Naval warfare

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Re: Naval warfare

Post by Juha Tompuri » 14 May 2019 05:55


lupodimare89
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Re: Naval warfare

Post by lupodimare89 » 15 May 2019 22:56

Greetings, I know it's an extremely minor thing compared to the recent discoveries of Soviet sub.wrecks but i was still digging some very unreported minor episodes of naval warfare and found another one that could deserve a check of Finnish sources:

Straight from russiaflot.ru chronicles:
2 сентября 1941
В районе о. Валаам наш ска МО захватил катер противника.
2 September 1941
Soviet MO boats captured an enemy boat at Valamo island (Ladoga Lake).

Full capture/seizure make the claim quite solid, it could have been
1) Some small/liason boat (in a similar way of capture of "E-32" on 25/Aug/42, presence of POWs etc.
2) Local fishing boat?

I have yet to ask russians or more details.

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Re: Naval warfare

Post by Mangrove » 19 May 2019 16:39

lupodimare89 wrote:
15 May 2019 22:56
Full capture/seizure make the claim quite solid, it could have been
1) Some small/liason boat (in a similar way of capture of "E-32" on 25/Aug/42, presence of POWs etc.
2) Local fishing boat?
Finnish war diaries do not record any kind of vessel sent to Valamo and no losses of any kind on September 2, 1941. The first Finnish reconnaissance force reached Valamo on September 20, 1941.

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Re: Naval warfare

Post by Mangrove » 17 Feb 2020 21:02

Two Finnish T-26 tanks along with a detachment from 3./JP 3 claimed to have destroyed two boats and at least 15 men at Gorka along the Svir River at around 7.45 a.m on 9 September 1941.

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Re: Naval warfare

Post by Mangrove » 18 Nov 2022 20:51

Example of Finnish after-action report where II/RTR 14 at Lake Onega claimed having sank Soviet tugboat (M 233 or 234), a barge and the pier at Peschanoe (Песчаное) with fire from 44. Rask. Ptri (152/45 C) and II/407. Kev. Ptri (152 H/37) between 3.05 and 3.17 p.m on 2 October 1942. Hits were observed by Muijaniemi observation post.

RTR_14_1.jpg
RTR_14_2.jpg
RTR_14_3.jpg
RTR_14_4.jpg
RTR_14_5.jpg
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Mangrove
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Re: Naval warfare

Post by Mangrove » 23 May 2023 20:47

According to after-action report by Rannikkotykistörykmentti 13 (SPK 21771), two Soviet guard ships approached Finnish positions from south of Lunkulansaari (Russian: Лункулансаари) in Lake Ladoga on 17 August 1942. After they got within five kilometres from the village of Hiiva in the southern tip of Lunkulansaari on 00.19 a.m, they engaged two Finnish tug boats pulling timber rafts from Tujamonsaari towards Mantsinsalmi. At the same time, other Soviets ships opened fire with circa 105 mm cannons from 12 kilometres away.

Finnish 309. Kevyt Patteri (SPK 17088) at Hiiva opened fire at 4600 metres on 00.22 a.m. After receiving several hits from circa 45-57 mm and 15 mm weapons, Finnish tug boat S/S Kelo was found grounded at Lunkulansaari at 00.47 a.m. One crewman was wounded in action. The Soviet boats captured a launch attached to one of timber rafts but the two men manning the launch escaped with a smaller boat. The launch was later found to be hit by a shell from Hiiva battery. After inspection, S/S Kelo was towed away the same day.

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Re: Naval warfare

Post by lupodimare89 » 27 Aug 2023 09:55

Mangrove wrote:
23 May 2023 20:47
According to after-action report by Rannikkotykistörykmentti 13 (SPK 21771), two Soviet guard ships approached Finnish positions from south of Lunkulansaari (Russian: Лункулансаари) in Lake Ladoga on 17 August 1942. After they got within five kilometres from the village of Hiiva in the southern tip of Lunkulansaari on 00.19 a.m, they engaged two Finnish tug boats pulling timber rafts from Tujamonsaari towards Mantsinsalmi. At the same time, other Soviets ships opened fire with circa 105 mm cannons from 12 kilometres away.

Finnish 309. Kevyt Patteri (SPK 17088) at Hiiva opened fire at 4600 metres on 00.22 a.m. After receiving several hits from circa 45-57 mm and 15 mm weapons, Finnish tug boat S/S Kelo was found grounded at Lunkulansaari at 00.47 a.m. One crewman was wounded in action. The Soviet boats captured a launch attached to one of timber rafts but the two men manning the launch escaped with a smaller boat. The launch was later found to be hit by a shell from Hiiva battery. After inspection, S/S Kelo was towed away the same day.
Greetings and very interesting episode! Lake Ladoga never cease to surprise, i will try to question someone on tsushima.su maybe if there is knowledge of the Soviet accounts of this fighting.
A pair of questions: it is known the name of the second finnish tug? Apart the launch, there are details on what happened to the tiber raft? suppose the wood it was recovered if it wasn't spoiled-damaged by the action/grounding.


PS: After a first quick search i found only this mention (source: https://marsu.ru/science/research_infra ... disser.pdf)
Основной задачей действий на путях сообщения противника стали поиск
и уничтожение отдельных катеров и судов на переходе и вблизи баз. Поиск
выполнялся катерами МО, действовавшими группами по два-три катера. За
летнюю кампанию 1942 г. были осуществлены четыре поиска. Первый поиск
проводился с 14 по 21 августа двумя группами катеров. Три катера МО № 206,
215 и 228 действовали в западной и северо-западной частях озера и два катера
МО № 205 и 113 – у восточного побережья.
Второй поиск проводился в ночь с
19 по 20 августа по приказу командующего КБФ для обнаружения и
уничтожения плавучих средств противника в районе о. Коневец – банка
Суханевская. Для поиска были выделены сторожевой корабль «Пурга» и катера
МО № 175 и 262.

PPS: Further edit.
Another Russian source confirms identity of the Mo-boats
On Ladoga, patrol boats M0-205 and MO-213 sank a lifeboat and damaged a tugboat that threw itself onto the rocks.
На Ладоге сторожевые катера М0-205 и МО-213 потопили лайбу и повредили буксир, который выбросился на камни.


As I suspected, they acted alone, possibly the Finnish ground artillery over-estimated a bit the Soviet firing.
In addition to my previous questions (identity of second tugboat, info about the woods-load etc.), i would also like to ask some extra info of this lost launch: motorboat or rowboat? Suppose wasn't worth to recover? Soviets doesn't mention to have suffered from heavy shelling, so merging the twom infom, imagine the boat was somewhat hit in the attack, took in tow and then abandoned when found leaking.

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Re: Naval warfare

Post by Mangrove » 27 Aug 2023 12:58

lupodimare89 wrote:
27 Aug 2023 09:55
In addition to my previous questions (identity of second tugboat, info about the woods-load etc.), i would also like to ask some extra info of this lost launch: motorboat or rowboat? Suppose wasn't worth to recover? Soviets doesn't mention to have suffered from heavy shelling, so merging the twom infom, imagine the boat was somewhat hit in the attack, took in tow and then abandoned when found leaking.
I couldn't find any futher information about the tugboats or the other timber raft from online sources. It is probable that the tugboats were operated by Itä-Karjalan sotilashallinto ("East Karelia military administration") or Impilahden sotilashallintopiiri ("Impilahti military administration district"). From the after-action report by Rannikkotykistörykmentti 13:

"When interrogating the captain of the tugboat (skipper Hopia), it became clear that the guard ships ("vartiomoottorivene", VMV) had shot at them from a distance of approx. 200 - 300 m with cannons and machine guns, and had captured a large boat with a cabin behind the log raft, where the two log men managed to escape in a small boat in the dark, rowing to the shore of Lunkula. The tugboat steered to shore at Lunkula for shelter and ran aground. It has several 45 m/m shell holes and dozens of 15 m/m bullet holes, one shell had exploded in the engine room cutting off the steam pipes and wounding the engineer in the head and hand. The boat's mast was broken. The boat was removed from the shore and towed to Pitkäranta for repairs.

The second tugboat reached strait at Mantsi with its rafts. - The men of the tugboat reported that the Russians had blown up the raft boat, because the shells from Hiiva's battery hit right near the ships and threw the boat off. - The boat has drifted to the shore of Tujamo and it has been determined that it was hit by a shell from Hiiva's battery, because the shrapnel from the shell has torn the boat quite badly. The Russkies had to detach it because the projectile had destroyed it."
[...] Hinaajan päällikköä (laivuri Hopia) kuulusteltaessa selvisi että VMV-veneet olivat ampuneet heitä n. 200 - 300 m:n etäisyydeltä tykeillä ja konekivääreillä sekä kaapanneet tukkilautan perässä olleen kajuutalla varustetun ison veneen, jossa olleet kaksi tukkimiestä pääsivät pikkuveneellä pimeässä pakoon soutaen Lunkulan rantaan. Hinaaja ohjasi Lunkulan rantaan suojaan ja joutui karille. Siinä on useita 45 m/m kranaatin reikää sekä kymmenittäin 15 m/m luodin reikiä, eräs kranaatti oli räjähtänyt konehuoneessa katkaisten höyryputket ja haavoittaen konehoitajaa päähän ja käteen. Laivan masto oli katkennut. Laiva saatiin irroitetuksi karilta ja hinatuksi Pitkärantaan korjattavaksi. Toinen hinaaja pääsi lauttoineen Mantsin salmeen. - Hinaajan miehet ilmoittivat ryssien räjäyttäneen lauttaveneen, koska Hiivan patterin ammukset osuivat aivan laivojen lähelle ja heittäneen veneen irti. - Vene on ajautunut Tujamon rantaan ja on siihen todettu osuneen Hiivan patterin ammus, sillä ammuksen sirpaleet ovat repineet venettä aika pahoin. Ryssät ovat joutuneet sen irroittamaan siitä syystä että ammus on sen tuhonnut. [...]

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Re: Naval warfare

Post by lupodimare89 » 27 Aug 2023 15:54

Thanks for the extra details!

By the way, checking the lists of MO-4 boats and considering the two contrasting russian report, i am quite sure the correct pairing was MO 205 and 213 ("113" likely a typo").

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