A future Belgian Air Force 1941

[phylo_roadking]

I had assumed the radiators to be housed in the air scoop below the fuselage. Can you tell me if the Renard company was trying to use evapouration type rads? Since the wing root fillets are the radiators then I can see no through airflow and unless we have evap. type radiators - which RR tried and abandoned - I can't see how they would work. That would certainly place the weight of the 1,440 lbs weight (both Merlin 11 and 111 came in at that) relatively further forward and contribute to stability. This would give a similar position to the Spitfire.

The sub-fuselage installation does indeed look more like a radiator, we need to find a source of far more detail so we can say definitively what it is - rad or oil cooler I presume the similar installation on the R-36 is for the same thing...there seems to be slightly more data around on THAT...

Although looking round again - some of the R-38 pics seem to show the front of that inboard wing "fillet" filled in...so I'm slowly changing my mind back again. However - only that fairing brings the leading edge fully forward - the majority of it is indeed still further rearwards than the Spitfire's.

Incidently - it's worth noting that crash investigators put the loss of the earlier R.36 down to one of TWO causes...neither of which had anything to do with its air manners or handling But it's fair to say the extra power of the Merlin II "made" the design, over the earlier Hispano and Gnome et Rhone-engined attempts

[phylo_roadking]

Sandy, the one detailed book/profile available on the types/family seems to be THIS - http://www.aerostories.org/~aerobiblio/article3022.html

..but scope out the cover illustration! The R.36 in flight, by the excellent French artist and illustrator Romain Hugault.







Spot the two intakes in the wing roots However...by the R.38 -



...the wingroot intakes have gone, replaced by a little secodnary ventral intake But SABCA obviously thought there was nothing wrong with the overall design - the R.36 prototype flew over 70 satisfactory test hours before its crash - so just faired over the wingroot intake position.

[phylo_roadking]

Hmmm....it's an obscure comment courtesy of an excreble autotranslation, but...referring to changes made during the R.36's testing period -

Among them, there was particularly the replacement of the radiator glycol, under the fuselage aft of the wing, by a water radiator positioned vertically above the wing.

Fed air by the two inlets, perhaps???

[A McAuslan]

Hi Phylo,
Your research has been much more fruitful than mine. I am trying to attach a jpeg scan of the entry in War Planes of the Second World War which indludes a very similar, but I presume earlier since no cockades, illustration of the R38. According to it the rear fuselage was fabric covered. I accept a 'nice' looking plane but perhaps the Merlin was not the right fit and the R37's radial was the way to go (an early Fw 190)?
Cheers,
Sandy McAuslan

Renard38.jpg

[phylo_roadking]

According to it the rear fuselage was fabric covered.

Yes, been doing some more searching myself - fabric covered indeed - but the tubework/bracing of rear airframe was dural, as opposed to the Hurricane's three-tube "inner" supporting wooden "formers.

I accept a 'nice' looking plane but perhaps the Merlin was not the right fit and the R37's radial was the way to go (an early Fw 190)?

If anything - given the previously-illustrated engine cradle supporting the R.36's Hispano....an in-line engine was the way to go. There might have been some concerns over whether Gnome et Rhone could have supplied the 14N radial in quantity - and whether by the time the ultimate pre-war 14R was ready for series production would it have been as competitive as equivalent Merlins? I know it's only Wiki, but this says no - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnome-Rh%C3%B4ne

The 14N-series was itself replaced by the ultimate pre-war evolution of the line, the Gnome-Rhône 14R. The first versions introduced in 1939, the 14R-4/5, produced 1,291 hp (950 kW) for takeoff and was only slightly heavier than the 14N. By 1940 the improved 14R-8/9 was delivering 1,578 hp (1,161 kW) by increasing RPM from 2,400 to 2,600. Although this was a good figure for the era, British and German design had already passed this mark, and would soon be pressing on 2,000 hp (1,500 kW).

Also, that amount of extra power could mean a considerable redesign of the basic R. airframe for new balance factors, stress factors etc. Time-consuming...

[A McAuslan]

Hi Phylo,
I agree that the Merlin developed into a superb engine. It is my candidate for the single item of military equipment which made the greatest contribution to the Allied victory in WW2. The only reason I hoisted that kite of the G&R was that it had a higher power output than the contemporaneous Merlin. I would never argue that the Hurricane was cutting edge technology but the wooden components were not structural. See attached jpeg.
Cheers,
Sandy McAuslan

[phylo_roadking]

I would never argue that the Hurricane was cutting edge technology but the wooden components were not structural. See attached jpeg.

O not structural...but still very necessary - and a lot of it!




If that forming...plus the tubing..was aluminium alloy on the R. series...

[Juha Tompuri]

Don't forget, that isn't a blending fillet there in the R-38's wingroot - that's its radiators!

Don't remember seeing any such.

Most probably even the ones of R-36 being (far) too small for the purpose.

Regards, Juha

[phylo_roadking]

Don't forget, that isn't a blending fillet there in the R-38's wingroot - that's its radiators!

Don't remember seeing any such.

The thread has moved on from there somewhat...http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1751922 and after.

[Juha Tompuri]

The thread has moved on from there somewhat...http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1751922 and after.

Yep, the claimed wing root radiators seem not to have been based on any facts.

Regards, Juha

[Juha Tompuri]

That said probably the fighter pilots who would have been looking forward most to their new aircraft would have been the poor unfortunates who had to fly the Buffalo. At least the CR 42 was manouverable.

There exists a thread about the virtues & flaws of the Brewster Buffalo:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8938&hilit

I appreciate there would only be two months to assess the qualities of the Buffalo as against the Hurricane. I would assume this would have been enough to see it rejected.

About British ex-Belgian Buffalo flight testing and Buffalo vs. Hurricane:
http://www.warbirdforum.com/eagle.htm

Regards, Juha

[Juha Tompuri]

pot the two intakes in the wing roots However...by the R.38 -
the wingroot intakes have gone, replaced by a little secodnary ventral intake

Actually the "little secodnary ventral intake" has been there at R.36 already

I had assumed the radiators to be housed in the air scoop below the fuselage. Can you tell me if the Renard company was trying to use evapouration type rads? Since the wing root fillets are the radiators then I can see no through airflow and unless we have evap. type radiators - which RR tried and abandoned - I can't see how they would work.

The sub-fuselage installation does indeed look more like a radiator, we need to find a source of far more detail so we can say definitively what it is - rad or oil cooler I presume the similar installation on the R-36 is for the same thing...there seems to be slightly more data around on THAT

the claimed wing root radiators seem not to have been based on any facts.

Renard R.36 (initial) cooling system
http://www.fnar.be/?Archives%26nbsp%3B% ... %26nbsp%3B