of 1942) of “THE FINAL SOLUTION OF THE EUROPEAN JEWISH QUESTION”. I have prepared a translation of the document which can be found on the following thread of this forum:
The Korherr Report
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... 6216f687f5
, potential deportation to Madagascar or the like?
One of the alternatives considered that the Nazis eventually dropped because it was not feasible.
What about the decrease in jewish deaths of Auschwitz, from 4 MILLION to 400,000??? No further arguments allowed??
What have you been reading (or smoking), my friend? Here’s the evolution and current state of historical research on the Auschwitz-Birkenau figures:
William Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich
, Simon and Schuster New York, 1960
How many hapless innocent people - mostly Jews but including a fairly large number of others, especially Russian prisoners of war - were slaughtered at the one camp of Auschwitz? The exact number will never be known. Hoess himself in his affidavit gave an estimate of ‘2,500,000 victims executed and exterminated by gassing and burning, and at least another half million who succumbed to starvation and disease, making a total of about 3,000,000’. Later at his own trial in Warsaw he reduced the figure to 1,135,000. The Soviet government, which investigated the camp after it was overrun by the Red Army in January 1945, put the figure at four million. Reitlinger, on the basis of his own exhaustive study, doubts that the number gassed at Auschwitz was ‘even as high as three quarters of a million.’ He estimates that about 600,000 died in the gas chambers, to which he adds ‘the unknown proportion’ of some 300,000 of more ‘missing’, who were shot or died of starvation and disease. By any estimate the figure is considerable.
Emphasis is mine. The figure of 1,135,000 victims of the Auschwitz-Birkenau death camp, given by Höß at his Warsaw trial, is in line with most posterior estimates by historians:
- Dr Josef Kermisz, from the Jewish Historical Commission in Poland, wrote in 1949 that this Commission had evaluated the number of victims of Auschwitz at 1 500 000;
- Gerald Reitlinger in 1953 estimated at 800 000 to 900 000 the number of Jewish victims of Auschwitz;
- Raul Hilberg, in The Destruction of European Jews
, 1961, estimated the number of Jewish victims of Auschwitz at 1 million and the total number of victims of Auschwitz at 1.1 million.
- Helmut Krausnick declared in 1964, at the process against former members of the Auschwitz staff in Frankfurt, that the total number of victims of Auschwitz was between on million and one and a half million;
- Georges Wellers in 1983 provided an estimate of 1.3 million Jewish victims at Auschwitz and a total of 1.5 million victims of the camp;
- Franciszek Piper, in a study that started in 1980 and the results of which were presented in 1991 and 1994, gave as the total number of victims of Auschwitz a minimum of 1.1 million and a maximum of 1.5 million.
What about the German civilians dead in Dresden, Hamburg and other towns, any condolences available?
What about the Russian/Japanese/American acts of atrocity in WWII or newer conflicts? Is that also "DENIAL"?
Innocent victims of war and mass murder whose fate has been extensively discussed on this forum and probably would be discussed even more extensively if it was not for the apologists of National Socialism who try to set them off against the victims of the Nazis. I have no problem, by the way, with the contention that the genocide of the Jews has been overemphasized in relation to other similar events, including but not limited to the genocide and mass murder of non-Jews by the Nazis which claimed far more victims than the genocide of the Jews. Here’s an online article that you might enjoy:
Assaults on Truth and Memory: Holocaust Denial in Context
by Ward Churchill
I think Churchill makes some of your points, though in a more appropriate and reasonable way. Which does not mean that I agree with all his figures, some of which I consider exaggerated by far. My own ideas on the order of magnitude of Nazi genocide and mass murder are summarized i.a. on the following threads of the old forum:
Why the Jews and the gas chambers?
http://pub3.ezboard.com/fskalmanforumfr ... =257.topic
Non-Jewish victims of Nazi violence
http://pub3.ezboard.com/fskalmanforumfr ... D=79.topic
The holocaust is THE most efficient way to legitimate any wrongful actions by Israel, and this is truly the saddest part of it...
Sad indeed, but is that a justification for trying to lie away the murder of millions of innocent people by the Nazis?
and the "Nazi" label will forever put whoever wants to talk about the problem in a historical manner really out of the spotlights, and into a dictatorship of psychological torture...
I’d say that who wants to discuss issues in a historical manner will never have a problem anywhere. Blind fanatics trying to sell propagandistic distortions of historical facts in support of an ideological and political agenda are likely to have problems in some countries, however.
Let´s not use double standards, people;
Exactly, my friend. Write that behind your ears, and tell it to your fellow True Believers.
justice is for ALL, not some...
It sure is, but before you try anybody you have to catch him, and mass murderers at state level unfortunately don’t get caught unless they are utterly defeated in a major war.