Nuremberg Party Rally Grounds

[Mannheim]

I was just rereading Tony Le Tissier's excellent "Third Reich: Then and Now" and read on page 174 that a series of underground tram lines were built at the rally grounds in 1938. Anybody know anything about this? Are there any traces? Geoff?

[Geoff Walden]

Well, I hadn't noticed that in that book before, and I have not heard of this myself. The area he gives is not really at the Party Rally Grounds - off to the side, in the area of the SS Kaserne. I wonder what his source was ... I have a 1941 listing of all the Nürnberg Strassenbahn lines, and also a map that shows the Strassenbahn lines to the RPT area, and they don't list or show anything about this. Neither do guides to the Party Rallies and a book that discusses the Party Rally Grounds infrastructure. So, for me, it's a blank.

[Geoff Walden]

I stand corrected. Part of the Strassenbahn WAS put underground in 1938. Thanks for letting me learn something new, Gary! Forgive me if this gets long-winded - I did a lot of research on Google Maps today.

It wasn't where stated in the ATB book. According to the book Geländebegehung by Alexander Schmidt (2002, page 204), the underground lines ran along Allersberger-, Franken-, and Bayernstrasse. This matches the map posted here, which is from a Party Rally Day guide pamphlet probably dating to 1938.

The modern Strassenbahn Line 8 stops here, at Tristanstrasse -
https://www.google.com/maps/place/49%C2 ... !1s0x0:0x0

But if you follow on to the southeast on Google Maps, you can see that the lines continue on until they go underground right here (but this part of the line is not used today) -
https://www.google.com/maps/place/49%C2 ... !1s0x0:0x0

The tracks (unused) come out again here, and continue east for 150-200 meters, to a turnaround. This part of the track and this turnaround are shown on the period map - definitely part of the works for the Party Rally Grounds -
https://www.google.com/maps/place/49%C2 ... !1s0x0:0x0

The period map shows Line 9 turning south from here and continuing along Allersbergerstrasse (today's Münchener Str.), until it turned along the south side of the Deutsche Stadion site. I can see what looks like this line, starting at the turnaround just north of Frankenstr., and MAYBE going underground beneath Frankenstr. just to the west of the intersection with Münchener Str. (there is a white structure there).

From there, I can't see where any tram line comes out aboveground again. But there are a lot of trees all along there, and also several used and unused industrial rail lines in that area. Any trace of the line going around the Stadion site would have been erased when they built the Messe in the late 1990s (or so). But the underground line and turnaround loop running along Frankenstr. between Allersbergerstr. and Münchener Str. is certainly a remnant of this Party Rally infrastructure work.

[ManfredV]

The tracks went underground in southern direction parallel to "Münchener Str" (B 8 ) and came out some hundred meters later. Parts of this tunnel still exists today but is not more used and filled with pipes.There were no tunnels directly into Reichsparteitagsgelände. The underground lines were built because tramway and marching men shouldn't block each other the way.
After war before Nuremberg underground railway was built, this tunnel was used for tramway line 1. Line 18 came through tunnel under Frankenstraße but was abandoned in 70s. Later for several years the turnaround was terminal stop of line 7, but since the tunnel became runious line 7 was given up and now line 8 ends at Tristanstr. and the trains used the turnaround without passengers. Here some pics and information:
http://eisenbahntunnel-portal.de/lb/inh ... h5001.html
http://nahverkehr-nuernberg.npage.de/tr ... unnel.html (this is not up to date, but gives many informations)

[Geoff Walden]

Thanks for the info and links - very interesting!

[Mannheim]

I don't suppose there are any Nazi gold trams in those old tunnels?

[ManfredV]

Well, in old Frankenstraße tunnel some veteran tramways are stored. Who knows?

[ManfredV]

A little bit of tramway history there:
- Around 1900 areas south of Dutzendteich / Frankenstraße became parts of Nuremberg urban district and were covered up. Industrial zones, cargo stations and a large marshalling yard and a new quarter "Rangierbahnhof-Siedlung" (railway employes housings) were built. 1912 Zoo opened. Parts of Dutzendteich surroundings stayed recreation area. A tramway line was opened. In 1920s Stadium and a swimming bath were built . "Stadion" was terminal station. This line can be seen on the old map.
- 1933 Nazis started rallies and 1938 these three tunnels were built.
- During war tramway tracks were damaged and traffic broke down. Frankenstraße tunnel got one single bomb hit, but nothing more happened to the tunnels.
- After 1945 the line was reconstructed but ended at "Bauernfeindstraße" (Rangierbahnhofsiedlung). Further tracks to "Stadion" were given up, because the weren't needed anymore. There were no Rallies any more and the stadium could be better reached from Dutzendteich station (15 min walk).
- Since the 50s new quarters were built in Langwasser (former camp area for Rallies), Neuselsbrunn and Märzfeld. Bus lines were opened.
- in the 50s/60s Nuremberg decided to built an underground system. First line was constructed since the 60s and started in Langwasser. At that time last remains of old stadion line disappeared.
- 1972 line 18 trough Frankenstraße tunnel was closed because new underground construction works reached the area. 1978 when underground reached centre the line from Bayernstraße to Bauernfeindstr. together with southern tunnel was closed
- Since 2011 tramway ends at Tristanstr and the tunnel is only used for reaching the turnaround, in Frankenstraße tunnel some historic tramways are stored
In future: tunnels become more and more ruinous. Only little maintenance is done because Bayernstraße turnaround is still in use. A new line from Tristanstraße to Bauernfeindstraße and maybe to Neuselsbrunn and Langwasser is projected but not decided yet. If it comes, it will be above ground and tunnels will be filled up.

[munkitkat]

Awesome picture update Geoff, i was going over my images and noticed that it is already 2 years ago that i was here for the last time. I see that i have missed out on some great restorations. Those screws are h u g e , never seen those before. Thanks for the update.

[Geoff Walden]

Work continues on the testing of various plans for preservation of the Zeppelintribuehne. Now, the eastern side wing and part of the adjacent corner have been covered with a solid test cover mounted just over the original surface, with wire mesh beneath that will allow air circulation. Next to this is another test area that has a higher canopy cover (this is the type of protection that I have read was the main plan). Some sort of ventilation machinery could be heard running in the area beneath this canopy cover (all the plans state that the necessary first step is to dry out the interior of the structure).

An announcement is supposed to made this summer, of the estimate of the total cost to protect this structure from further deterioration.

[ghostsoldier]

It's about darned time.

Rob

[Geoff Walden]

Something you don't see everyday at the Kongresshalle ... well, OK, probably NEVER seen there before.

Caution - the photo at this link might not be suitable for all viewers, or for viewing at work.

http://www.nordbayern.de/region/nuernbe ... -1.5425333

[Geoff Walden]

http://www.nordbayern.de/region/nuernbe ... -1.5767721

Many visitors explore Party Rally Grounds without a guide

24 January 2017

237,170 people visited the Nuremberg Zeppelinfeld in 2015.

NUREMBERG - Surprisingly many visitors explore the former Party Rally Grounds on their own - without a guided tour. This is the result of a new study. The survey provided further surprising insights.

In 2015, exactly 237,170 interested people were taking part in guided tours and lectures on the Zeppelin Tribune, Congress Hall and Zeppelinfeld. This is evident from the figures of the providers. But how many guests, apart from that, make their own visit has not yet been explored.

The Chair of Didactics of History at the University of Erlangen-Nuremberg commissioned the City Council to collect data on three days, during which no football matches, auto races or other events took place.

The study staff included nearly 17,000 people and interviewed 663 women and men.

About 40 percent of respondents came from the Greater Nuremberg area, another 40 percent from the rest of Germany. 20 per cent came from abroad, from a total of 28 countries: Americans were the most strongly represented before the British and Austrians, but the interviewers also came across people from South Korea, Mexico and Vietnam.

In total, the interviewees named two reasons for their visit: around 48 per cent emphasized their historical interest, 39 per cent spoke of the leisure factor. The latter group came mainly from Nuremberg and the surrounding area.

One of the results of the study was particularly impressive to Nuremberg's Cultural Adviser Julia Lehner: More than 70 per cent had said that the visit of the Rally Grounds area had brought them additional insights. They explored the area, independently of a visit to the Documentation Center, with an independent, high level of knowledge.

In the fierce discussion about the future of the Nazi relics, this argument could have a weight. Many citizens had been indignant about the fact that 73 million euros were to be spent solely on the maintenance of the ruins on the Dutzendteich lake.

The 663 respondents expressed quite differently how the structural remains affect them: 83 percent rated them as "impressive", around 64 percent as "typical Nazi buildings" or as buildings from dictatorships. Nearly 60 percent of them felt the ruins to be "much larger than expected", while 12 percent had the opposite impression. 44 percent called the architecture "quite nice", 36 percent "threatening" and 25 percent "ugly". Multiple responses were possible.

(slightly edited from the Google Translate results)

[reichpilot]

I am glad to see this is being cleaned up and is being preserved. I am a little worried about the landslide in some pictures on the previous page. Thanks for posting all these great pictures!

Don

[Cor]

I found this photo on the internet. Is this the luitpoldold arena. Maybe posted before but never seen before. Interesting and fascinating angle.