Nuremberg Party Rally Grounds

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Geoff Walden
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Re: Nuremberg Party Rally Grounds

#181

Post by Geoff Walden » 25 May 2013, 09:00

It's facing the opposite direction, so it was moved from the location in the previous photos.

That was quite a feat! It's very difficult, unless you have a couple of large cranes, to move a hulk like that, with a much damaged suspension, that would probably move only with difficulty (if at all) on its own suspension components.

There must be a story about this tank, out there somewhere!

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Re: Nuremberg Party Rally Grounds

#182

Post by J. Duncan » 25 May 2013, 09:30

There might be a lead to answers in this story (see link below)...maybe investigate this guy Fenberg (or author John Q. Barret - perhaps there was more than one tank and they were practicing their demolitions?). This tank story is really a mystery. I can't find any articles on "combat on Nuremberg Rally grounds". Paulhead made a good observation - swastika missing in Redstar's photo but present in the other photos.

Link to story of Fenberg...his team blew up the swastika emblem on top of the grandstand:

http://www.stjohns.edu/media/3/b218e321 ... 3a888a.pdf

Fenberg story by nephew (video clip)...Fenberg was a cameraman:

http://thewar.coe.uh.edu/explore/story.cfm?storyid=59

Battle for Nuremberg only took only 5 days (April 17-April 22 - parades from April 20 - 22, the swastika blow-up April 22) and the Americans held 3 parades on the Zepplin field Rally grounds. Those tanks may have been duds or broken down from their parades. I have read accounts of the battle (personal and historical) and these make no mention of battles on the Rally grounds themselves. Only 150 servicemen were killed during these skirmishes for the city...much of the damage done to the city was from airstrikes.

In short news documentary from the time, Nuremberg Zepplin field (in quick panaoramic view) shows no broken down tanks on field after the Americans took it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9UkXUfNgJs

Video bottom shows great color footage of Nuremberg grandstand inspected by US airmen (they poke through the metal debris of blown-up swastika)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyBWAQzJpw4


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Max
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Re: Nuremberg Party Rally Grounds

#183

Post by Max » 25 May 2013, 11:00

Greetings from the Wide Brown.

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Re: Nuremberg Party Rally Grounds

#184

Post by Max » 25 May 2013, 11:06

Image
http://www.network54.com/Forum/47208/th ... M4a1+build...
..
zeppelin field tank.jpg
zeppelin field tank.jpg (76.2 KiB) Viewed 1864 times
This is the image from the site but flipped to show correct angle
It seems that the tank was moved to make room for a parade of US troops
The swastika was covered by the US flag and later demolished
Greetings from the Wide Brown.

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Re: Nuremberg Party Rally Grounds

#185

Post by Paulheald » 25 May 2013, 11:57

This is the first pic I have seen showing the "port" side of the tank. However, the pic is very fuzzy so it is not possible to ascertain if there was any projectile damage on that side. As Geoff says it would probably need heavy lift equipment to have moved the tank. It's just a thought - but could they have used another Sherman tank to literally drag the hulk from one side of the area to the other? I will have to ask the "tankers" if the latter was possible?

Geoff, whilst on the subject of the Zeppelintribune, you said you were fortunate enough to have done a special tour of the interior. Did the tour include being able to access the roof where the Hakenkreutz symbol once stood?

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Re: Nuremberg Party Rally Grounds

#186

Post by J. Duncan » 25 May 2013, 12:28

If one of the tank treads is still on and movable, is it possible to spin the tank around?
The earth in front of the tank in photo above shows evidence of this?

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Re: Nuremberg Party Rally Grounds

#187

Post by Geoff Walden » 25 May 2013, 17:39

It is possible to just drag a tank along the ground like that, but when the suspension is heavily damaged like that, it usually tears up a lot of components. I would have thought that dragging that hulk on its own tracks would have caused at least the most damaged track to come apart ... but maybe not.

Maybe we can get our answers from the Missing Lynx site. I have posted on there before, but in the general armor section, not in the modelers' section, where this thread appears to be.

@ Paulheald - No, we didn't go up on the roof - I'm sure they would consider that too dangerous. We only went through the inside of the main part of the grandstand.

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Re: Nuremberg Party Rally Grounds

#188

Post by Dwight Pruitt » 26 May 2013, 04:39

I'm interested in how the field expedient racks for sandbags were torn off.

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Re: Nuremberg Party Rally Grounds

#189

Post by J. Duncan » 26 May 2013, 10:46

This book by Peter Heigl probably has some answers / clues. I am going to ask jeffhan (an AHF poster) about it...I think he has the book. see link below:

http://www.amazon.com/Nuremberg-Hitlers ... 809&sr=1-5

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Re: Nuremberg Party Rally Grounds

#190

Post by J. Duncan » 26 May 2013, 11:08

I tried to find some more information from LIFE magazine (see photo) from the May 14, 1945 issue. It has a great cover photo from top of Zeppelin grandstand captioned "Victorious Yank" but sadly no other photos within that might have clues.
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Re: Nuremberg Party Rally Grounds

#191

Post by Larrister » 26 May 2013, 11:29

Is this the same Sherman with photo taken from the same side? There's no Zepplin stadium showing in the background.
Photo found here: https://www.facebook.com/photorecon101abn

Larry
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Re: Nuremberg Party Rally Grounds

#192

Post by J. Duncan » 26 May 2013, 11:45

It very well could be (taken from grandstand angle, now pointed in opposite direction)...below is the kindle book version of Heigl's book. If you click on "beginning" in the "look inside" feature you will scroll to a chapter titled "Battle for Nuremberg" (click on it) - or just scroll down after hitting the "look inside"...it has a photo of a dead german soldier (a paratrooper or volkstürm?) with the tank in the background. amazing photo. The soldier could have been a lone volkstürmer with a panzerfaust who managed to take out the tank but was cut down. I guess there were some minor skirmishes on the parade grounds. Photo proves the tank was blasted and the tank's barrel is aimed in the soldier's direction. I guess the mystery of how the tank originally got there is now explained.
What is not explained is how the tank's position was reversed later on (after the swastika had been blown apart) in the photo at bottom of previous thread page. weird.

http://www.amazon.com/Nuremberg-Hitler% ... B005HRT55M

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Re: Nuremberg Party Rally Grounds

#193

Post by Paulheald » 26 May 2013, 15:30

Hello Duncan, That was my first supposition and posted as such a couple of pages back. In that the Sherman was possibly stonked by a lone ranger with a Panzerfaust. Therafter the US forces heaved the hulk around the area for photographic purposes and to avoid the explosion that destroyed the Harkenkreutz symbol. You have certainly done a very thorough research job on the mystery tank. It looks like exploration into this mystery was to be going to go on for ever. :D

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Re: Nuremberg Party Rally Grounds

#194

Post by Max » 26 May 2013, 16:18

Zeppelin Field.jpg
Zeppelin Field.jpg (91.55 KiB) Viewed 1729 times
Killed German soldier, Zeppelin Field of the Rally Grounds, April 17th, 1945.
http://www.amazon.com/Nuremberg-Hitler% ... B005HRT55M


The tank is nowhere near the tribune in this shot and because the body is still on the ground you might expect that this is an early shot and that the tank was latter moved to near the tribune.
Of course the nearness to the tribune might be an artefact of the foreshortening of a very long lens.
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Re: Nuremberg Party Rally Grounds

#195

Post by Geoff Walden » 26 May 2013, 18:24

Thanks for posting that pic, Larry! We now have pretty much all-around shots, and some of them might show some holes, but unfortunately none of them are really clear. There might be a hole in the rear, but I'm no sort of Sherman expert, and this might just be a part of the tank.

Duncan, I had not thought to look in the Heigl book, and I had forgotten those photos - thanks! That book also has that photo I mentioned earlier, of a GI taking the wreathed swastika off the top of one of the flagpoles that were on the "towers" around the Zeppelinfeld.

I think the photos of dead German soldiers at both the Zeppelinfeld and Luitpold Arena show that there was fighting at the Rally Grounds, but we don't know if this Sherman tank was involved in that or not. Maybe this fighting was not reported in detail by US forces - there was fighting in the Schweinfurt area in early April, that was barely mentioned or not mentioned at all in US unit records. Or maybe we just haven't found what we're looking for yet. I would think that the loss of a tank in combat would have been reported by the owning unit.

Here is my take of where this tank was located, before and after it was moved.

Geoff
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