Kapt Olli Puhakka's claim 26.06.1944

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wit61owl
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Kapt Olli Puhakka's claim 26.06.1944

Post by wit61owl » 27 May 2013 17:53

Hi everybody
On 26 of june 1944 in aerial vombat with Messerschmitt fighters in area of Vipuri Senior Lt. Serov, Vladimir Georgiyevich from 159 IAP, an ace with 39 kills was shot down and killed. Is it possible that Kapt. Puhakka,s claim of La-5 over Lyykylänjärvi between 12.55 and 14.15 hours was regarding that event?
All the best.

olia
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Re: Kapt Olli Puhakka's claim 26.06.1944

Post by olia » 28 May 2013 08:59

http://airaces.narod.ru/all1/serov_vg.htm


Pilots led by Serov and people watching from the ground for his last fight (he came near the city of Vyborg), helped to restore the details of what happened.

Finding four "Messers" Serov led his unit to attack. Finding himself behind the German plane, Vladimir first attack hit it. Serov supporter - a young, still inexperienced pilot - did not catch the rapid maneuver commander and fell behind. Another young pilot, trying by all means to win, broke the first commandment of air combat - left the group and went after the German fighter ...

With Serov was only one pilot Golovachyov. And then on top of the clouds emerged 4 more enemy fighters. In the first attack, they shot down the plane Golovachev. Shot down because he did not have time to turn around as dramatically as did his master. Serov was alone against 7 enemies.

But he continued to fight. Seven "Messers" could not take the Vladimirs plane in ticks. Escaping from attacks, he fired up another "Messerschmitt". Apparently, it was already the last turn. Left without ammunition, Serov rushed up to the clouds to get out of the unequal struggle. But 4 more German fighters emerged from the clouds. And earlier than the pilot could do anything? his plane was showered with a hail of shells

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peeved
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Re: Kapt Olli Puhakka's claim 26.06.1944

Post by peeved » 28 May 2013 10:29

wit61owl wrote:Hi everybody
On 26 of june 1944 in aerial vombat with Messerschmitt fighters in area of Vipuri Senior Lt. Serov, Vladimir Georgiyevich from 159 IAP, an ace with 39 kills was shot down and killed. Is it possible that Kapt. Puhakka,s claim of La-5 over Lyykylänjärvi between 12.55 and 14.15 hours was regarding that event?
All the best.
In addition to HLeLv 34 that was credited one La-5 that day (Puhakka) and lost a BF-109 (Lt. Nils Trontti (POW)) in air combat http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luettelo_L ... tappioista perhaps also the 24 was involved. According to http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luettelo_L ... tappioista W/O Nils Katajainen was credited with a La-5 over Lyykylänjärvi between 13.05 and 14.20 hours. Katajainen was flying BF N:o MT-436 on a Blenheim escort mission.

Markus

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Panssari Salama
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Re: Kapt Olli Puhakka's claim 26.06.1944

Post by Panssari Salama » 28 May 2013 13:11

olia wrote: [snip]
Finding four "Messers" Serov led his unit to attack. Finding himself behind the German plane, Vladimir first attack hit it.
[snip]
I believe there were no German Me-109s in the area. Kuhlmey's Me-109s were all assigned to recon duties as far as I know, and they used their FW-190s for escort duties.

Some of the Me-109s used by Finnish Air Force were rushed into duties without paint jobs, so it is likely there were "German" Me-109s in the area although belonging to FiAF, with Finnish pilots.

Image
"Vääpeli Katajainen starttaa MT 109 G.6-koneella. (WO Katajainen starts with a Me-109 G6.) Lappeenranta 1944.06.30 "
Source: SA-kuva. http://www.SA-kuva.fi

Hävittäjälentäjä, vääpeli Katajainen, jolla on nyt 29 konetta tilillään. Lappeenranta 1944.06.30
Fighter Pilot, Warrant Officer Katajainen, who currently holds 29 kills to his merit.


Image

Source: http://www.SA-kuva.fi
Last edited by Panssari Salama on 28 May 2013 13:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kapt Olli Puhakka's claim 26.06.1944

Post by Panssari Salama » 28 May 2013 13:32

peeved wrote:
wit61owl wrote:Hi everybody
On 26 of june 1944 in aerial vombat with Messerschmitt fighters in area of Vipuri Senior Lt. Serov, Vladimir Georgiyevich from 159 IAP, an ace with 39 kills was shot down and killed. Is it possible that Kapt. Puhakka,s claim of La-5 over Lyykylänjärvi between 12.55 and 14.15 hours was regarding that event?
All the best.
In addition to HLeLv 34 that was credited one La-5 that day (Puhakka) and lost a BF-109 (Lt. Nils Trontti (POW)) in air combat http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luettelo_L ... tappioista perhaps also the 24 was involved. According to http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luettelo_L ... tappioista W/O Nils Katajainen was credited with a La-5 over Lyykylänjärvi between 13.05 and 14.20 hours. Katajainen was flying BF N:o MT-436 on a Blenheim escort mission.

Markus
Do we know if Capt Puhakka flew a Me-109 with Finnish markings, or with German markings?

This might be interesting in case the Russian report Olia refers to should be read literally, ie. the Russian pilots identified German Me-109s, not Finnish Me-109s.
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Re: Kapt Olli Puhakka's claim 26.06.1944

Post by Esa K » 28 May 2013 14:37

Hi!

Kapten Puhakka flew that day with MT-427... Finnish or German markings then???


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Panssari Salama
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Re: Kapt Olli Puhakka's claim 26.06.1944

Post by Panssari Salama » 28 May 2013 14:54

They seem to have sequence numbers close to each other on their planes (Katajainen MT-436 and Puhakka MT-427), which would seem to indicate the airframes arrived to the country quite close to each other.

Would they re-paint the ones going to 34 but not to 24 for some reason or other?
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olia
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Re: Kapt Olli Puhakka's claim 26.06.1944

Post by olia » 28 May 2013 19:54

In many Soviet documents Finns often named as Germans or German-Finnish Nazis. The documents of 1941 named the "White Finns, Finnish fascists". Typical in 1944 the " Nazis", or simply the Germans. The fact that Serov was killed in a battle with the German aircraft does not mean that the plane had German markings, it could be Finnish, but Soviet pilots did not have difference between Finnish or German. Earlier Serov fought only with Germans: south of Leningrad (1942), during the break(1943), and complete lifting of the blockade of Leningrad and at the Narva bridgehead(1944)

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Re: Kapt Olli Puhakka's claim 26.06.1944

Post by Panssari Salama » 29 May 2013 09:05

Hello Olia,

Yes, I think that is a well known fact Red Army did not differentiate their enemy, at least as much as the (still a bit naive) Finns would have liked to see. It was total war at the time after all.

In this case it was hard to differentiate, too, as the fighters had German insignia. A bit shocking to see they indeed did nothing to paint Finnish insignia to the planes. I guess they had other more important worries at the time.

This is a first Finnish Me-109 I see carrying full German colours. Thank you SA-kuvat for the 160 000 photographs that have been put to public.

Here's a picture from mid-May 1944 from HLeLv 24 and their earlier patch of warbirds, that had been properly painted over as these planes arrived already in 1943 I believe:

Image
Luutnantti Salovaaran ohjaama kone yhteentörmäyksen jälkeen. Suulajärvi, HLeLv 24.) 1944.05.12
Ltn Salovaara's fighter plane after a collision. Ibid.


Source: http://www.SA-kuva.fi
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Re: Kapt Olli Puhakka's claim 26.06.1944

Post by wit61owl » 01 Jun 2013 06:09

Thanks for all the informations. It seems that Serov's unit indeed fougft with HLeLv 34 and HLeLv 24 rather than any Luftwaffe unit and died hit ether by Katajainen or Puhakka, first shooting down the Bf109 flown by Tronti. Does anybody know the time of Sierov's death from russian documents?
All the best

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Re: Kapt Olli Puhakka's claim 26.06.1944

Post by Panssari Salama » 01 Jun 2013 09:43

Yes, I think it is difficult to judge which of the pilots actually got the kill as Olia's report lists more and more Finnish fighters dropping into fight.

So while it was HLeLv 34 who's loss of the day would seem to match with the report, and to place them at the thick of the action, HLeLv 24 scored three downed La-5's that day in the area: at Lyykölänjärvi, Tammisuo, and a bit further at Tali. So they were definitively at the area as well.

And Puhakka's and Katajainen's kills were recorded at the approximately same time. It would seem one got Golovachev the other Serov. But to go beyond this we would need more information and details...
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olia
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Re: Kapt Olli Puhakka's claim 26.06.1944

Post by olia » 02 Jun 2013 17:40

The act of investigating the causes of flight combat losses 159 IAP (Fighter Wing) 275 IAD (fighter Air Division) 13 VA(air Army ) LF(Leningrad front):

"...Акт расследования причин летных боевых потерь 159 ИАП
275 ИАД 13 ВА. Тип самолета - Ла-5, тип мотора - М-82-112.

...Боевую задачу ставил командир полка. Содержание: вылет по сигналу с КП командира дивизии на прикрытие наземных войск в районе Тали - Кавтюля составом 4 Ла-5 (ведущий старший лейтенант Серов).

Вести бой в группе, взаимодействия в парах и парами не отрываться от группы.

Выполнять задачу, производя противозенитный маневр, изменением высоты и направления полета.

При ухудшении погоды на высоте 200 метров видимости менее
3 км, с задания возвратиться.

Посадка на запасных аэродромах Хумалиоки, Бабошино, после получения команды по радио.

Взаимодействующих групп в данном полете не было. Следовать с курсом на юг.

Опыт в выполнении данной боевой задачи у экипажей имеется достаточный. Старший лейтенант Серов на прикрытие наземных войск произвел 95 вылетов, младший лейтенант Ташлыков - 32, младший лейтенант Головачев - 45. Слетанность группы была хорошей.
Уровень летной и специальной подготовки для выполнения данного задания у экипажей вполне соответствовал.

Боевую задачу экипажи знали накануне. До вылета находились в готовности № 1.
26 июня 1944 года в период с 14:10 - 15:05 - при патрулировании в районе Хейниоки на высоте 600 метров, группа встретила 4 Ме-109. Противник шел на встречных курсах с набором высоты. Старший лейтенант Серов принял решение атаковать противника и пошел в лобовую. При выходе из атаки группа Ла-5 была атакована сзади сверху из-за облаков и снизу второй четверкой Ме-109, в результате чего группа Ла-5 была рассеяна.

А) облачность 8-10 баллов, высота 600-700 метров, видимость 10-15 км. Группа Ла-5 при патрулировании ходила под нижней кромкой облачности;

Б) экипажи шли в строю фронта;

В) при встрече с противником старший лейтенант Серов пошел в лобовую, Ме-109 атаки не приняли, отвернули вправо. Серов с переворота зашел в хвост Ме-109 и в пике поджег его. Серова прикрывал младший лейтенант Головачев, младший лейтенант Ташлыков оторвался от группы при первой атаке, его действия в бою неизвестны. При выходе из атаки старший лейтенант Серов и младший лейтенант Головачев, были атакованы сверху и снизу 2 парами Ме-109, в результате атаки верхней пары Ме-109, Головачев был подбит, вышел из боя резким снижением. По донесению наземных войск Ла-5 (предположительно старший лейтенант Серов) вел бой с 4 Ме-109, в результате которого Ла-5 сбил один самолет противника, но и сам был сбит атакой 3-х Ме-109 с разных сторон.

Г) Противник произвел умелое наращивание сил, в результате чего наши экипажи, отвлеченные боем с первой четверкой, не заметили подхода второй четверки, которая используя облачность, произвела одновременную атаку с разных сторон, в результате чего рассеяли группу и часть вывели из строя (подбит Головачев, в этот же момент, предположительно, сбит младший лейтенант Ташлыков).

Д) младший лейтенант Ташлыков упал в озеро Нюлюян-ярви (предположительно убит в воздухе). Младший лейтенант Головачев на сильно поврежденном самолете дотянул до аэродрома, где при посадке потерпел аварию, самолет списан, летчик получил легкое ранение. Старший лейтенант Серов не вернулся с боевого задания. По донесению наземных войск в районе боя наблюдался один парашютист, который тянул на нашу территорию, но ветром был отнесен в расположение войск противника. При встрече с противником ведущий подал команду "Иду в атаку, прикройте". В дальнейшем бой шел одиночными самолетами. Команд не подавалось.
Причиной потери является численное превосходство противника, его выгодное исходное положение (группа Ла-5 была ограничена высотой), а также недостаточно четкое взаимодействие экипажей в бою...".


if you have the wish and time please translate from Russian to English. If not, the battle time Serov's group 14.10-15.05 26.06.1944

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Re: Kapt Olli Puhakka's claim 26.06.1944

Post by Seppo Koivisto » 02 Jun 2013 18:55

Google Translate
"... The act of investigating the causes of flight combat losses 159 IAP
IBP 275 13 VA. Type of aircraft - La-5 engine type - M-82-112.

Combat the problem ... put the regimental commander. Contents: departure on a signal from the CP division commander to cover the ground troops in the area Tali - Kavtyulya composition 4 La-5 (a leading lieutenant Serov).

To fight in a group interaction in pairs and pairs do not break away from the group.

Perform the task, making evasive maneuver, change the height and direction of flight.

With deteriorating weather at an altitude of 200 meters visibility is less than
3 km away from the job back.

Landing on alternate aerodromes Humalioki, Baboshin, after receiving the command on the radio.

Interacting groups in the flight no. Follow with a course to the south.

Experience in the implementation of the combat mission in a crew sufficient. Senior lieutenant Serov on cover for ground troops made 95 sorties, Lieutenant Tashlykov - 32, Lieutenant Golovachyov - 45. Sletannosti group was good.
The level of airworthiness and special training for the assignment in their carriages was quite adequate.

Combat mission crews knew the day before. Before departure were in readiness number 1.
June 26, 1944 between 14:10 - 15:05 - while on patrol in the area Heynioki at an altitude of 600 meters, the group met 4 Me-109. The enemy was on a collision course with a climb. Serov lieutenant decided to attack the enemy and went to a frontal. When you exit the attack group of the La-5 has been attacked from behind the clouds above and below the second quadruple the Me-109, resulting in a group of La-5 was dispersed.

A) Clear 8-10, the height of 600-700 meters, the visibility of 10-15 km. Group La-5 on patrol went under the bottom edge of the cloud;

B) crews were in the front ranks;

B) at a meeting with the enemy Lieutenant Serov went to the frontal, the Me-109 attacks are not accepted, turned away to the right. Serov with the coup went to the tail Me-109 and the peak set it on fire. Serov covered Golovachyov Lieutenant, Lieutenant Tashlykov broke away from the group at the first attack, his actions in battle are unknown. When you exit the attack lieutenant and second lieutenant Serov Golovachyov were attacked from above and below the two pairs of the Me-109, in an attack the upper pair of Me-109, Golovachyov was hit, came out of a fight a sharp decline. According to a report of ground troops La-5 (allegedly a senior lieutenant Serov) fought a battle with 4 Me-109, which resulted in the La-5 shot down one enemy plane, but he himself was shot down by an attack of 3 Me-109 from different angles.

D) The enemy made a skilful build-up, causing our crews are diverted to fight the first Quartet, did not notice the four second approach, which is using the cloud, made a simultaneous attack from different directions, resulting in a scattered group and part of the incapacitated (hit Golovachyov , at the same moment, supposedly shot down Lieutenant Tashlykov).

D) Lieutenant Tashlykov fell into the lake Nyulyuyan-Jarvi (presumably killed in the air). Lieutenant Golovachyov on heavily damaged plane held up to the aerodrome where the landing has crashed, the plane written off, the pilot was slightly injured. Senior lieutenant Serov did not return from a mission. According to a report of ground troops in the battle there was a paratrooper who was pulling into our territory, but the wind was related to the location of the enemy. At a meeting with the enemy leader gave the command, "I'm going on the attack, cover." In the future battle was single aircraft. Team has not been submitted.
The reason for the loss is the numerical superiority of the enemy, its favorable starting position (the group of La-5 was limited to the height), and a lack of clear communication crews in action ... ".

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Re: Kapt Olli Puhakka's claim 26.06.1944

Post by wit61owl » 03 Jun 2013 12:01

Спасибо Olia.
My another question is weather Moscow time and the time used in Finnish documents was the same one or there was a time diffirence ? And does the document You have cited provided a Manufacturer Number of aircraft flown by Serov?
All the best

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Re: Kapt Olli Puhakka's claim 26.06.1944

Post by Art » 03 Jun 2013 12:19

wit61owl wrote:Спасибо Olia.
My another question is weather Moscow time and the time used in Finnish documents was the same one or there was a time diffirence ?
There was an 1-hour difference, if you talk about 1944.

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