Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

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steverodgers801
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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by steverodgers801 » 15 Feb 2013 00:54

As far a s I know the Soviets unlike the west or the Germans never developed good armoured cars for infantry. They may have had ones from lend lease. So while the support units and equipment types would be different between motorized and mech there was not a real difference in them except what their assignment was. Mech would be support, motorized would be for follow up.

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by ATH » 15 Feb 2013 06:42

Mech would be support, motorized would be for follow up.
Plenty of times mech or motorized infantry were used as frontline infantry. Motorized infantry is mobile infantry. Mech infantry is motorized infantry in an infantry heavy (not heavy infantry) armored unit...

A mechanized corps is composed of motorized (inf) battalions supplemented by armor.
A tank corps is tank battalions supplemented by motorized infantry...

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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 15 Feb 2013 08:48

steverodgers801 wrote:As far as I know the Soviets unlike the west or the Germans never developed good armoured cars for infantry. They may have had ones from lend lease. So while the support units and equipment types would be different between motorized and mech there was not a real difference in them except what their assignment was. Mech would be support, motorized would be for follow up.
The ones from Lend Lease such as the White Scout Car usually went to the Recon units. When my table refers to "Armoured Trucks" in 1942 it would have been Universal Carriers and in 1944 it would have refered to the White Scout Car. But before we get too excited here, the number of Whites etc was tiny:

Universal Carrier 2560 (incl. 1348 from Canada)

M15A1 MGMC 100
M17 MGMC 1000
T48 {Soviet name SU-57} 650 (from Britain)
M2 halftrack 342
M3 halftrack 2
M5 halftrack 421
M9 halftrack 413
T16 96
M3A1 Scout 3340
LVT 5
http://wio.ru/tank/ll.htm

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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 15 Feb 2013 09:50

But this should not been seen as a criticism of the Soviet Union.

As outlined by David Edgerton in "Britain at War", Britain saw itself as fighting a war of machines - an economic war and even when she planned to raise a 'mass' army of 55 divisions, this would be equipped with a lot of mechanised material. Her war was seen as being the Navy blockading, the RAF bombing and the Army wearing down the enemy around the periphery. To a large extent the US view was similar and when she raised her Army she equipped it to such a high level that she was able to field only 89 Divisions. Neither saw themselves having to fight against Germany on their own in continental Europe and so had no need of 'mass mechanised armies' that might have stretched even the combined wealth of these two nations.

On the other hand both Germany and Russia saw themselves as fighting a war of mass armies on continental Europe. Their priority was numbers and neither had the economic strength to equip their armies with masses of machines to equip those armies. Both were dependent on the railway and the horse for the bulk of their transport. Germany would field about 30 motorised divisions for Barbarossa in 1941 but also 140 Infantry Divisions, supported mainly by rail and the horse. Similarly in 1944 Soviet Russia fielded around 40 motorised divisions and around 250 similar sized Rifle Divisons (450 RD). Both achieved in the order of 15-20% of their army as some sort of armoured/motorised force. The choices they made with regard to the make up of this striking force reflect their different approaches. The Soviet Union went for the economic approach of basic tanks, tractors and trucks while the Reich went for a small high quality military force approach with tanks, half tracks, weapon carriers, cars, motorcycles and trucks. Whether a simpler approach might have given them a better result is a discussion for a different thread!

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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 19 Oct 2013 06:14

What type of trucks were used in the Mech Corps Rifle Battalions?

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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 03 Feb 2017 22:48

The original copy of the shtat is here:
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=262170416

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Art » 28 Aug 2017 17:14

Authorized composition of the mechanized brigade (010/420, august 1943):

1) Brigade HQ:
- command - 5 men
- staff - 16 men
- chiefs of services - 4
- political section - 5
- technical section - 4
- supply (quartermaster) section - 7
- ordnance section - 4
- commandant platoon - 24
- transport section - 11
Total 80 men

2) 3 rifle battalions, each:
- HQ - 41 men
- 3 rifle companies, each 123 men
- machine gun company - 56
- anti-tank rifle company - 45
- submachinegun platoon - 30
- anti-tank battery - 31
- mortar battery - 41
- supply platoon - 29
- medical aid station - 6
Total 649 men

3) Mortar battalion:
- HQ - 10 men
- Signal platoon - 14
- 82-mm mortar company - 44
- 82-mm mortar company - 44
- 120-mm mortar company - 53
- medical aid station - 3
- ordnance workshop - 5
- transport platoon - 24
total 197 men

4) Artillery battalion - 214
5) Anti-tank rifle company - 69
6) submachinegun company - 94
7) Recon company - 141
6) Technical service company - 73
7) Engineer company - 121
8) Truck company - 109
9) Medical platoon - 32
10) Anti-aircraft machine gun company - 48
11) Tank regiment - 486 (calculated using totals)

Total in brigade - 3683 men.

Worth to note that tables in "Red Army handbook omit the truck company altogether, yet it was present both in 010/270 and 010/420 TO&Es. The rest corresponds more or less to RAH tables.

From:
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=132354526

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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 29 Aug 2017 13:15

This would be the version of 010/420 using the Tank Regt 010/414 although the totals are slightly different to those of the Jan 1943 amendment eg. Tank Regt numbers 474 men. Brigade total 3686.

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Art » 29 Aug 2017 19:26

Units other than the tank regiment have the same personnel strength as in the RAH table for 010/420. I suppose there were minor changes in tables of organization over time, hence somewhat different figures.

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Gary Kennedy » 29 Aug 2017 20:40

I was able to get hold of some schemes/wire diagrams including those for the later Mech Bdes. I'll hijack Art's basis to reduce the typing burden;

1) Brigade HQ:
- command - 5 men
- staff - 16 men
- chiefs of services - 4
- political section - 5
- technical section - 4
- supply (quartermaster) section - 7
- ordnance section - 4
- commandant platoon - 24
- transport section - 11

2) 3 rifle battalions, each:
- HQ - 41 men (Staff 19 + Sigs 22)
- 3 rifle companies, each 123 men (3x Rifle Pls, each 34, MG Pl 12, balance for Coy HQ 9)
- machine gun company - 56 (3x MG Pls, each 18, balance for Coy HQ 2)
- anti-tank rifle company - 45 (scheme says 46, 2x Atk R Pls, each 22, balance for Coy HQ 2)
- submachinegun platoon - 30 (no Squad org given)
- anti-tank battery - 31 (scheme says 32, 2x Atk gun Pls, each 15, balance for Coy HQ 2)
- mortar battery - 41 (scheme says 42, 2x 82-mm Pls, each 18, Coy HQ shown as 6)
- supply platoon - 29 (same)
- medical aid station - 6 (same)
Total 649 men (scheme says 651)

3) Mortar battalion:
- HQ - 10 men (scheme says 18)
- Signal platoon - 14 (same)
- 82-mm mortar company - 44 (scheme says 46, no subunit strengths shown)
- 82-mm mortar company - 44 (as above)
- 120-mm mortar company - 53 (scheme says 55, no sub-units shown)
- medical aid station - 3 (scheme says 5)
- ordnance workshop - 5 (same)
- transport platoon - 24 (same)
total 197 men (scheme gives 201)

4) Artillery battalion - 214 (scheme says 220; Bn HQ 13, HQ Pl 23, Med Det 6, Admin 13, Ammn Pl (?) 10. Three Btys, each 52, no other detail)
5) Anti-tank rifle company - 69 (3x Atk R Pls, each 22, balance for Coy HQ 3)
6) submachinegun company - 94 (3x Pls, each 28, Admin Squad 5, balance for Coy HQ 5)
7) Recon company - 141 (I'll have to dig out a translation I bodged for it)
6) Technical service company - 73 (scheme says 72; repair (wheeled vehs) 15, assembly (?) 9, Arty/ wpns repair 8, MT Pl 29, Admin 6)
7) Engineer company - 121 (scheme says 120, 3x Pls each 26 + Pl of 23, leaves HQ elements total 19)
8) Truck company - 109 (4x Pls each 24 + Admin (?) 10, leaves Coy HQ 3)
9) Medical platoon - 32 (same)
10) Anti-aircraft machine gun company - 48
11) Tank regiment - 486 (different source, was 524, then amended to 474). Needs a bit of work to go into more detail.

Gary

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Art » 29 Aug 2017 21:12

Gary Kennedy wrote: 4) Artillery battalion - 214 (scheme says 220; Bn HQ 13, HQ Pl 23, Med Det 6, Admin 13, Ammn Pl (?) 10. Three Btys, each 52, no other detail)
Here is a report on authorized/actual strength of the artillery battalion/52 Gu.Rifle Brigade, August 1943:
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=130222654
From which we have TO&E numbers:
24 officers
69 NCOs
121 privates
Total 214 men
12 76-mm guns
109 rifles/carbines
60 SMGs
26 pistols
1 car
7 1.5-ton trucks
16 3-ton trucks
2 special purpose automobiles
23 telephones
8 radios etc

Again, it seems obvious that there were some minor changes and variants.

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Gary Kennedy » 30 Aug 2017 00:18

Seems I hadn't done a rough translation for the Recce Coy before...

7) Recon company - 141 (Lt Armd Car Pl 15 with 5 cars, 2x APC Pls, each with 30 and 5 APCs, SMG Pl 41, Admin 9, HQ Squad 9, balance for Coy HQ 7)

And I forgot the AA Coy.

10) Anti-aircraft machine gun company - 48 (3x Pls each 15, leaves 3 Coy HQ)

Gary

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 30 Aug 2017 13:04

010/420:
Issued Sept 1942 (using Tank Regt 010/292)
Amended Jan 1943 (when order for creation of 10 Tank Armies was issued) (using Tank Regt 010/414)
Amended August 1943 (using Tank Regt 010/414
[Those original Mech Bde which started with 010/292 often retained this organisation until at latest March 1944 when they switched Tank Regts to 010/507]
[Tank Regt 010/414 started with 524 but quickly by Jan 1943 switched to 474 men and then by Feb 1944 to 401 men when the T-70s were dropped from establishment]

The totals for the January version are given by Gary above which relates to totals (010/420, 010/ and 010/414):
Officers 384
NCO 1210
Men 3686
T-34 32
T-70 7
BA-64 10
Motorcycle 10
Tractors 2
76mm gun 12
45mm AT 12
120mm mortar 6
82mm mortar 30
Heavy MG 45
Light MG 112
AA MG 9
ATR 99
SMG 1299
Rifles 1520
Cars 8
Cargo Lorry (ZIS-5 or GAZ-AA) 326
Special vehicles 31
Total motor vehicles 365

no mention of APCs in this list

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Art » 30 Aug 2017 15:11

Der Alte Fritz wrote:010/420:
Issued Sept 1942 (using Tank Regt 010/292)
Amended Jan 1943 (when order for creation of 10 Tank Armies was issued) (using Tank Regt 010/414)
Seems to be a confusion here. 010/420 was introduced in February 1943 to replace the earlier establishment 010/370 from April 1942. Both actually stood for both motor rifle and mechanized brigade, the only difference being a presence of the tank regiment in the latter. First mechanized brigades were formed in September 42 by adding a newly created tank regiment to already existing motor rifle brigade organization.

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Re: Mechanised Brigade shtat 10/420-432 1943

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 30 Aug 2017 19:30

Art you are correct missed out the earlier shtat- chronology from RAH and Tankfront.ru:

Sept 1942..............................Mech Corps with Bde 010/320............Tank Regt 010/292
Amended Jan 1943................... 010/320.....................................Tank Regt 010/414 (524 men)
Feb 1943 ..............................Mech Corps with Bde 010/420............Tank Regt 010/414 (471 men)(and 010/292 in older Bdes)
Numbers amended August 1943 ...Bde 010/420 ................................Tank Regt 010/414
Amended February 1944............Bde 010/420.................................Tank Regt 010/414 (401 men)
April 1944.............................Bde 010/420.................................Tank Regts 010/292 converted to 010/507

from Tankfront.ru:
By the directive of the General Staff of the Red Army No. Орг / 3/2305 of 04.03.1944 all the tank regiments of the state №010 / 292 (with the T-70 company) were transferred to the new states [State No. 010/507] by April 1 , according to which they Totaled 21 to 35 T-34s.

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