Hello,
what were the most widely worn uniforms worn by the Polish forces at the start of the Polish-Soviet war ?
German Polnische Wehrmacht grey, French uniforms , Russian or allied khaki surplus ?
Ranjit.
Polish uniforms 1919-21 ?
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dont tell them pike
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- Joined: 04 Nov 2008, 11:28
Polish uniforms 1919-21 ?
Don't tell him pike !
Re: Polish uniforms 1919-21 ?
Clearly it is impossible to say which type it was possible. For many years, Polish forums take on this discussion.
During this period, the Polish Army was in use many types of uniforms - the uniforms left over from invading armies where Poles had served during the Great War, their production, eg in the armies of Wielkopolska, French, British, American, to put just a typical Polish uniform pattern . 19th
To a large extent it depends on how descended unit - unit Haller's army had arrived from France French uniforms, body, derived from Greater German and sewn, the units derived from the annexation of Austria - Austrian uniforms.
Tomasz
During this period, the Polish Army was in use many types of uniforms - the uniforms left over from invading armies where Poles had served during the Great War, their production, eg in the armies of Wielkopolska, French, British, American, to put just a typical Polish uniform pattern . 19th
To a large extent it depends on how descended unit - unit Haller's army had arrived from France French uniforms, body, derived from Greater German and sewn, the units derived from the annexation of Austria - Austrian uniforms.
Tomasz
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T. Snorrason
- Member
- Posts: 23
- Joined: 30 May 2013, 03:00
Re: Polish uniforms 1919-21 ?
If you is interested in uniforms and pictures from the Russian Civil War, among those the uniforms of the Poles, you can go to
http://siberia-miniatures.ru/forum/show ... 12&tid=185
which is an index.
In that you can find stuff on the Poles too, for instance in
http://siberia-miniatures.ru/forum/show ... 12&tid=110
http://siberia-miniatures.ru/forum/show ... 12&tid=332
http://siberia-miniatures.ru/forum/show ... 12&tid=331
http://siberia-miniatures.ru/forum/show ... 12&tid=185
which is an index.
In that you can find stuff on the Poles too, for instance in
http://siberia-miniatures.ru/forum/show ... 12&tid=110
http://siberia-miniatures.ru/forum/show ... 12&tid=332
http://siberia-miniatures.ru/forum/show ... 12&tid=331
Re: Polish uniforms 1919-21 ?
Assuming that the interest relates to Field Uniforms worn at the start of that war, the standard form of these was established by the 1919 Uniform Regulations ( published 1920). Khaki overall with oxidised metal buttons, brown boots and leather accoutrements, this was to be the basic form for all arms and services within the Polish Army.
If you search under. PRZEPIS UBIORU POLOWEGO WOJSKA POLSKIEGO 1919 and access the entry under http://www.1920.fora.pl you will see the regulations which have, at the bottom of the page some original illustrations of this basic uniform.
The introduction of these regulations began to establish some regularity in both uniform and equipment to a situation which arose out of the inheritance by the army of captured stocks drawn from Austro-Hungarian, German and Russian supplies.
Prior to the introduction of these regulations, attempts had been made, to achieve some sort of local standardisation. Thus at regimental level units tended to be dressed according to the stocks they had inherited at the start of the 1919 campaign, ( Regiment A in khaki, regiment B in light grey). However depending on the availability of supply, the means to achieve supply through local tailoring and the availability of captured stocks, quite a large variance from this standard can be observed in photographs taken at the time.
By the start of the 1920 campaign, further stocks were beginning to flow into the country, from abroad. So even if standardisation of form was achieved, there was variance within it. Unit A may have been dressed in British 1902 tunics, B in American Service Dress, C in Polish 1919 Pattern SD and towards the end of the campaign in Japanese, Portugese, Bulgarian etc, each attempting to achieve some conformity to the regulations.
The Imperial German style uniforms tended to be worn by the forces in the west of Poland . French pattern uniforms, were , as far as possible confined to those units originating from France. ( But again not always).
As the campaign began the greatest variance was seen in the units at the front line, ( Dniestr and Dvina rivers) since they were furthest away from central supply. The units being raised in the core of Poland were starting to be uniformly supplied and showed a great conformity to the regulations. However as the Bolshevik counter-offensive drove deeper into Poland, the drive to raise new units to counter this threat and the loss of sources of supply by the withdrawing front line units, meant that the units used whatever they could as they could, and every permutation of uniform was possible.
There is no definitive answer that can be given to the question.
There are some interesting examples of the variances available.
If you type SYLWETKA ZOLNIERZA POLSKIEGO 1920 and access http://www.patria.fora you will see recreations of the different type of uniforms worn.
The first shows an officer ( appears to be a lieutenant) wearing a mixed bag of German tunic, regulation breeches and a pre 1919 cap.
The second set of photos is particularly interesting and reflective on my description of the situation. He is described as wearing an American blouse, Austro-Hungarian equipment, older style cap ( which actually was quite popular with the troops at that time) and a Berthier rifle.
In the third set he is wearing the same as in the second set, but now has the French pattern helmet ( derived from a number of sources not only France) and an Austrian pack.
The fourth repeats the previous two.
The fifth shows the American blouse etc, but worn with French equipment.
The sixth on the page shows the 1919 regulation Polish pattern uniform. The form of side cap shown was interchangeable with the square-topped ‘rogatywka’ type.
(the remainder show uniforms from 1939.)
If you access http://www.1920.org.pl , just below the heading you will see WOJNA POLSKO-BOLSZEWICKA and a sub-heading WOJSKO POLSKIE. Clicking on that will allow you to access a few original photos. ( Piechota-Infantry, Jazda-Cavalry, Artyleria-Artillery, Lacznosc-Signals).
Lastly, if you type REKONSTRUKCJA SYLWETKI WOJSKA POLSKIEGO 1920 and access the site http://www.radunin.hosit pl you will see yet another variant.
The figure is described as a Senior Private/Lance Corporal of the 10th Infantry Division. The tunic and trousers are American ( sold as surplus to the Poles in very large numbers), and have been modified locally to have a Polish pattern collar and Polish buttons. Austro-Hungarian leather equipment, pouches and entrenching tool, German pack, water-bottle and bayonet, and carries an 1989 Mauser.( If the tunic shown here is substituted for the 1919 Polish pattern given before and the cap is substituted for the square-topped one, then you get very close to the regulation pattern established and being introduced mainly towards the end of the campaign)
I hope that this gives you a general starting guide, to this otherwise complex issue. I am more than happy to try and answer any more specific questions you may have on the topic.
I must also apologise for not being able to provide you with the direct links to the sites. Unfortunately I am of an age where I still wonder that my keyboard doesn’t play music but makes words appear on the magic-lantern screen in front of me, and have a learning curve towards technology that can be rivalled by a plank of wood. I haven’t quite got to grips on how to do this but do hope to achieve this before the Sun eventually swallows the Earth.
If you search under. PRZEPIS UBIORU POLOWEGO WOJSKA POLSKIEGO 1919 and access the entry under http://www.1920.fora.pl you will see the regulations which have, at the bottom of the page some original illustrations of this basic uniform.
The introduction of these regulations began to establish some regularity in both uniform and equipment to a situation which arose out of the inheritance by the army of captured stocks drawn from Austro-Hungarian, German and Russian supplies.
Prior to the introduction of these regulations, attempts had been made, to achieve some sort of local standardisation. Thus at regimental level units tended to be dressed according to the stocks they had inherited at the start of the 1919 campaign, ( Regiment A in khaki, regiment B in light grey). However depending on the availability of supply, the means to achieve supply through local tailoring and the availability of captured stocks, quite a large variance from this standard can be observed in photographs taken at the time.
By the start of the 1920 campaign, further stocks were beginning to flow into the country, from abroad. So even if standardisation of form was achieved, there was variance within it. Unit A may have been dressed in British 1902 tunics, B in American Service Dress, C in Polish 1919 Pattern SD and towards the end of the campaign in Japanese, Portugese, Bulgarian etc, each attempting to achieve some conformity to the regulations.
The Imperial German style uniforms tended to be worn by the forces in the west of Poland . French pattern uniforms, were , as far as possible confined to those units originating from France. ( But again not always).
As the campaign began the greatest variance was seen in the units at the front line, ( Dniestr and Dvina rivers) since they were furthest away from central supply. The units being raised in the core of Poland were starting to be uniformly supplied and showed a great conformity to the regulations. However as the Bolshevik counter-offensive drove deeper into Poland, the drive to raise new units to counter this threat and the loss of sources of supply by the withdrawing front line units, meant that the units used whatever they could as they could, and every permutation of uniform was possible.
There is no definitive answer that can be given to the question.
There are some interesting examples of the variances available.
If you type SYLWETKA ZOLNIERZA POLSKIEGO 1920 and access http://www.patria.fora you will see recreations of the different type of uniforms worn.
The first shows an officer ( appears to be a lieutenant) wearing a mixed bag of German tunic, regulation breeches and a pre 1919 cap.
The second set of photos is particularly interesting and reflective on my description of the situation. He is described as wearing an American blouse, Austro-Hungarian equipment, older style cap ( which actually was quite popular with the troops at that time) and a Berthier rifle.
In the third set he is wearing the same as in the second set, but now has the French pattern helmet ( derived from a number of sources not only France) and an Austrian pack.
The fourth repeats the previous two.
The fifth shows the American blouse etc, but worn with French equipment.
The sixth on the page shows the 1919 regulation Polish pattern uniform. The form of side cap shown was interchangeable with the square-topped ‘rogatywka’ type.
(the remainder show uniforms from 1939.)
If you access http://www.1920.org.pl , just below the heading you will see WOJNA POLSKO-BOLSZEWICKA and a sub-heading WOJSKO POLSKIE. Clicking on that will allow you to access a few original photos. ( Piechota-Infantry, Jazda-Cavalry, Artyleria-Artillery, Lacznosc-Signals).
Lastly, if you type REKONSTRUKCJA SYLWETKI WOJSKA POLSKIEGO 1920 and access the site http://www.radunin.hosit pl you will see yet another variant.
The figure is described as a Senior Private/Lance Corporal of the 10th Infantry Division. The tunic and trousers are American ( sold as surplus to the Poles in very large numbers), and have been modified locally to have a Polish pattern collar and Polish buttons. Austro-Hungarian leather equipment, pouches and entrenching tool, German pack, water-bottle and bayonet, and carries an 1989 Mauser.( If the tunic shown here is substituted for the 1919 Polish pattern given before and the cap is substituted for the square-topped one, then you get very close to the regulation pattern established and being introduced mainly towards the end of the campaign)
I hope that this gives you a general starting guide, to this otherwise complex issue. I am more than happy to try and answer any more specific questions you may have on the topic.
I must also apologise for not being able to provide you with the direct links to the sites. Unfortunately I am of an age where I still wonder that my keyboard doesn’t play music but makes words appear on the magic-lantern screen in front of me, and have a learning curve towards technology that can be rivalled by a plank of wood. I haven’t quite got to grips on how to do this but do hope to achieve this before the Sun eventually swallows the Earth.
-
T. Snorrason
- Member
- Posts: 23
- Joined: 30 May 2013, 03:00
Re: Polish uniforms 1919-21 ?
Oldpops
Nice to find one, who is interested in the Polish uniforms 1917-1921.
Do you perhaps know, where to find a copy of the 1917 regulations?
I have only once seen in an old forum, where someone offered to send a full copy, else it seems mostly to be single illustrations from it on the net.
Else my interest for the moment is the "uniforms" of the Polish Boy Scouts and the unregulated flags and colours carried by the Poles.
In Barwa i Bron by M. Rezler, I have found a note on an article written by Rezler on the Scout uniforms: M. Rezler: Umundurowanie skautingu wielkopolskiego w latach 1912—1919, „Harcerstwo" 1985 nr 20.
Do you know, how to get hold of that article as a scan?
Perhaps even more articles on the subject exists?
I am not Polish speaking nor writing, I have to use Google Translation, so it is somewhat limited for med to correspond and find Poles interested in my subjects.
Nice to have found you.
Nice to find one, who is interested in the Polish uniforms 1917-1921.
Do you perhaps know, where to find a copy of the 1917 regulations?
I have only once seen in an old forum, where someone offered to send a full copy, else it seems mostly to be single illustrations from it on the net.
Else my interest for the moment is the "uniforms" of the Polish Boy Scouts and the unregulated flags and colours carried by the Poles.
In Barwa i Bron by M. Rezler, I have found a note on an article written by Rezler on the Scout uniforms: M. Rezler: Umundurowanie skautingu wielkopolskiego w latach 1912—1919, „Harcerstwo" 1985 nr 20.
Do you know, how to get hold of that article as a scan?
Perhaps even more articles on the subject exists?
I am not Polish speaking nor writing, I have to use Google Translation, so it is somewhat limited for med to correspond and find Poles interested in my subjects.
Nice to have found you.
Re: Polish uniforms 1919-21 ?
Hi T.
In 1917 the Poles had several formations of troops each linked to one of the partitioning countries, ( Germany, Austria-Hungary and Russia) as well as the ‘Blue’ Army being formed in France. A uniform set of regulations didn’t exist as such. I am aware of the existence of both Austro-Hungarian and French regulations, and have found what are probably early post-revolution regulations in Russia, floating about in Poland. Getting hold of these is either extremely expensive or, as I have found, requires them to be reconstructed from fragments scattered all over the place.
There are two sources in Poland which hold this type of information CAW, Centralne Archiwum Wojskwe - Central Military Archives and CBW. Centralna Bilblioteka Wojskowa- Central Military Archives. They have published a wealth of regulations, instructions from the period 1914 - 1939. Unfortunately, being in Polish, they won’t offer much help. So if you could let me know what information you need, I’ll go through them and see if I can reconstruct and translate as much as possible.
On the question of the Scouting Movement, the site MUZEUMHARCERSTWA.PL is one to visit. This details the history of the scouting movement in Poland. IF you search MUNDURY HARCERSTWA POLSKIEGO and then access the entry MUNDURY PRZEDWOJENNE - MUZEUM HARCERSTWA at muzumharcerstwa.pl, it will take you to a page which has some illustrations of the type of uniforms worn in the period 1918-1939, by both scouts and guides.
The text reads.
The illustrations presented in the gallery, show the patterns of the first uniforms worn by Polish Scouts. We can also find amongst them the patterns of Scout uniforms worn on Polish territory, even before the regaining of independence, as well as uniforms used by Scouts and Guides in the twenty-year interval between wars as well as in the West. The first uniforms were patterned on the English model, a thick woolen or flannel shirt with breast pockets and thin shoulder-straps, short trousers either above the knee or buttoning below them, a buckled belt, grey woolen socks with a blue or green facings and an American style hat made of soft felt, with one side pinned up. Merit badges first appeared in 1913 , as probably did rank badges. The first uniforms in Lwow ( now L’viv) appeared in a blue-grey colour. In 1913 there also appeared, following the Krakow movement, uniforms in a khaki colour.
The Guides uniform initially comprised a grey felt hat with a soft brim, a grey uniform blouse with one pocket and a grey skirt also with a pocket, closed with a leather belt. Scouts in the Russian held territories, as a result of their secret organisation, confined themselves to wearing and only in special circumstances, the hats, usually brought over from Galicia ( Province of Galicia-Lodomeria, South-East Poland). In the German held territories the uniforms of the German young persons tourists organisation were exploited, altered to match the Lwow pattern, often substituting the rogatywka ( sqaure-topped hat) for the brimmed type, as shown in preserved photographs. On the collar, the first letter of the troops ‘hero’ ( the historical figure after whom the troop was named) was worn
In 1917 a new pattern of uniform was pronounced in Warsaw. From this time on, a grey gabardine rogatywka with a black chin-strap was used, sometimes substituted by a school cap. The shirts, of the same cut as before, were now established as being of khaki colour. To this was added a neckerchief ( or scarf ), in any colour but always containing a red hue. The trousers were grey, closed with a leather belt and the bottoms were tucked inside of the socks and then closed with gaiters or with grey, khaki or brown puttees.
In the years 1918-1921 a further standardisation of the uniforms took place, now worn by all Scouts. the first regulations specified different categories of uniform; for Cubs, Guides and Scouts, Senior Scout and Guide officers.
In 1933 the ‘Scouting Uniform Regulations’ were introduced, which declared that the previously adopted uniforms had become traditional for the ZHP ( Zwiazek Harcerstwa Polskiego- Polish Scouting Association). According to this the uniform of the whole of the Association should be of a uniform cut and khaki colour. the realisation of this was achieved by the creation of a Central Scouting Provision Committee and committees in Poznan, Krakow, Lublin and
Lwow. The emphasis was place not only on its uniformity, but also its quality and low cost. As a result the uniform became school wear for a large proportion of poorer children, who did not necessarily belong to the Association
The items in brackets are my explanatory notes and don’t appear in the original Polish text. The blue_grey colour mentioned in the text is likely to be very similar to uniform colour of the Austrian Army 1914-1918
If you then go to the left side menu ( MENU WITRYNY), go down to GALERIE and access that, you will be able to examine a large number of photos of that period. Once again if you let me know what information you need, I will be able to do a search and point you in the right direction.
I’ve looked for the Rezler article but can’t find the text. If you bear with me I’ll write to the scouting museum and ask them if they have an extract, or failing that if they can provide any other info on the subject
Please do not hesitate to ask for further information. I’m actually British but bilingual and have worked as a translator , so it doesn’t take much time to do translations or searches in Polish.
regards
In 1917 the Poles had several formations of troops each linked to one of the partitioning countries, ( Germany, Austria-Hungary and Russia) as well as the ‘Blue’ Army being formed in France. A uniform set of regulations didn’t exist as such. I am aware of the existence of both Austro-Hungarian and French regulations, and have found what are probably early post-revolution regulations in Russia, floating about in Poland. Getting hold of these is either extremely expensive or, as I have found, requires them to be reconstructed from fragments scattered all over the place.
There are two sources in Poland which hold this type of information CAW, Centralne Archiwum Wojskwe - Central Military Archives and CBW. Centralna Bilblioteka Wojskowa- Central Military Archives. They have published a wealth of regulations, instructions from the period 1914 - 1939. Unfortunately, being in Polish, they won’t offer much help. So if you could let me know what information you need, I’ll go through them and see if I can reconstruct and translate as much as possible.
On the question of the Scouting Movement, the site MUZEUMHARCERSTWA.PL is one to visit. This details the history of the scouting movement in Poland. IF you search MUNDURY HARCERSTWA POLSKIEGO and then access the entry MUNDURY PRZEDWOJENNE - MUZEUM HARCERSTWA at muzumharcerstwa.pl, it will take you to a page which has some illustrations of the type of uniforms worn in the period 1918-1939, by both scouts and guides.
The text reads.
The illustrations presented in the gallery, show the patterns of the first uniforms worn by Polish Scouts. We can also find amongst them the patterns of Scout uniforms worn on Polish territory, even before the regaining of independence, as well as uniforms used by Scouts and Guides in the twenty-year interval between wars as well as in the West. The first uniforms were patterned on the English model, a thick woolen or flannel shirt with breast pockets and thin shoulder-straps, short trousers either above the knee or buttoning below them, a buckled belt, grey woolen socks with a blue or green facings and an American style hat made of soft felt, with one side pinned up. Merit badges first appeared in 1913 , as probably did rank badges. The first uniforms in Lwow ( now L’viv) appeared in a blue-grey colour. In 1913 there also appeared, following the Krakow movement, uniforms in a khaki colour.
The Guides uniform initially comprised a grey felt hat with a soft brim, a grey uniform blouse with one pocket and a grey skirt also with a pocket, closed with a leather belt. Scouts in the Russian held territories, as a result of their secret organisation, confined themselves to wearing and only in special circumstances, the hats, usually brought over from Galicia ( Province of Galicia-Lodomeria, South-East Poland). In the German held territories the uniforms of the German young persons tourists organisation were exploited, altered to match the Lwow pattern, often substituting the rogatywka ( sqaure-topped hat) for the brimmed type, as shown in preserved photographs. On the collar, the first letter of the troops ‘hero’ ( the historical figure after whom the troop was named) was worn
In 1917 a new pattern of uniform was pronounced in Warsaw. From this time on, a grey gabardine rogatywka with a black chin-strap was used, sometimes substituted by a school cap. The shirts, of the same cut as before, were now established as being of khaki colour. To this was added a neckerchief ( or scarf ), in any colour but always containing a red hue. The trousers were grey, closed with a leather belt and the bottoms were tucked inside of the socks and then closed with gaiters or with grey, khaki or brown puttees.
In the years 1918-1921 a further standardisation of the uniforms took place, now worn by all Scouts. the first regulations specified different categories of uniform; for Cubs, Guides and Scouts, Senior Scout and Guide officers.
In 1933 the ‘Scouting Uniform Regulations’ were introduced, which declared that the previously adopted uniforms had become traditional for the ZHP ( Zwiazek Harcerstwa Polskiego- Polish Scouting Association). According to this the uniform of the whole of the Association should be of a uniform cut and khaki colour. the realisation of this was achieved by the creation of a Central Scouting Provision Committee and committees in Poznan, Krakow, Lublin and
Lwow. The emphasis was place not only on its uniformity, but also its quality and low cost. As a result the uniform became school wear for a large proportion of poorer children, who did not necessarily belong to the Association
The items in brackets are my explanatory notes and don’t appear in the original Polish text. The blue_grey colour mentioned in the text is likely to be very similar to uniform colour of the Austrian Army 1914-1918
If you then go to the left side menu ( MENU WITRYNY), go down to GALERIE and access that, you will be able to examine a large number of photos of that period. Once again if you let me know what information you need, I will be able to do a search and point you in the right direction.
I’ve looked for the Rezler article but can’t find the text. If you bear with me I’ll write to the scouting museum and ask them if they have an extract, or failing that if they can provide any other info on the subject
Please do not hesitate to ask for further information. I’m actually British but bilingual and have worked as a translator , so it doesn’t take much time to do translations or searches in Polish.
regards
-
T. Snorrason
- Member
- Posts: 23
- Joined: 30 May 2013, 03:00
Re: Polish uniforms 1919-21 ?
Thank you for your kind answer and offer to help.
I certainly will make use of it.
There is a 1917 regulation on Polish uniforms, or rather perhaps what wass Polnische Wehrmacht.
That was "in use" for all Poland until the regulation of 1919, but of course mostly overlooked in the non-Prussian areas for many reasons, not least missing resources to follow it.
I will find the Polish wording of the regulation.
A little about myself.
I am Danish (67 years old pensioner) and about 10 years ago I became interested in Poland 1920, the history and its army and uniforms.
As I then had a Polish neighbour, she was kind enough to buy books on the subject via Allegro. A so I got a rather large collection of Polish (and Ukrainian) books on the period. Now it is about 5 metres of such books.
Of course language is a problem, but with Google I am able to translate those parts, which have my interest. Also astounding much can be found on the internet.
Via Allegro, the internet and books I also have collected some thousands of contemporary photos and pictures
My idea is to make something like an internet "book" on the Polish uniforms and the army of the period, and up to now I have made, what you can find on the Siberia Forum. Next up will the article by M. Rezler from "Barwa i bron".
I work rather slowly, sometimes being hit by health problems, which makes it all stand still for periods, but so is life
I have a question: can you recommend a Polish second hand bookseller?
To me it seems, they are not very interested in selling abroad. You can buy a book and the they disappear. Maybe I have just been unlucky, but I would rather like to find one, to whom I can just make a list of wanted books, then he can collect them or part of them and send in a packet. It is a little stupid to receive the books as single books. Of course I will pay for the books, as they are bought, easily done via internet bank transfers.
Kind regards
I certainly will make use of it.
There is a 1917 regulation on Polish uniforms, or rather perhaps what wass Polnische Wehrmacht.
That was "in use" for all Poland until the regulation of 1919, but of course mostly overlooked in the non-Prussian areas for many reasons, not least missing resources to follow it.
I will find the Polish wording of the regulation.
A little about myself.
I am Danish (67 years old pensioner) and about 10 years ago I became interested in Poland 1920, the history and its army and uniforms.
As I then had a Polish neighbour, she was kind enough to buy books on the subject via Allegro. A so I got a rather large collection of Polish (and Ukrainian) books on the period. Now it is about 5 metres of such books.
Of course language is a problem, but with Google I am able to translate those parts, which have my interest. Also astounding much can be found on the internet.
Via Allegro, the internet and books I also have collected some thousands of contemporary photos and pictures
My idea is to make something like an internet "book" on the Polish uniforms and the army of the period, and up to now I have made, what you can find on the Siberia Forum. Next up will the article by M. Rezler from "Barwa i bron".
I work rather slowly, sometimes being hit by health problems, which makes it all stand still for periods, but so is life
I have a question: can you recommend a Polish second hand bookseller?
To me it seems, they are not very interested in selling abroad. You can buy a book and the they disappear. Maybe I have just been unlucky, but I would rather like to find one, to whom I can just make a list of wanted books, then he can collect them or part of them and send in a packet. It is a little stupid to receive the books as single books. Of course I will pay for the books, as they are bought, easily done via internet bank transfers.
Kind regards
Re: Polish uniforms 1919-21 ?
Thank you for the information on uniforms, and the links for more.
http://www.1920.org.pl/ has very interesting information applicable to my uncles who fought in the Polish-Soviet war.
A small correction. The middle link should be http://www.patria.fora.pl/
http://www.1920.org.pl/ has very interesting information applicable to my uncles who fought in the Polish-Soviet war.
A small correction. The middle link should be http://www.patria.fora.pl/
-
T. Snorrason
- Member
- Posts: 23
- Joined: 30 May 2013, 03:00
Re: Polish uniforms 1919-21 ?
Hi
I have been to the Polish scout site, some very nice drawings and it seems, it should be possible to download different books. But sadly, the download function does not seem to work.
If you contact the museum about the Rezler article, perhaps you could also mention the downloading not working.
Or maybe I am doing something wrongly.
Regards
I have been to the Polish scout site, some very nice drawings and it seems, it should be possible to download different books. But sadly, the download function does not seem to work.
If you contact the museum about the Rezler article, perhaps you could also mention the downloading not working.
Or maybe I am doing something wrongly.
Regards
Re: Polish uniforms 1919-21 ?
Hi T.
Sorry, you are right of course. Because I’m not focussed upon events prior to 1918, the term ‘Polish Army’ is equated with that army after the process of reformation had started and consequently the first regulations are assumed to be the 1919 ones.
I assume that you mean Przepisy I Instrukcje . Umundorowanie Polowe Wojsk Polskich. Warszawa Kwiecien 1917. I fear that is one book that will be very difficult to find outside of Allegro, simply because the Polska Sila Zbrojna or Polnische Wehrmacht has been the poor relation with regards to the formation of the Polish Army in 1918, much more attention being focussed on the Legions, the Corps in Russia and the Blue Army.
I have only been able to find two copies of the regulations, the one listed by Allegro and one copy in the Prague Central Library. It may appear that unless someone owns a copy privately and can be contacted to scan the book,
that locating it may be nearly impossible. Instead I have a suggestion, why not go straight to the top, and contact the Muzeum Wojska Polskiego, the Wielkopolskie Muzeum Wojskowe and write to Professor Smolinski, who is reputed to be one of the experts in this field ?
Similarly I would suggest that a letter to the publishers of Bron I Barwa may bring some results in getting of copy of the article you seek. Incidentally, an addition to that article has been written and is listed in an associated site.
I have had a look through the digital libraries. They contain a wealth of information on the Wojska Wielkopolskie, but none of it is specifically aimed at the uniforms. However the CAW does contain a little gem, hundreds of pages of the original documentation on the organisation, structure and administration of this force in Upper Silesia from 1918 onwards.
There are a number of booksellers in Poland that I have used and have found to be really good.
Antykwariat Internetowy waw.pl Has loads of second-hand books from all periods. and a large stock of books written 1950 plus and quite a few from before that date.
Antykwariat Conradus 11.pl Has a good selection of books printed towards the beginning of the last century.
Antykwariat Ksiazki Jan Mazurek. Has a large mixed selection of books.
All were very helpful and delivered to me without problems. All I had to do was to place the order on the site, pay them and when the order was ready it was sent it out. I am assuming that they actively hunt out books to, because on a couple of occasions, they contacted me saying that one of the books was unavailable, but later got back to me and said that they had located a copy. I also know that at least one of them was able to operate in English, but I can’t remember which one it was.
I have used others but these were more sellers of rare books. They were very expensive
I
As a general note if you or anyone else is interested, I have located the Dziennik Rozkazow Wojskowych - A register of the orders issued to the Polish Army for 1918 and 1919. ( but also cover the period 1920 onwards). Having spoken about the diversity of uniforms worn, Order Number 32 of 31st December 1918 - Dziennik Rozkazow Wojskowych, Rok II Nr1. 4 Stycznia 1919r ( Year 2 No 1, 4th January 1919) gives the following:
D.M.O.N. 1
In fulfilment of the orders no 296 and 407,in view of the lack of materials, permission is granted to utilise uniforms of a different type than those authorised in the Regulations of 1917, but only after the removal of all insignia belonging to other formations and their replacement by insignia conforming to the Regulations given above.
All necessary departures from the above regulations, both in style as well as the facing colours and insignia are permitted, on the proviso that their adoption complements the regulations announced in the Register of Orders.
Warsaw, 31 December 1918
Director Ministry of Military Affairs
(-) Wroczynski
Colonel
Unfortunately the document which contains no 296 and 407, is missing so I cannot reference that one at the moment. In terms of the transition between the 1917 and 1919 uniform regulations, orders also document the composition, authority and scope of the commission appointed to establish the 1919 pattern uniform, and also give some specifics for the adoption of uniforms of the Horse Artillery, Navy and Air Force in 1919. If anyone wants this information , just let me know and I’ll post a translation.
Regards
Sorry, you are right of course. Because I’m not focussed upon events prior to 1918, the term ‘Polish Army’ is equated with that army after the process of reformation had started and consequently the first regulations are assumed to be the 1919 ones.
I assume that you mean Przepisy I Instrukcje . Umundorowanie Polowe Wojsk Polskich. Warszawa Kwiecien 1917. I fear that is one book that will be very difficult to find outside of Allegro, simply because the Polska Sila Zbrojna or Polnische Wehrmacht has been the poor relation with regards to the formation of the Polish Army in 1918, much more attention being focussed on the Legions, the Corps in Russia and the Blue Army.
I have only been able to find two copies of the regulations, the one listed by Allegro and one copy in the Prague Central Library. It may appear that unless someone owns a copy privately and can be contacted to scan the book,
that locating it may be nearly impossible. Instead I have a suggestion, why not go straight to the top, and contact the Muzeum Wojska Polskiego, the Wielkopolskie Muzeum Wojskowe and write to Professor Smolinski, who is reputed to be one of the experts in this field ?
Similarly I would suggest that a letter to the publishers of Bron I Barwa may bring some results in getting of copy of the article you seek. Incidentally, an addition to that article has been written and is listed in an associated site.
I have had a look through the digital libraries. They contain a wealth of information on the Wojska Wielkopolskie, but none of it is specifically aimed at the uniforms. However the CAW does contain a little gem, hundreds of pages of the original documentation on the organisation, structure and administration of this force in Upper Silesia from 1918 onwards.
There are a number of booksellers in Poland that I have used and have found to be really good.
Antykwariat Internetowy waw.pl Has loads of second-hand books from all periods. and a large stock of books written 1950 plus and quite a few from before that date.
Antykwariat Conradus 11.pl Has a good selection of books printed towards the beginning of the last century.
Antykwariat Ksiazki Jan Mazurek. Has a large mixed selection of books.
All were very helpful and delivered to me without problems. All I had to do was to place the order on the site, pay them and when the order was ready it was sent it out. I am assuming that they actively hunt out books to, because on a couple of occasions, they contacted me saying that one of the books was unavailable, but later got back to me and said that they had located a copy. I also know that at least one of them was able to operate in English, but I can’t remember which one it was.
I have used others but these were more sellers of rare books. They were very expensive
I
As a general note if you or anyone else is interested, I have located the Dziennik Rozkazow Wojskowych - A register of the orders issued to the Polish Army for 1918 and 1919. ( but also cover the period 1920 onwards). Having spoken about the diversity of uniforms worn, Order Number 32 of 31st December 1918 - Dziennik Rozkazow Wojskowych, Rok II Nr1. 4 Stycznia 1919r ( Year 2 No 1, 4th January 1919) gives the following:
D.M.O.N. 1
In fulfilment of the orders no 296 and 407,in view of the lack of materials, permission is granted to utilise uniforms of a different type than those authorised in the Regulations of 1917, but only after the removal of all insignia belonging to other formations and their replacement by insignia conforming to the Regulations given above.
All necessary departures from the above regulations, both in style as well as the facing colours and insignia are permitted, on the proviso that their adoption complements the regulations announced in the Register of Orders.
Warsaw, 31 December 1918
Director Ministry of Military Affairs
(-) Wroczynski
Colonel
Unfortunately the document which contains no 296 and 407, is missing so I cannot reference that one at the moment. In terms of the transition between the 1917 and 1919 uniform regulations, orders also document the composition, authority and scope of the commission appointed to establish the 1919 pattern uniform, and also give some specifics for the adoption of uniforms of the Horse Artillery, Navy and Air Force in 1919. If anyone wants this information , just let me know and I’ll post a translation.
Regards
-
T. Snorrason
- Member
- Posts: 23
- Joined: 30 May 2013, 03:00
Re: Polish uniforms 1919-21 ?
Hi
yes it is: Przepisy I Instrukcje . Umundorowanie Polowe Wojsk Polskich. Warszawa Kwiecien 1917, I am looking for.
I ahve thought of contacting their Military Museum, but generally most such places are rather unfriendly in my exxperience.
To them it is stupid questions and just gives a lot a work.
The reglement is essential, even if only few soldiers got the uniforms, as the Polnische Wehrmacht as you know, was no success with only a few thousand men, until it became a Polish organisation, then old legionaries enlisted en masse.
The reglement was considered the ruling one until 1919.
In a Polish forum, one had a complete one and offered copies. I will try to find the site, maybe you can ask him for a copy.
A letter to the publishers - some high school - or maybe better to professor Marek himself, as he still publishes works on the Poznan Army. It is worth a try.
Yes, on the net is astoundingly good stuff, the Poles have really used that opportunity. Especially I find the Poznan digital library very good. I guess, such are run by the different provinces, Poznan, Silesia and so on. But have up to know found only those two with military history, lots of good old books and for Poznan all the daily orders. Also all the small, short military histories are to be found there. Sadly a little difficult to use in translating programs, as the print and paper quality is often very bad.
I will look at those second hand booksellers you mention, as I have to find a reliable one.
I know the contemporary photos of CAW. and have downloaded, those which have my interest.
It is rather astounding, how much have survived the wars,especially in the areas not later becoming White Russia and Ukraine. In those areas it still seems a period best forgotten.
As you has great knowledge of the subject, why do you not put some of it up on some forum? You is very welcome to use the Siberian, and I can arrange, so you can go in directly and change and better my stuff - also my language.
My hope, which I guess never will be fulfilled, is to make a kind of "living book" , constantly being enlarged and bettered - and in the end put it all together in one work.
I know it is a dream, but to me a nice dream to work on.
Regards
yes it is: Przepisy I Instrukcje . Umundorowanie Polowe Wojsk Polskich. Warszawa Kwiecien 1917, I am looking for.
I ahve thought of contacting their Military Museum, but generally most such places are rather unfriendly in my exxperience.
To them it is stupid questions and just gives a lot a work.
The reglement is essential, even if only few soldiers got the uniforms, as the Polnische Wehrmacht as you know, was no success with only a few thousand men, until it became a Polish organisation, then old legionaries enlisted en masse.
The reglement was considered the ruling one until 1919.
In a Polish forum, one had a complete one and offered copies. I will try to find the site, maybe you can ask him for a copy.
A letter to the publishers - some high school - or maybe better to professor Marek himself, as he still publishes works on the Poznan Army. It is worth a try.
Yes, on the net is astoundingly good stuff, the Poles have really used that opportunity. Especially I find the Poznan digital library very good. I guess, such are run by the different provinces, Poznan, Silesia and so on. But have up to know found only those two with military history, lots of good old books and for Poznan all the daily orders. Also all the small, short military histories are to be found there. Sadly a little difficult to use in translating programs, as the print and paper quality is often very bad.
I will look at those second hand booksellers you mention, as I have to find a reliable one.
I know the contemporary photos of CAW. and have downloaded, those which have my interest.
It is rather astounding, how much have survived the wars,especially in the areas not later becoming White Russia and Ukraine. In those areas it still seems a period best forgotten.
As you has great knowledge of the subject, why do you not put some of it up on some forum? You is very welcome to use the Siberian, and I can arrange, so you can go in directly and change and better my stuff - also my language.
My hope, which I guess never will be fulfilled, is to make a kind of "living book" , constantly being enlarged and bettered - and in the end put it all together in one work.
I know it is a dream, but to me a nice dream to work on.
Regards
Re: Polish uniforms 1919-21 ?
Hi Henryk
I too had family fighting in that war. One of my grandfathers ran away from home when he was 15 and joined the Polish legions. My other grandfather joined the Army sometime in 1918/ early 1919, fought in the Ukraine and then in the Polish-Soviet War, where he was awarded the Virtuti after taking a group of Bolshevik officers prisoner, whilst he was on patrol. The story my grandmother told me was that on this patrol, he dismounted ( being a cavalryman) and decided to forage in an abandoned house. He unexpectedly came across this group of officers who were either asleep or snoring off the effects of a late night drinking session. Having left his rifle on his horse and otherwise being unarmed, he searched around for a weapon and found a pistol under a pillow. Taking this his gently roused the officers ( yeah! I bet) and marched them back to his squadron. I was also told that when celebrating the award, the celebrations lasted a full three days. I don’t know how true this was ( he is listed as having been awarded the Virtuti) but it makes for a good story. This just goes to proves that I’m part of a family that’s slightly mad.
Unfortunately, both of my parents lived in the eastern part of Poland and were deported to sunny Siberia in 1940. They lost all of their possessions during the subsequent evacuation to Persia in 1942., and I only have one photo of this grandfather in uniform taken in the 1930's.
Incidentally I grew up surrounded by veteran’s of this war. It was fascinating to watch them when they got together and started to reminisce, men in their 60's suddenly turned 20 again, their eyes began to light up and they told some of the funniest stories about that and the 39-45 war I have ever heard. I suppose veterans all over the world are much the same. I suspect your uncles will have similar stories.
regards
I too had family fighting in that war. One of my grandfathers ran away from home when he was 15 and joined the Polish legions. My other grandfather joined the Army sometime in 1918/ early 1919, fought in the Ukraine and then in the Polish-Soviet War, where he was awarded the Virtuti after taking a group of Bolshevik officers prisoner, whilst he was on patrol. The story my grandmother told me was that on this patrol, he dismounted ( being a cavalryman) and decided to forage in an abandoned house. He unexpectedly came across this group of officers who were either asleep or snoring off the effects of a late night drinking session. Having left his rifle on his horse and otherwise being unarmed, he searched around for a weapon and found a pistol under a pillow. Taking this his gently roused the officers ( yeah! I bet) and marched them back to his squadron. I was also told that when celebrating the award, the celebrations lasted a full three days. I don’t know how true this was ( he is listed as having been awarded the Virtuti) but it makes for a good story. This just goes to proves that I’m part of a family that’s slightly mad.
Unfortunately, both of my parents lived in the eastern part of Poland and were deported to sunny Siberia in 1940. They lost all of their possessions during the subsequent evacuation to Persia in 1942., and I only have one photo of this grandfather in uniform taken in the 1930's.
Incidentally I grew up surrounded by veteran’s of this war. It was fascinating to watch them when they got together and started to reminisce, men in their 60's suddenly turned 20 again, their eyes began to light up and they told some of the funniest stories about that and the 39-45 war I have ever heard. I suppose veterans all over the world are much the same. I suspect your uncles will have similar stories.
regards
Re: Polish uniforms 1919-21 ?
HI T
I’ve located a copy of Przepisy I Instrukcje 1917 at the Wojskowa Biblioteka Cyfrowa
If you access that website and go to ZBIORY, in the pull-down menu go to ZBIORY CYFROWE.
Once this page opens up, click on the link WOJSKOWA BIBLIOTEKA CYFROWA ZBROJOWNIA.
This page opened up in English and was headed Frequently Read Publications. In the left-hand box under ‘library’ click on the last entry -MILITARY INSTRUCTIONS AND REGULATIONS . Once this is loaded click on ALL OF in the ‘ Display’ panel.
The Przepisy are number 20 in that list.
There is a problem though. I was unable to find a means of downloading or copying the text or illustrations, so it may mean making sketches of the illustrations if you want a hard copy.
If you bear with me I’ll translate the text and then get back to you.
If you are interested the 1919 regulations are also available, They are at number 4 on the list and are downloadable.
regards.
I’ve located a copy of Przepisy I Instrukcje 1917 at the Wojskowa Biblioteka Cyfrowa
If you access that website and go to ZBIORY, in the pull-down menu go to ZBIORY CYFROWE.
Once this page opens up, click on the link WOJSKOWA BIBLIOTEKA CYFROWA ZBROJOWNIA.
This page opened up in English and was headed Frequently Read Publications. In the left-hand box under ‘library’ click on the last entry -MILITARY INSTRUCTIONS AND REGULATIONS . Once this is loaded click on ALL OF in the ‘ Display’ panel.
The Przepisy are number 20 in that list.
There is a problem though. I was unable to find a means of downloading or copying the text or illustrations, so it may mean making sketches of the illustrations if you want a hard copy.
If you bear with me I’ll translate the text and then get back to you.
If you are interested the 1919 regulations are also available, They are at number 4 on the list and are downloadable.
regards.
-
T. Snorrason
- Member
- Posts: 23
- Joined: 30 May 2013, 03:00
Re: Polish uniforms 1919-21 ?
Hi
thank you very much, I will at once go and have a look.
I have a program, which perhaps is usable, at least it can copy the pages.
regards
thank you very much, I will at once go and have a look.
I have a program, which perhaps is usable, at least it can copy the pages.
regards
Re: Polish uniforms 1919-21 ?
Hi T.
You are very welcome. I have worked out how to save the items using print screen and paste and as a precaution have made a hard copy of the entire regulations including the coloured plates, (75 JPEG pages) so whatever happens a copy is safe for you.
regards
You are very welcome. I have worked out how to save the items using print screen and paste and as a precaution have made a hard copy of the entire regulations including the coloured plates, (75 JPEG pages) so whatever happens a copy is safe for you.
regards