Ju 52/3M payload/range charts

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Jon G.
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Re: Ju 52/3M payload/range charts

Post by Jon G. » 19 Oct 2011 11:45

phylo_roadking wrote: Then again...what do your sources say about the Ju52's ability to stay in the air on one engine....
I haven't checked, but - seeing that you have access to the Zivilversionen... book - perhaps you could tell us?
I mean, it is pretty generous to even categorize the 50 l. spill tank as a dedicated fuel tank.
Well, if you have any examples of a fuel tank of any sort plumbed into an aircraft's fuel system that wasn't "dedicated" to keeping an aircraft in the air...?
1) The 50 l. tank's capacity apparently was not counted towards the civilian Ju-52's total fuel storage, as stated in the manual, p. 54, 2), as expounded above, the 50 l. tank was rated 'optional' and 3) does not yet figure in any military configuration description of the Ju-52.

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Re: Ju 52/3M payload/range charts

Post by phylo_roadking » 19 Oct 2011 11:57

I haven't checked, but - seeing that you have access to the Zivilversionen... book - perhaps you could tell us?
Different PC today, I'll check tomorrow.
1) The 50 l. tank's capacity apparently was not counted towards the civilian Ju-52's total fuel storage, as stated in the manual, p. 54, 2), as expounded above, the 50 l. tank was rated 'optional' and 3) does not yet figure in any military configuration description of the Ju-52.
That's not an answer to what I asked...
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Re: Ju 52/3M payload/range charts

Post by Jon G. » 19 Oct 2011 12:09

Well phylo, I haven't been making any claims about the possible existence (and, by extension, the vital importance of) fuselage fuel tanks in the Ju-52. You have. That is why I am asking you questions about it.

Maybe it would be easier if you simply admitted that your upthread claim of fuselage auxiliary tanks in military versions of the Ju-52 simply does not stand up to closer scrutiny? And, by extension, if such a 50 l. tank did appear in a military version of the Ju-52, it would not have impeded its cargo capacity by any appreciable factor, nor would it have meant very much for the range of the aircraft?

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phylo_roadking
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Re: Ju 52/3M payload/range charts

Post by phylo_roadking » 19 Oct 2011 12:16

Maybe it would be easier if you simply admitted that your upthread claim of fuselage auxiliary tanks in military versions of the Ju-52 simply does not stand up to closer scrutiny?
ONCE we know that is the case for ALL the military models, I'll be glad to if that is the case. We do not yet know that.
nor would it have meant very much for the range of the aircraft?
This may change once I have the opportunity to track something down - but that won't be today.

But you're still not answering what I asked - have you any examples of a fuel tank of any sort plumbed into an aircraft's fuel system that wasn't dedicated to keeping an aircraft in the air...?
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Re: Ju 52/3M payload/range charts

Post by Jon G. » 19 Oct 2011 12:23

You're wriggling. I don't owe you any answers as to the importance of a 50 l. gravity tank aboard some civilian versions of the Ju-52, beyond what I've already given you (i.e. 'optional' and 'did not count towards total fuel storage').

Rather, you owe us an answer why it wasn't apparent in some military versions of the same aircraft, contrary to your earlier claims about fuselage fuel tanks.

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Re: Ju 52/3M payload/range charts

Post by Snautzer05 » 19 Oct 2011 13:34

What an un interesting discussion. Cant you pm each other instead of bickering here?

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Re: Ju 52/3M payload/range charts

Post by Jon G. » 19 Oct 2011 13:46

I can agree to the uninteresting part, but not to your suggestion. To me, calling another forum member on a claim of his - no matter how much they dodge, weave and obfuscate - is a matter of principle, and also of forum policy in general.

However, your very worthwhile contributions to this thread make it all worth our while. Carry on.

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Re: Ju 52/3M payload/range charts

Post by Jon G. » 19 Oct 2011 22:20

Transcribed from Erfurth & Miertsch Vom Original zom Modell: Junkers Ju 52

Ju 52/3mg1e and Ju 52/3mg2e

Civilian versions with BMW 132 A/C/D engines.

Ju 52/3mg3e

'Auxiliary bomber' Range improved due to the inclusion of 2,400 litre fuel tanks. Dry weight 6,310 kg. Take-off weight 9,500 kg. Airspeed 255/200/105 km/h. Climb to 3,000 meters 17.5 minutes. Ceiling 5,900 meters. Range 1,100 meters. Crew: 3-5. Built from 1934 to 1937

Ju 52/3mg4e

Transporter. Strengthened fuselage and cargo floor, large cargo door. Strengthened undercarriage, allowing increased take-off weight. Dry weight 6,300 to 6,900 kg. Speed 275/245/105 km/h. There's a large number of Rüstsätze depending on the mission. Built from 1937 to 1944.

Ju 52/3mg5e

'Land/sea transport' with choice of skis, pontons or wheel undercarriage. More radios. Could be equipped to tow the Gotha-242 glider. Dry weight 6,920 to 7,415 kg. Take-off weight 10,500, or 11,000 for the sea variant. Built from 1940 to 1944.

Ju 52/3mg6e

Transporter. Main changes: improved de-icing equipment, double instrumentation, detachable window gun-holders. Built from 1940 to 1944.

Ju 52/3mg7e

'Land/sea transport', broadly similar to /3mg5e, but wih an enlarged loading hatch and an improved Siemens auto-pilot. Built from 1941 to 1944.

Ju 52/3mg8e

Similar to /3mg6e, but with the improved Siemens K4ü autopilot. Built from 1941 to 1944.

Ju 52/3mg9e

Similar to /3mg4e, but with tropical equipment fitted, therefore also known as the Ju 52/3mg4e trop. Built from 1941 to 1943.

Ju 52/3mg10e

Similar to /3mg6e, but with an increased size loading hatch, de-icing equipment removed. Built from 1941 to 1944.

Ju 52/3mg11e

As /3mg10e, but with factory-fitted de-icing equipment. Built from 1942 to 1944.

Ju 52/3mg12e

Similar to /3mg11e, but with detachable armour plates. [I would like to see the performance of this mark of the Ju-52; it is also the first mark with BMW-132Zs rated at 800 hp each) Built from 1943 to 1944.

Ju 52/3mg13e

No mention of this mark. Superstition?

Ju 52/3mg14e

Similar to /3mg8e, but with engines rated at 800 hp each. Detachable armor plates. Last German Ju-52 model built. 1943 to 1944.

There's a lot of sub-marks and various Rüstunssätze which I haven't mentioned. One is however of particular interest:

Ju 52/3mgN 'Nürnberg', similar to /3mg4e, but with most bombing equipment removed, save for forward bomb bay. Range increased thanks to the inclusion of 3x525 liter fuel tanks (alas, it's not specified where they were located, I'd guess the deleted rear bomb bay is a candidate) for a total fuel capacity of 3,975 liters. Could be used as a flying tanker by the inclusion of a 'Grosstank' with tap and measuring gauge. Equipped with double instruments and de-icing gear. Built from 1940 to 1944

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Re: Ju 52/3M payload/range charts

Post by phylo_roadking » 20 Oct 2011 17:03

To me, calling another forum member on a claim of his - no matter how much they dodge, weave and obfuscate - is a matter of principle, and also of forum policy in general.
And what is the forum policy on Ad hominem attacks? http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1638927 Of all the medical problems I may have or have had in my life, a mental disorder or similar is not among them. However, I chose to let your frankly disgusting comment ride. There are most likely people on this forum with real such disorders - and we both know of one on the Forum staff - what's the Forum's policy on insulting or derogating their misfortunes?

I am perfectly willing - when we find the remaining material - to say I was wrong, if/when that's the case; that's what the process of acquiring information is about - learning...
So we are agreed that, in the current absence of evidence to the contrary, military versions of the Ju-52 did not carry their own fuel in their fuselages?
We are agreed that versions from the /3mg5e onwards did not carry their own fuel in their fuselages. That's what we have evidence for, courtesy of your good self.
But apart from your comment above -
Ju 52/3mg3e

'Auxiliary bomber' Range improved due to the inclusion of 2,400 litre fuel tanks.
...we still don't know anything about the fuel system on the last few interim versions...except going from your reference it changed away from something else for the /3mg3e. "Reichweitenerhöhung" as in "Reichweitehohung durch kraftstoffbehälter fur 2,400 liter" from P.69 of Erfurth & Miertsch's Vom Original zom Modell: Junkers Ju 52-Militarversionen means "range extended"...

Because this raises questions all of its own - for as we can see from the Zivilversionen fuel system diagram I posted up...as you've frequently pointed out, the "dedicated" tankage THERE is ALSO listed as being for 2,400 litres of fuel!!!

So - there's EITHER something amiss which one or other or both of the two ranges, Zivil- or Militarversion - BOTH of them from Erfurth & Miertsch! - OR Erfurth & Miertsch's use of the term "reichweitenerhöhung"!

For how is 2,400 litres extended over 2,400 litres? 8O

As for this -
Ju 52/3mg1e and Ju 52/3mg2e

Civilian versions with BMW 132 A/C/D engines.
...the 2e was also powered by 132Es.
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Re: Ju 52/3M payload/range charts

Post by Jon G. » 20 Oct 2011 19:13

The odd thing is that the authors of the modelling book give the 'expansion of range' as due to the inclusion of 2,400 liters worth of fuel tanks as reason for range increase - and when I go and check, it seems that the civilian version also had 2,400 liters of tank space. That's a bit like getting the same half of the same story twice :|

Otherwise, civilian versions seem to have been quite tailorable, according to customers' wishes - just as the military version was very adaptable to various roles. Maybe the 2,400 liter fuel capacity was only established as standard when the Luftwaffe began ordering Ju-52s?

From the many small tanks - seven in each wing, along with manual remarks that they can be expanded in the direction of the flaps - the Ju-52 probably owes something to its single-engine origins. It's an evolved design, as its many sub-marks show, but the /3m version itself was already a fairly developed machine by the time the Luftwaffe started ordering it.

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Re: Ju 52/3M payload/range charts

Post by phylo_roadking » 20 Oct 2011 19:31

but the /3m version itself was already a fairly developed machine by the time the Luftwaffe started ordering it.
There was actually considerable overlap between the miltarised versions and the civilian ones; the civilian ones designed and built after the /3mg1e was ordered include the 3m1 for Sweden, the 3mg for British airways (!) with P&W Wasps, the 3mg for Italy with Piaggio PXR motors, the 3mg for Poland with the Bristol Pegasus, two 3mho's for Lufthansa with Jumo 205c's, the 3mreo for Lufthansa, the 3mte with the BNW 132G/L, the 3m12 with 132Ls for FInland and finally the 3mZ/Z1 for Lufthansa with the 132Z-3....
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Re: Ju 52/3M payload/range charts

Post by peeved » 20 Oct 2011 19:44

phylo_roadking wrote:There was actually considerable overlap between the miltarised versions and the civilian ones; the civilian ones designed and built after the /3mg1e was ordered include the 3m1 for Sweden, the 3mg for British airways (!) with P&W Wasps, the 3mg for Italy with Piaggio PXR motors, the 3mg for Poland with the Bristol Pegasus, two 3mho's for Lufthansa with Jumo 205c's, the 3mreo for Lufthansa, the 3mte with the BNW 132G/L, the 3m12 with 132Ls for FInland and finally the 3mZ/Z1 for Lufthansa with the 132Z-3....
And civilian vesions built before the g1e included ce with the original 2000 l fuel capacity, ba, de. fe, f1e and ge. Source "Das Buch der deutschen Luftfahrttechnik, Textteil" by Bruno Lange.

Markus

Edit: 2050 l instead of 2000.
Last edited by peeved on 20 Oct 2011 23:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ju 52/3M payload/range charts

Post by peeved » 20 Oct 2011 19:49

Jon G. wrote:Maybe the 2,400 liter fuel capacity was only established as standard when the Luftwaffe began ordering Ju-52s?
According to "Das Buch der deutschen Luftfahrttechnik, Textteil" by Bruno Lange that seems to be the case. The g3e bomber seems to be the first version with 2400 l fuel capacity as opposed to the previous 2000 l tankage.

Markus

Edit: 2000 l in ten light alloy tanks in the wings fed with Junkers fuel pumps; for emergencies a (50 l) gravity tank and Allweiler hand pump in cockpit.
Last edited by peeved on 21 Oct 2011 00:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ju 52/3M payload/range charts

Post by phylo_roadking » 20 Oct 2011 19:52

Hi Marcus - the /3mf1e is an oddity indeed....but I'm not sure we can call it strictly "civilian" - there was only one, D-3012, and by the time it was ordered specifically by the Deutsche Verkehrsfliegerschule, the DVS was no longer an "open" flying school :wink:

I don't suppose Lange's book includes a fuel system diagram?
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Re: Ju 52/3M payload/range charts

Post by peeved » 20 Oct 2011 21:02

phylo_roadking wrote:I don't suppose Lange's book includes a fuel system diagram?
It would hardly live up to its name Textteil if it did.
Jon G. wrote:We have established that it's in the cockpit, only holds 50 l., and that the flight manual states that it can be left out if so desired, how debilitating for the Ju-52's performance as a transport aircraft would it have been to include it? Further to that, you may want to ask why it apparently - and I am happy to stand corrected, although your scan from Zivilversionen... does not cut it - was left out on military versions of the Ju-52?
According to Lange the 50 l tank was not included in the g3e bomber version because of the fire hazard.

Markus

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