Crusader OOB

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diciassette2000
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Re: Crusader OOB

#196

Post by diciassette2000 » 02 Nov 2019, 17:46

A small contribution ... if you can serve ....

Regia Aereonautica 19/11/1941
-5.a Squadra Aerea
--SETTORE EST
---8.o Stormo B.T. (Martuba with S.79 (13 efficient/25 on charge)
---13.o Stormo B.T. with:
----11.o Gruppo B.T. with: (all the Group 14 efficient/15 on charge)
-----1.a Squadriglia B.T. (Barce with BR20)
-----4.a Squadriglia B.T. (Barce with BR20)
----43.o Gruppo B.T. con: (all the Group 13 efficient/15 on charge)
-----3.a Squadriglia B.T. (Martuba with BR20)
-----5.a Squadriglia B.T. (Martuba with BR20)
---239.a Squadriglia B.a.T. (Derna with Ju87 (2 efficient/2 on charge)
---279.a Squadriglia Siluranti (Derna with S79 (4 efficient/5 on charge)
---19.a Squadriglia R.S.T. (Derna with S79 (4 efficient/11 on charge)
---20.o Gruppo C.T. con: (all the Group 27 efficient/36 on charge)
----351.a Squadriglia (Ain el Gazala with G50 (detached to 155.o Gruppo)
----352.a Squadriglia (Martuba with G50)
----353.a Squadriglia (Martuba with G50)
---155.o Gruppo C.T. with: (all the Group 20 efficient/24 on charge)
----351.a Squadriglia (Ain el Gazala with G50)
----378.a Squadriglia (Ain el Gazala with G50)
---153.o Gruppo C.T. with (all the Group19 efficient/36 on charge)
----372.a Squadriglia (Derna with Macchi200)
----373.a Squadriglia (Derna with Macchi200)
----374.a Squadriglia (Derna with Macchi200)
--- 376.a Squadriglia C.T. (Bir Hacheim with CR42 with 9 efficient/11 on charge)
---67.o Gruppo O.A. con: (all the Group 8 efficient/15 on charge)
----129.a Squadriglia O.A. (Ain el Gazala with Ro37b)
----132.a Squadriglia O.A. (Bir Hacheim with Ro37b)
--SETTORE CENTRALE
---244.a Squadriglia B.T. (Bengasi with S81 with 2 efficient/4 on charge)
---209.a Squadriglia B.a.T. (Bengasi with Ju87 (1 efficient/5 on charge)
---174.a Squadriglia R.S.T. (Berka with S79 (6 efficient/8 on charge)
---160.o Gruppo C.T. con: (all the Group with 38 efficient/43 on charge)
----393.a Squadriglia (Bengasi with CR42)
----394.a Squadriglia (Bengasi with CR42)
----360.a Squadriglia C.T./155.o gruppo (Bengasi with G50 with 6 efficient/11 on charge)
---2.o Gruppo A.P.C. (16.a and 23.a Squadriglia)(Berka with Ghibli with 3 efficient/4 on charge)
---15.o Gruppo O.A. With: (all the Group with 8 efficient/14 on charge)
----32.a Squadriglia O.A. (Agedabia with Ca311)
----125.a Squadriglia O.A. (Agedabia with Ca311)
---196.a Squadriglia Regia Marina (Bengasi with CZ501 with 4 efficient/8 on charge)
---145.o Gruppo T (part) (Bengasi with S81/S82 with ??? efficient/9 on charge)
---614.a Squadriglia Soccorso (a section) (Bengasi with CZ506 with 1 efficient/1 on charge)
--SETTORE OVEST
---98.o Gruppo B.T. con: (all the Group 3 efficient/8 on charge)
----240.a Squadriglia B.T. (Castel Benito with BR20)
----241.a Squadriglia B.T. (Castel Benito with BR20)
---236.a Squadriglia B.a.T. (Castel Benito with Ju87 (3 efficient/5 on charge)
---175.a Squadriglia R.S.T. (Castel Benito with S79 (3 efficient/4 on charge)
---3.o Gruppo C.T. with: (all the Group with 36 efficient/42 on charge)
note: A section detached to Misurata (6 on charge/3 efficient)
----153.a Squadriglia (Sorman with CR42)
----154.a Squadriglia (Sorman with CR42)
----155.a Squadriglia (Sorman with CR42)
---12.o Gruppo C.T. with: (all the Group 16 efficient/32 on charge)
----159.a Squadriglia (Castel Benito with G50)
----160.a Squadriglia (Castel Benito with G50)
---69.o Gruppo O.A. con: (all the Group 14 efficient/14 on charge)
----118.a Squadriglia O.A.(Zuara with Ca311)
----123.a Squadriglia O.A. (Zuara with Ca311)
---1.o Gruppo A.P.C. (27.a and 121.a squadriglia)(Mellaha with Ghibli with 9 efficient/17 on charge)
---103.a Squadriglia Sahariana (Misurata with S81 with 5 efficient/6 on charge)
---Aviosquadriglia Sahariana(Hon with Ghibli with 9 efficient/11 on charge)
---145.a Squadriglia Regia Marina (Pisida with CZ501 with 2 efficient/5 on charge)
---145.o Gruppo T with: (all the Group with 3 efficient/15 on charge)
----604.a Squadriglia (Castel Benito with S74/S75/S81/S82)
----610.a Squadriglia (Castel Benito with S74/S75/S81/S82)
---614.a Squadriglia Soccorso (Karamanly with CZ506 with 3 efficient/6 on charge)

OOB Sahara Libico (1/11/1941)
Comando del Sahara Libico
-Comando artiglieria (Hon)
-Comando Genio (Hon)
-Plotone comando Truppe Sahara (Hon)
-Settore di Hon-Brak
--Presidio di Hon
--Comando compagnia CCRR del Fezzan (Hon)
--Stazione CCRR (Hon)
--Posto fisso CCRR (Uaddam)
--37.o battaglione libico (Buerat el Hsum)
--56.a e 57.a compagnia mitraglieri da posizione (Hon)
--Compagnia Sahariana (without trucks)(Hon)
--Compagnia Sahariana (without trucks)(Hon)
--Banda Orfella (Gruppo irregolare)(Hon-Uaddan)
--Banda Riah (Gruppo irregolare)(Socna)
--Reparto autonomo mitragliere da 20mm (Hon)
--Due sezioni mitragliere (Hon)
--838.a batteria da 77/28 (del 330. Regg GAF)(Hon)
--21.a compagnia controcarro da 47/32 Granatieri di Sardegna (dell’esercito)(Hon)
--Compagnia mista del genio (Hon)
--Presidio di Brak
--Tenenza CCRR (Brak)
--Stazione CCRR (Brak)
--Stazione CCRR (Berghin)
--Posto fisso CCRR (Edri)
--55.a compagnia mitraglieri da posizione(Brak)
--828.a batteria da 77/28 (del 330.o regg. GAF)(Brak)
--un plotone della 2.a compagnia meharisti dello Sciati(Brak)
-Settore Ubari-Serdeles-Ghat
-Settore di Ubari
--Presidio di Ubari
--Stazione CCRR (Ubari)
--Stazione CCRR (Gaar Bend Beja)
--54.a compagnia mitraglieri da posizione(Ubari)
--un plotone della 2.a compagnia meharisti dello Sciati(Ubari)
--Tenenza CCRR (Ghat)
--Stazione CCRR(Ghat)
--53.a compagnia mitraglieri da posizione (Ghat)
--comando e due plotoni della 1.a compagnia meharisti del Fezzan(Ghat)
--Banda cammellata Tuaregh (Tim Alcun)
--un plotone della 1.a compagnia meharisti del Fezzan (Tim Alcun)
--un plotone della 1.a compagnia meharisti del Fezzan (Tenut Mellet)
--Presidio di Serdeles
--Stazione CCRR (Serdeles)
--52.a compagnia mitraglieri da posizione (Serdeles)
-Settore di Murzuch
--Presidio di Murzuch
--Tenenza CCRR (Murzuch)
--Stazione CCRR (Murzuch)
--Stazione CCRR (Traghen)
--Stazione CCRR (Umm el Araneb)
--Stazione CCRR (Zuila)
--Stazione CCRR (Tegerhi)
--Stazione CCRR (Gatrun)
--Stazione CCRR (Sebha)
--Posto fisso CCRR (Uau el Kebir)
--Posto fisso CCRR (Gara di Sebha)
--829.a batteria da 77/28 (del 340.o regg. GAF)(Murzuch)
--49.a compagnia mitraglieri da posizione (Murzuch)
--compagnia Sahariana di Murzuk (Murzuch)
--Comando e tre plotoni della 3.a compagnia meharisti della Ghibla(Fongul)
--plotone della 3.a compagnia meharisti della Ghibla (Tegerhi)
--Comando e due plotoni della 2.a compagnia meharisti dello Sciati (Sebha)
--Compagnia Sahariana (Umm el Araneb)
--48.a compagnia mitraglieri da posizione (Sebha)
--840.a batteria da 77/28 (del 340.o regg. GAF)
-Settore di Zella
--Presidio di Zella
--Stazione CCRR di Zella
--batteria libica da 75/77 su tre pezzi (Zella)
--4.a compagnia del 18.o battaglione libico (di rinforzo)(Zella)
--Nucleo cammellato CCRR (Tagrifet)

All the best
Maurizio

WAKEN
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Re: Crusader OOB

#197

Post by WAKEN » 17 Jul 2020, 16:58

I found some details of weapons in the war diary of 14 Infantry Brigade Anti-Tank Company. Again this is probably subject to change, and if it is recorded I'll let you know:

WO169/1289 – 14 Infantry Brigade Anti-Tank Company – 1941

22 October 1941 TOBRUK
Position and arms of Plns.
No.1 3 Vickers-Terni 37mm in dug in Tanks.
No.2 3 Bofors 37/40mm Portee.
No.3 3 Vickers 2-pdr.

I'll aim to get the other two Brigade AT Coys next time.

Cheers

Tom
Hi Tom, did you find the details for the AT Coys of the other 2 brigades (16 and 23)?

Cheers,

Neil


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Urmel
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Re: Crusader OOB

#198

Post by Urmel » 17 Jul 2020, 22:21

23 Bde had 16 guns. Type not known. This may help. There were many 47/32 captured guns in service in Tobruk.

https://rommelsriposte.com/2019/07/28/5980/
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

Tom from Cornwall
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Re: Crusader OOB

#199

Post by Tom from Cornwall » 17 Jul 2020, 22:23

Neil,

I could only find a war diary for 23 Bde AT coy (WO169/1301).

It states that it was formed from ATk platoons from D.L.I. and 4 Border Regt in Sept 41, on arrival in Tobruk a platoon from 1 Essex joined. At the end of that month the diary records an "extraordinary establishment of 16 guns" instead of normal 9.

Regards

Tom

WAKEN
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Re: Crusader OOB

#200

Post by WAKEN » 18 Jul 2020, 00:52

thanks very much guys

WAKEN
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Re: Crusader OOB

#201

Post by WAKEN » 12 Sep 2020, 11:28

The Corpo d' Armata di' Manovra had this corps level unit: battaglione genio autoportato G
I assume that's a motorised engineer battalion. Does the 'G' signify that it was a Guastatori battalion, (XXI Corps had XXXI battaglione guastatori (four compagnie assault engineers)?

diciassette2000
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Re: Crusader OOB

#202

Post by diciassette2000 » 12 Sep 2020, 15:31

The CAM on the eve of Crusader was in charge of a company of the 31st sappers battalion (of the genius)...not a battalion.....
All the best
Maurizio

WAKEN
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Re: Crusader OOB

#203

Post by WAKEN » 13 Sep 2020, 10:30

Thanks Maurizio. So XXXI battaglione guastatori had 3 companies with XXI Corps and 1 with CAM.

Regards

Neil

diciassette2000
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Re: Crusader OOB

#204

Post by diciassette2000 » 13 Sep 2020, 13:15

Yes.....
All the best
Maurizio

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Urmel
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Re: Crusader OOB

#205

Post by Urmel » 13 Sep 2020, 21:59

History of the battalion says all four companies were with XXI C.A.. 2 and 7 with Bologna and 1 and 8 with Pavia. Given that they planned the assault on Tobruk this would make sense. https://rommelsriposte.com/2016/01/24/x ... -crusader/
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

diciassette2000
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Posts: 91
Joined: 29 Aug 2003, 21:05
Location: Switzerland

Re: Crusader OOB

#206

Post by diciassette2000 » 14 Sep 2020, 10:48

In fact, from a coeval Italian report it would appear that the situation of the departments of the sappers genius at the time of Crusader was the following:
XXI Corpo d’Armata
Divisione “Pavia”
XXXI Battaglione Guastatori (Tobruk)
1° Compagnia Guastatori "Giaguaro"
8° Compagnia Guastatori "Leone"
Divisione “Bologna”
XXXI Battaglione Guastatori (Tobruk)
2° Compagnia Guastatori "Lupo"
7° Compagnia Guastatori "Tigre"
XXI Corpo d’Armata
1° Raggruppamento Speciale Genio
Divisione “Bologna”
XXXII Battaglione Guastatori
3° Compagnia Guastatori "Folgore"
4° Compagnia Guastatori "Uragano"
It is also true that in another Italian document of the time a provisional company of the genius attached to the RECAM is reported ... it is certainly not a clear matter
However good Urmel .....
All the best
Maurizio

diciassette2000
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Re: Crusader OOB

#207

Post by diciassette2000 » 14 Sep 2020, 14:21

An explanation could be that the document that provides for a sappers company in the RECAM staff which was then the CAM regiment at the time of Crusader refers to the staff PLANNED for the unit by the Supreme Command. However, as is well known, this planned composition was never officially recognized, nor was the entire unit recognized, which therefore remained at a provisional level. Specifically, then the same was hastily put on the field not respecting that composition in fact and so he never had his company sappers. This evidence would also emerge from the diary of the unit which as of November 9, 1941 in its composition does not mention any unit of genius in its ranks ....
all the best
maurizio

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Urmel
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Re: Crusader OOB

#208

Post by Urmel » 15 Sep 2020, 10:51

Thanks for this Maurizio!
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

MitteG
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Re: Crusader OOB

#209

Post by MitteG » 05 Jan 2021, 23:06

dor1941 wrote:
03 Sep 2011, 07:34
The remainder of 30th Corps:

1st South African Division: Major-General G.E. Brink
G.S.O. 1: Colonel S. Joubert
3rd S.A. Reconnaissance Battalion (3 companies of M-H armoured cars)
3rd S.A. Field Regiment (T.H.A.) (3 batteries with 24 25-pdrs)
7th S.A. Field Regiment (3 batteries with 24 25-pdrs)
7th Medium Regiment R.A. (25th/26th and 27th/28th Batteries with 16 4.5" guns)
1st S.A. Anti-Tank Regiment (4 batteries with 48 2-pdrs and 16 75mm/18-pdrs)
1st S.A. Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment (36 Bofors) (less 6 troops)
Regiment President Steyn (machine-gun battalion) (less 1st and 3rd Companies)

1st S.A. Infantry Brigade: Brigadier D.H. Pienaar
1st Bn, The Royal Natal Carbineers
1st Bn, The Transvaal Scottish
1st Bn, The Duke of Edinburgh's Own Rifles
1st Company Regiment President Steyn

5th S.A. Infantry Brigade: Brigadier B.F. Armstrong
1st Bn, The S.A. Irish
2nd Bn, The Regiment Botha
3rd Bn, The Transvaal Scottish
3rd Company Regiment President Steyn

The third brigade of this division-2nd S.A. Infantry Brigade-was left behind as the garrison of the Fortress of Mersa Matruh during Crusader. The 1st and 5th S.A. Brigades were fully motorized for their role in 30th Corps and were not dependent on extra reserve motor transport companies for a 'lift' like the New Zealand and 4th Indian Divisions.

Additions and corrections welcome.

David
Hi all! I've always thought that the NZ Div as well as the 7th Indian Bridge was fully motorized for Crusader. If they were semi-motorized, how would that differs regarding movement in a game covering this operation?
Monty: "Your men don't salute much."
Freyberg: "Well, if you wave to them, they'll usually wave back.

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Urmel
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Re: Crusader OOB

#210

Post by Urmel » 07 Jan 2021, 21:06

It wouldn't really as long as the trucks are available - a lot comes down to staff planning that isn't normally a feature in games.

https://crusaderproject.wordpress.com/2 ... mber-1941/
The enemy had superiority in numbers, his tanks were more heavily armoured, they had larger calibre guns with nearly twice the effective range of ours, and their telescopes were superior. 5 RTR 19/11/41

The CRUSADER Project - The Winter Battle 1941/42

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