Koto Fortress

Discussions on all aspects of the Japanese Empire, from the capture of Taiwan until the end of the Second World War.
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AVV
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Re: Koto Fortress

Post by AVV » 16 Mar 2012 08:41

Hello!
Taranov wrote:Or it's turret from O-I super heavy tank.
Hm-m... May be. At least, this source:
http://japan.greyfalcon.us/O.htm
states that It has been reported that a single copy of the O-I was manufactured before the end of the war and was shipped to Manchuria.
Still, I don't know if this source is reliable.

Best regards, Aleks

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Taranov
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Re: Koto Fortress

Post by Taranov » 16 Mar 2012 16:50

Also - torsion suspension of improved Type 5 Chi-ri.
Image

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tom!
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Re: Koto Fortress

Post by tom! » 16 Apr 2013 17:46

Hi.

Well, this chapter of the Pacific War is quite unknown here. And it´s quite hard to get informations about the final battle. I was also quite surprised to see that they built special fortress turrets for the guns. This leads to so many questions like:

Are there any online sources regarding details about the fortifications (below and on the surface) and the attack itself?

Any further informations about the turrets avaliable (online or books/magazines)?

Did they built a turret for the 41 cm Howitzer, too?

Was there a shelter or tunnel for the Type 90 24 cm Railway Gun? Did they use a firing rail curve or did they use a turntable for traverse? Where was the railway entrance of the fortress?

Did they have a Pier or a habor on the river?

Yours

tom! :wink:

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YC Chen
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Re: Koto Fortress

Post by YC Chen » 21 Apr 2013 12:39

There have been a number of Chinese books on Japanese fortifications in Manchuria, the most comprehensive of them so far is a huge two-volum book "日本关东军要塞"(Fortress of Japanese Kwantung Army) with over 1000 pages. But this book is mainly based on the survey of Chinese researchers of the remaining fortress, and I also would like to know if there are any good Japanese books on the technical aspect of these fortresses.

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Akira Takizawa
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Re: Koto Fortress

Post by Akira Takizawa » 21 Apr 2013 13:40

Japanese fortifications in Manchuria were top-secret before WWII. So, there are no good sources even in Japan. The following book would be rather helpfull.

http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4056032025/

Taki

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tom!
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Re: Koto Fortress

Post by tom! » 21 Apr 2013 16:31

Hi.

Well I´d expected this. Thx for the info so far.

There is a nice report about the attack on Kutou Fortress in this quite well known publication about the August Storm. It includes hints that the 41 cm howitzer was mounted inside a turret, too. As a scientific publication it includes a list of books used to write it. Maybe there is something useful in there....

Yours

tom! :wink:

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YC Chen
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Re: Koto Fortress

Post by YC Chen » 25 Apr 2013 12:48

Akira Takizawa wrote:Japanese fortifications in Manchuria were top-secret before WWII. So, there are no good sources even in Japan. The following book would be rather helpfull.

http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4056032025/

Taki
Do you mean that the technical documents of these fortifications have been lost, or were just still classified and not avaliable to the public?

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YC Chen
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Re: Koto Fortress

Post by YC Chen » 25 Apr 2013 12:55

tom! wrote:Hi.

Well, this chapter of the Pacific War is quite unknown here. And it´s quite hard to get informations about the final battle. I was also quite surprised to see that they built special fortress turrets for the guns. This leads to so many questions like:

Are there any online sources regarding details about the fortifications (below and on the surface) and the attack itself?

Any further informations about the turrets avaliable (online or books/magazines)?

Did they built a turret for the 41 cm Howitzer, too?

Was there a shelter or tunnel for the Type 90 24 cm Railway Gun? Did they use a firing rail curve or did they use a turntable for traverse? Where was the railway entrance of the fortress?

Did they have a Pier or a habor on the river?

Yours

tom! :wink:
I have an interesting Chinese article dealing with these two guns, especially the 24cm Schneider. I'll read it carefully this weekend and try to answer your questions. Now I can only remember that the railway gun do have underground tunnels and they can still be seen today.

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Akira Takizawa
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Re: Koto Fortress

Post by Akira Takizawa » 25 Apr 2013 13:23

YC Chen wrote:Do you mean that the technical documents of these fortifications have been lost, or were just still classified and not avaliable to the public?
Both. At the end of the war, they were first burned. And there was no source in the public, because they were top-secret.

Taki

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YC Chen
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Re: Koto Fortress

Post by YC Chen » 26 Apr 2013 14:03

Thanks a lot for the answer.

I searched the Chinese websites for info on Koto fortress, and found out that a small portion of the fortress has been opened to the public, and there is also a nice little museum above the ruins with all kinds of unearthed things:
http://wwx16888.blog.163.com/blog/stati ... 722221942/
(I'm interested in the rusty mortar barrel, never see a mortar like this before. A simplified design introduced towards the end of the war for mass production? I have read accounts of mortars produced in Japanese-controlled Mukden arsenal used wooden baseplates and other simplifing meathods towards the end of the war. )

And here is a news article of the discovery of a 41cm shell near the fortress. Of course this isnt the first time a shell like this is unearthed, but I think this one is in rather good condition:
http://hulin.dbw.cn/system/2007/08/17/050938119.shtml

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tom!
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Re: Koto Fortress

Post by tom! » 26 Apr 2013 16:33

Hi.

Thx.

The museum and the monument can be found on Google Earth around 45°59'28.83"N, 133°39'50.00"E.

The hills are covered by trees and bushes. Are the artillery positions still visible below the trees or were they removed?

Yours

tom! :wink:

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Re: Koto Fortress

Post by FreyFox » 12 May 2013 02:20

Videos position 41cm howitzers Koto fortress.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXUPoZTdfUo

Plan 41cm howitzer, made after the assault.
Image

The destroyed bunker 41cm howitzers.
Image

The report of the fighting to eliminate Hutou fortified area.

Fragment:

"...Leaders led military operations after the escape commander fortified area and his deputy commander of the North Node defense. The officer corps was obviously the one who decided to fight to the end. It must be said that not only the officers, but the rank and file are usually captured not give up, in the case of apparent inevitability fall into our hands, undermined or grenade ripped his stomach..."

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YC Chen
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Re: Koto Fortress

Post by YC Chen » 12 May 2013 12:42

Hello

Thanks for posting these! Extremely interesting!

The remains of the 41cm gun blockhouse is also opened to public now. However the top has been completely blown up(perhaps by the Russians), and only the base for the gun is visible today(see the attachment and here: http://www.wangtu.com/jixi/youji/23113.html).

Do you have some other interesting information on Japanese fortresses in Manchuria? And what was the final destiny of the 41cm gun? Some information found on the Internet mention that Chinese fisherman could still see the 41cm gun placed on the Soviet territory across the river until 1960s, then it disappeared.
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FreyFox
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Re: Koto Fortress

Post by FreyFox » 12 May 2013 14:33

YC Chen wrote: Do you have some other interesting information on Japanese fortresses in Manchuria?
Information is available. True, there is one problem. The names of the fortified areas in both Japanese and Russian versions differ.
For example - Хутоуский укрепрайон - Koto Fortress.
What's the name of the fortress - Дуннинский УР, Пограничненский УР?



Koto Fortress which according to preliminary intelligence, before the start of the offensive.
http://nezabudem.info/about/fort/files/hut1_map.jpg
http://nezabudem.info/about/fort/files/hut2_map.jpg

Statist
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Re: Koto Fortress

Post by Statist » 20 Jun 2013 08:14

YC Chen wrote:Do you have some other interesting information on Japanese fortresses in Manchuria? And what was the final destiny of the 41cm gun? Some information found on the Internet mention that Chinese fisherman could still see the 41cm gun placed on the Soviet territory across the river until 1960s, then it disappeared.
Hello, in 2009-2010 I worked in Russian military archive in Podolsk (CAMO) near Moscow, there are many documents about August war 1945. In 2009-2011 I am twice went to the Hutou and saw fortification of Hutou fortress.
The plan of 410-mm howitzers casemate is a part of Soviet album of Japanese fortification in Manchuria, 1945. One exemplar of this album are located in CAMO, other exemplar in Central museum of Artillery (St. Petersburg). I think one of my copy achieved to this forum.
CAMO documents says, in 1946 Red army moved Japanese 410-mm and 305-mm howitzers from Hutou to the nearest soviet city Iman and sent them by rail to the West. With them were sent to repair two Russian 305-mm howitzers model 1915. Two other Russian 305-mm howitzers left standing in their positions near city Iman. One of them were standing close to the bank of Iman river, at a distance of 2-3 kilometers from Hutou. I think Chinese fishman until 1960s could saw this gun. But your message very interesting, I don’t know place of Ussuri river, where a fisherman could saw the gun.

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