Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

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wm
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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by wm » 01 Apr 2012 10:18

michael mills wrote:What that means is that 1.7 million Polish Jews had survived the harsh German rule for a period of 30 months. In other words, German rule did not inevitably lead to Jews dying en masse; they were able to survive the minimal means of existence imposed upon them.

Accordingly, there is no reason to believe that Jews would have died en masse living under German rule in Madagascar either.
Because of the host of totally unfamiliar but infectious and deadly diseases ravaging the island: malaria, dengue fever, yellow fever, Lassa fever, bacterial and protozoal diarrhea, plague, chikungunya and many others. They would have no immunity to them.

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by michael mills » 01 Apr 2012 11:35

Israel had advanced civilization, agriculture and infrastructure in place already. Millions of people were living there.
What time period are you describing?

That is the case now, but in 1940?

When Jewish immigration started after the First World War, Palestine was an undeveloped place, with a medieval society and economy. The native population was only about 500,000, kept small by endemic disease.

The Jewish immigrants created a modern economy, but only in a small part of the country, where the Jewish settlements were situated.

But why could they not have done the same thing in Madagascar? Jewish settlement in Palestine was dependent on a colonial administration that favoured that settlement, and money to fund it. I see no reason why those factors could not have applied in Madagascar also, with the existing French colonial administration required under the final peace settlement with Germany to provide the same sort of support to Jewish settlement in that country as the British Mandatory administration did in Plaestine.

It is noteworthy that the German planners took the British mandate in Palestine as a model for the future administration of Madagascar.
The arable lands of Madagascar even after so many years are lying useless. It is that hard to do something useful there.
Perhaps that is because there was no Jewish settlement there in the 1940s. Jewish settlers from Europe introduced modern agriculture to Palestine, even though the Jews were not traditionally farmers, but learned how to farm in the hachsharot, including those the National Socialist Government allowed to operate in Germany. Why could they not have doen the same thing in Madagascar, where there is far more arable land than in Palestine?

In this counterfactual situation, with an end to the war between Britain and Germany in summer 1940, I see large numbers of additional hachsharot being set up in both Germany and Poland, in addition to those already there, training the local Jews to be farmers in Madagascar.

If you have read the memoirs of Antek Zuckermann, one of the leaders of the Jewish Underground in Warsaw, you will know that there was a Hachsharah at Czerniakow, on the outskirts of Warsaw, which the German occupiers allowed to continue in operation up to 1942; it became one of the secret bases of the Jewish Underground.

If history had taken a different turn, the hachsharah at Czerniakow, together with others, could have been training Polish Jews to become farmers in Madagascar.
Because of the host of totally unfamiliar but infectious and deadly diseases ravaging the island: malaria, dengue fever, yellow fever, Lassa fever, bacterial and protozoal diarrhea, plague, chikungunya and many others. They would have no immunity to them.
When Jews began settling in Palestine, malaria was a big problem, but they were able to eradicate it with the use of expendable Egyptian labour and large capital inputs provided by wealthy Jewish benefactors in France.

There were a lot of Jewish doctors in Germany and Poland; I am sure they would have been able to eradicate all those nasty diseases in Madagascar, just as American doctors were able to eradicate yellow fever in Panama.

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by wm » 01 Apr 2012 12:22

The Jewish emigration to Israel was like this:
First Aliyah, 35,000 Jews ( 1882-1903), they established agricultural communities,
Second Aliyah, 40,000 from Russia (1904-1914), formed kibitzes and self-defense organizations,
Third Aliyah, 40,000 from Russia, built roads and towns,
Fourth Aliyah, 82,000 from Central Europe (1924–1929), many middle class families,
Fifth Aliyah, 250,000 from Europe (1929–1939), many professionals, doctors, lawyers and professors.

It took more than half a century to create a country ready to accept a hundred thousand of new citizens per year. According to the Madagascar Plan 4 million Jews would have been dumped in the island during four years period, 50% of the entire population of today's Israel.

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by waldzee » 01 Apr 2012 17:32

michael mills wrote:
Israel had advanced civilization, agriculture and infrastructure in place already. Millions of people were living there.
What time period are you describing?

That is the case now, but in 1940?

When Jewish immigration started after the First World War, Palestine was an undeveloped place, with a medieval society and economy. The native population was only about 500,000, kept small by endemic disease.

The Jewish immigrants created a modern economy, but only in a small part of the country, where the Jewish settlements were situated.

But why could they not have done the same thing in Madagascar? Jewish settlement in Palestine was dependent on a colonial administration that favoured that settlement, and money to fund it. I see no reason why those factors could not have applied in Madagascar also, with the existing French colonial administration required under the final peace settlement with Germany to provide the same sort of support to Jewish settlement in that country as the British Mandatory administration did in Plaestine.

It is noteworthy that the German planners took the British mandate in Palestine as a model for the future administration of Madagascar.
The arable lands of Madagascar even after so many years are lying useless. It is that hard to do something useful there.
Perhaps that is because there was no Jewish settlement there in the 1940s. Jewish settlers from Europe introduced modern agriculture to Palestine, even though the Jews were not traditionally farmers, but learned how to farm in the hachsharot, including those the National Socialist Government allowed to operate in Germany. Why could they not have doen the same thing in Madagascar, where there is far more arable land than in Palestine?

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No surveys no land use patterns no tranportation studies no hydrological studies no export financing no steamship studies no health planning.
NO etc etc etc etc etc...
Lots of HOT AIR & FAKERY

OTOH, the story of the Palestine madnate PLANNING, on line, is volumes....

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 01 Apr 2012 19:10

Hi Michael,

There doen't seem to have been much of a halt in the setting up of the Warsaw Ghetto in 1940.

The original target for the Ghetto's inception - by the onset of winter - was met.

In early August instructions were issued that began to direct Jews there.

The creation of the Ghetto was officially announced in October, but it appears to have functionally existed in embryonic form for anything between two and four months by then.

Of what did the July suspension actually consist? When was the suspension decreed and when was it rescinded?

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by wm » 01 Apr 2012 20:59

As far as I know It was not about ghettos, it was suspension of Jewish population transfers inside Germany and the occupied the territories because they were unnecessary before the deportation to Madagascar. According to Friedrich Krüger and Hans Frank the decision was made shortly before July, 10.
It seems the order was never formally rescinded. We know that as late as March 1941, the Madagascar Plan was discussed at a meeting in the Hitler's chancellery and at that time Philipp Bouhler was made the gauleiter of Madagascar.
But according to Franz Rademacher the Holocaust was discussed as early as August 1940 so the final decision could have gone either way, a Madagascar Holocaust or local Holocaust.
This from the Artur Eisenbach's Nazi Policy of Jewish Extermination.

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by waldzee » 04 Apr 2012 21:18

This topic has been ‘captured’ by an unrealistic scenario.
If Britain makes peace in 1940, the LOGICAL choice of conclusions are:
1. The Jewish population does not fall under the e Nazi desire to rid the continent of Europe of its Jews. ( most likely )-OR:
2. If a Jew free Britain is part of the peace agreement with the third Reich the Logical conclusion is that the approx. 300,000 British Jews will relocate to Mandated Palestine, not to Madagascar.

The Madagascar premise for British Jews is an interesting ‘alt novel’ scenario, but bears little resemblance to any reality on the ground. Hence a lot of the ‘debate’ on this topic is on a shaky premise- vigorously advanced.
The Mandate system, pre war, worked rather well for Grat Britian- It provided a stable supply base.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Ma ... nstrument)
Last edited by waldzee on 05 Apr 2012 00:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by michael mills » 05 Apr 2012 00:42

There doen't seem to have been much of a halt in the setting up of the Warsaw Ghetto in 1940.

The original target for the Ghetto's inception - by the onset of winter - was met.

In early August instructions were issued that began to direct Jews there.
Sid,

I suggest you look at the timeline.

In early July 1940, Frank ordered a halt to the construction of new ghettos on the grounds that they were no longer necessary, given that the transportation of the Jews of the Generalgouvernement out of Europe would shortly begin.

The orders to construct a ghetto in Warsaw were issued in October. By that time it was apparent that Britain would not surrender, and that the transportation of Jews out of Europe could not commence in the near future. Accordingly, the ghettoisation process was recommenced.

No great mystery here.

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by michael mills » 05 Apr 2012 00:45

But according to Franz Rademacher the Holocaust was discussed as early as August 1940
Could we have some more information on that please.

When did Rademacher make such a claim? Was it a post-war statement?

What exactly did he say? Did he use the word "Holocaust" or some other word?

If he used the term "Final Solution", then the issue disappears, since that term first appears in the files of the German Foreign Office in 1939, and clearly refers to the expulsion of Jews from Germany.

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by Terry Duncan » 05 Apr 2012 01:04

In early July 1940, Frank ordered a halt to the construction of new ghettos on the grounds that they were no longer necessary, given that the transportation of the Jews of the Generalgouvernement out of Europe would shortly begin.
The Generalgouvernement was not the only authority in the German controlled parts of Poland, what had the other areas decided to do?
By that time it was apparent that Britain would not surrender, and that the transportation of Jews out of Europe could not commence in the near future.
Why not? There are plenty of other nations through which the Nazi's could have attempted to route Jews if that was really the intention. Do you have any evidence that alternative routes were considered or attempted?

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by michael mills » 05 Apr 2012 03:09

Why not? There are plenty of other nations through which the Nazi's could have attempted to route Jews if that was really the intention. Do you have any evidence that alternative routes were considered or attempted?
As I have pointed out a number of times already, an attempt was made to get the Soviet Union to accept the Jews of German-occupied Poland under the population transfer agreement that was part of the Borders and Friendship Treaty of 28 September 1939.

The Soviet Government refused on the grounds that the transfer agreement only applied to Russians, Belorussians and Ukrainians living in German-occupied Poland, not to Jews.

The transfer of two million Jews from Germany, Austria, Czechia and German-occupied Poland to other neutral countries was not feasible due to the reluctance of those countries to accept them.

After the conquest of France, any movement of Jews out of the German-controlled area was dependent on the acquiescence of Britain, which controlled the seas around Europe. Internal British Government documents indicate conclusively that it was opposed to any German attempt to "extrude" the Jews under its control across the lines into Allied-controlled territory.

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by Terry Duncan » 05 Apr 2012 03:56

The transfer of two million Jews from Germany, Austria, Czechia and German-occupied Poland to other neutral countries was not feasible due to the reluctance of those countries to accept them.
So surely you can show where the Nazi government applied to these nations to allow some form or transit by Jews wishing to leave Germany? Unless approaches were made it is incorrect to state that travel across these states to any distant destination was impossible.

Also there remains the question of why did the Nazi's not shift the Jews to any of the off shore islands in the Baltic if it was desired to expel them from mainland Europe, or even to send them to somewhere like Norway? To advance the claim that because the supposed 'Madagascar' plan was not possible due to Britain refusing to surrender and therefore the Nazis decided to kill the Jews, it must be shown firstly that the plan was a serious proposition that had been worked out in detail (at the time and not postulations made now) and secondly that the abandonment of the plan and subsequent move to genocide was the result of the inability to transport Jews to Madagascar and not simply a change of heart by the Nazis or even the long desired outcome. There seems little to link the decision to commit genocide to a lack of ability to transport 'undesirable' peoples elsewhere, as there were far more people to be killed than just the Jews, such as the Gypsies for whom no plans to exile them somewhere impractical seem to exist. Therefore it would appear that you wish people to believe that the Nazi's were willing to exile the Jews, but also willing to commit genocide against the Gypsy people for no obvious reason if such lengths as exile to Madagascar for the Jews had been a serious consideration. After all, how could they exile the Jews but not other 'undesirables' if they really were willing to go to such lengths to find homes elsewhere in the world? The alternative is that such grandiose ideas as the Madagascar one were never really a serious consideration.

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by michael mills » 05 Apr 2012 05:47

To advance the claim that because the supposed 'Madagascar' plan was not possible due to Britain refusing to surrender and therefore the Nazis decided to kill the Jews
The impracticability of the Madagascar Plan was not the reason for the commencement of the physical extermination of the Jews under German control.

It is more likely that it was the failure to defeat the Soviet Union and gain possession of distant regions in the Soviet interior to which Jews could be exiled.

Documentary evidence shows a German intention to concentrate Soviet Jews in rural reservations where they would be used for various types of agricultural work, and also grow their own food. There are also recorded intentions of deporting non-Soviet Jews to those same regions; for example, in January 1940 there were queries from Berlin to regional authorities in occupied Ukraine about the possibilities of accommodating Jews transported there from Germany.

The concept of deporting Jews under German control into distant regions in conquered Soviet territory seems to have been either a replacement for the Madagascar Plan that could not be implemented due to the continuing war with Britain, or perhaps a supplement to it.

The existence of an intention to solve the "Jewish Question" by deporting all European Jews into conquered Soviet territory is quite compatible with the initial orders issued to German security forces, which mandated the summary execution of only specifically defined groups of Jews, those in State and Party positions.

Furthermore, the implementation of that deportation plan actually started in November 1941, with the deportation of German Jews to Minsk and Riga. It came to a halt after the completion of the first phase, due to the German defeat before Moscow.

The failure to conquer more distant parts of the Soviet Union, and the continuation of a high-intensity war, prevented the full implementation of the deportation plan after the first phase, and led to a gradual recourse to limited and localised killing actions, which rapidly escalated to comprehensive extermination in some areas.

But there is no reason why one should not believe in the existence of a pre-existing intention on Hitler's part to kill all Jews, right from the time he first came to power, or perhaps even earlier, if that is what one finds more emotionally satisfying. There is a good deal of disagreement among historians on that question, although the majority seem to have concluded that mass-killing was not the original intention of the German Government.

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by little grey rabbit » 05 Apr 2012 09:48

Are the conditions in Madagascar so much different from those in South Africa or Mauritius?

Given a choice of colonising Palestine or Madagascar, I would choose Madagascar myself.

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Re: Britain makes peace in 1940 - What happens to the Jews?

Post by waldzee » 05 Apr 2012 16:47

michael mills wrote:
But according to Franz Rademacher the Holocaust was discussed as early as August 1940
Could we have some more information on that please.

When did Rademacher make such a claim? Was it a post-war statement?

What exactly did he say? Did he use the word "Holocaust" or some other word?

If he used the term "Final Solution", then the issue disappears, since that term first appears in the files of the German Foreign Office in 1939, and clearly refers to the expulsion of Jews from Germany.
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Given that we have already posted proof from the official NASDAP newspaper of March 1920- you can safely assume that it was discussed in the succeeding two decades :roll:

Given that Mr. Mills has repeatedly avoided posting the details that turn a 'Scheme' ino a 'plan', is he perhaps requesting proof at a higher standard than he yields"?

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