Atlantikwall or Maginot bunker? (Stp. Anna)

Discussions on the fortifications, artillery, & rockets used by the Axis forces.
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myt1prod
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Re: Atlantikwall or Maginot bunker? (Stp. Anna)

Post by myt1prod » 20 Sep 2012 14:37

I also recalled forgetting to visit a bunker I noticed on GE, laying along a small path I never took before. I found a nice (in my guess) MG-bunker with flanking wall, which I haven't seen documented before... so I measured it.
MG Flanking bunker.jpg
... one thing strange I couldn't find a floorplate?? I measured up to 210cm and could still poke the ground without bumping onto the floorplate. (it could explain why it's brothers - see below - are more and more falling apart).

this bunker is absolutely free from graffiti (although some carseats inside); I could find only two inscriptions of which the origin is unknown:
- on the ceiling their is painted - in brown paint- a letter 'L' (photo is crooked due to the position it was shot from) (also a letter 'T' - in the same paint - can be found on the ceiling.
- on one of the walls; a word I cant figure out... (most posibly postwar I guess)
MG Flanking bunker2.jpg
At first I thought 'this must clearly be German, as it is the only to be found in the area'... and then I continued my fieldtrip researching area's and walkingpaths in these dunes which I never visited before... and then I found 2 more of these MG-bunkers ... and even remembered another (more known and heavy sanded) bunker which also has a flanking wall. These two I found are falling apart, the walls are sliding away from under the roof. No extensive traces of rebarb can be found apart from single strans of rebarb here and there. The roof seems to have no connection to the walls; it seems like a prefab roofplate laying unattached on top. Also in these bunkers I couldn't establish the floorlevel (without digging!). So this far 4 of these MG bunkers can be found, each with small differences in configuration.
An overview of the other MG-bunkers: (these I have yet to measure, the drawings are based on how I recall them, GE and photo's)
MG Flanking bunker1.jpg
Grtz
jean
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Re: Atlantikwall or Maginot bunker? (Stp. Anna)

Post by myt1prod » 21 Sep 2012 13:50

firing directions1.jpg
The firing directions of these MG-bunkers and other emplacements/bunkers in the area.
(the fact these MG-bunkers are coloured red doesn't mean they are German... untill accurate information pops up they could be either German or French (Maginot). They are (most of them) however not mentioned in any (contradicting) information on the Maginot Line.)
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Re: Atlantikwall or Maginot bunker? (Stp. Anna)

Post by myt1prod » 21 Sep 2012 14:12

Something in between...
not AW but Maginot, but still a nice find;
Some of the Maginot bunkers have a welldocumented name - mostly ingraved in concrete - this name however I haven't seen documented before. Did nobody notice??
Troyes.jpg
In my opinion it says 'Troyes' although the topline of the 'T' is very fade... An 'I' stands out more clearly, but as most of these bunkers were called after a town this seems unlikely because no town 'Iroyes' exists.
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AW
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Re: Atlantikwall or Maginot bunker? (Stp. Anna)

Post by AW » 21 Sep 2012 14:55

hi,
good work... and nice pics :)
which number is the one you measured and draw?
greetz
Alex

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Re: Atlantikwall or Maginot bunker? (Stp. Anna)

Post by myt1prod » 21 Sep 2012 15:21

Hi alex,
Thanks!
The one I've made a drawing of is the n°2

grtz, jean

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Re: Atlantikwall or Maginot bunker? (Stp. Anna)

Post by myt1prod » 21 Sep 2012 15:57

Les dunes du perroquet2.jpg
An overview of all the (known) structures in the area;
- some of them not documentated to my knowledge
- some of them mentioned in different contradicting sources either to be AW or Maginot
(the ones I marked as maginot - and visited - are practically all the same model as the observation MG-type in the photo above (Troyes). The few others I marked as certain to be Maginot is due to their position and/or due to the fact that they can be found elsewere on the Maginotline and/or their engraved name proves them to be Maginot.)

note: I have about 60 structures, which is a lot more then most sources which handle this region... my point being: there is still a lot to be found and (dis)uncoverd over here.

Based on the above map I'm busy on making a overall and detailed series of plans of the region. If someone can provide me with aditional information; please do.
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Re: Atlantikwall or Maginot bunker? (Stp. Anna)

Post by myt1prod » 23 Sep 2012 20:53

Hello

I went and vistited the blue dot under the n°3 on the above map and I found yet another of these MG-bunkers. Only a small part of the roof and entrance is above the sand, once inside you can stand upright.
MG Flanking bunker3c.jpg
These are the measurements;
notice how the doorway is 30cm broader then the other MG-bunker I've already measured (here above). This configuration seems to be exactly the same as the n°4 MG-bunker on the above map, which I have yet to measure.
(As the bunker is heavely sanded on the exteriour, I couldn't establish if the flankingwall is present. I drew this flanking wall based on the presence on the other resembling MG-bunkers in the area)
MG Flanking bunker3b.jpg
It's position on the firingdirections map (3bis):
firing directions1.jpg
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Re: Atlantikwall or Maginot bunker? (Stp. Anna)

Post by myt1prod » 23 Sep 2012 21:19

it's official; none of the on the net information on the 'zone des dunes' of the Maginotline is accurate and/or correct :P .

I seem to find more and more contradicting or wrong information each time I visit the spot;
- wrongly mentioned bunkers
- forgotten bunkers
- misplaced bunkers...

I even start to wonder if the commonly used numbering for thes Maginotconstructions (eg. B1 les dunes, B1bis les dunes 'la rochelle', B1ter les dunes, B2, B3, ...) is correct and where it originated from, as it seems to be more and more wrong.
On the above map (coloured dots) I've already indicated some maginotstructures which are not mentioned in any other sources concerning this part of the Maginotline.
Yesterday I came accross a new (even to me) Maginot-observationbunker which isn't documented and seems to be kept unnoticed up till now. The bunker is not accessible, only the observationtower is visible.
maginot observation.jpg
On another maginotlocation I've marked on the above (coloured dots) map proves that the bunker with the name 'Moulins' has been misplaced by the few sources which mention it; these sources claim this bunker is laying near the old railroad, but in reality it is positioned in the middle of the dunes. (notice the red paint which is still present)
The bunker 'Nancy', in between the railroad and the mainroad, is well documented. Although most sources mention the name, they don't show photo's of this nametag... perhaps they didn't notice when visiting the spot.
nancy - moulins.jpg
(for those interested; plans of the2 types of Maginot gunemplacements in the area will folow)
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Re: Atlantikwall or Maginot bunker? (Stp. Anna)

Post by myt1prod » 23 Sep 2012 22:49

The French Maginot open 'roof' emplacement for 25mm canon antichar (AT). Some sources mention this to be emplacement for an AA gun instead... I don't know anything on this specific subject, but noticing the scharte which points to Belgium it seems perhaps unlikely they were originally intended to serve as an AA gun emplacement. It does seem more assumable that the Germans re-used it for this purpose; although the scharte would have been of little use for them, these platforms seem suitable and ideal to also serve as AA or FlaK emplacement.
Perhaps somebody recognizes the fixtures for the gun and the spacings and can inform me on the possible gun-types which fit these measurements?
AC25.jpg
This second one served as an covered emplacement for a 75mm canon, also facing Belgium. The backside is (or appears to be) open. In my opinion this one structure would have been of little use for the Germans or perhaps only during the siege of Dunkirk (44-45). Nothing indicates the Germans re-used this structure, although heavy damage could sugest it was heavely attacked or perhaps served as a shootingpractice?? The 'sandridge' on the roof is somehow unique as it is not found on other known Maginotstructures in the area (I don't know for other parts of the Maginot Line). Perhaps placed afterward, therefore perhaps indicating the Germans did re-use this emplacement?? (no trace of any emplacement on the roof can be found).
C75.jpg
Grtz
Jean
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Re: Atlantikwall or Maginot bunker? (Stp. Anna)

Post by AvB » 24 Sep 2012 08:21

Not everything that isn't on the internet and in three books is 'undocumented' :)

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Re: Atlantikwall or Maginot bunker? (Stp. Anna)

Post by myt1prod » 24 Sep 2012 09:39

That's true, but for this small part of the Maginot Line It does seem to be that way... I've been searching a long time for any documentation (prefrebable books) on this specific part of the Maginot Line. Up till now I haven't find one, mostly it is mentioned as being a 'to little to be of interest'...
Perhaps french literature provides more info, but this far I couldn't find such a french book...

So, if someone can point out a well documented book/site which handles this part af the Maginot Line, Please Do!!

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Re: Atlantikwall or Maginot bunker? (Stp. Anna)

Post by AvB » 24 Sep 2012 10:46

Go to an archive! Most of it is documented and together with your fieldwork you can make assumptions.

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Re: Atlantikwall or Maginot bunker? (Stp. Anna)

Post by Heim62 » 24 Sep 2012 16:47

Hello Jean,
get the great book from Julien Depret: "Le Nord, Frontière militaire, Tome 2". (288 pages, 2005) Everything is explained about the french defences.
The first map in the annexe at the end of book shows the dunes du perroquet, a part of the Flanders fortified sector (S.F. Flandres in french) with its WWI and WWII bunkers. The author says it's uncomplete but it helps a lot for who wants to make research in this area.

RV

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Re: Atlantikwall or Maginot bunker? (Stp. Anna)

Post by myt1prod » 24 Sep 2012 18:09

Thanks RV

Great tip! I'll see if I can find or order this book, if not I should be able to find it in a local bookshop in Dunkirk I hope. Although uncomplete, every bit of information is welcome!

Thx again
jean

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Re: Atlantikwall or Maginot bunker? (Stp. Anna)

Post by myt1prod » 03 Oct 2012 13:41

I got into contact with the local historian society (heemkundigekring) of Bray-dunes, who've already did a study on this area. According to them all bunkers in the area which have a nametag and the ones which resemble these bunkers date back to WW1. Some were adapted during the construction of the MaginotLine (39 - 40). (this also applies for the French constructions in Ghyvelde). This would mean only view constructions in the area are actually ML.

We will meet up soon hoping they can provide me with more specifics on the few ML-constructions and the constructions which remain a mystery to me (e.g. the 'MG-flanking-bunkers'). Possibly they could also provide me with accurate and original information on the region... I do hope so.

Based on this 'new information' (a second opinion/source who can confirm this would be welcome) I've adapted my map of the region:
Les dunes du perroquet - english.jpg
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