"Klooga"

Gravity · Post by **Gravity** » 22 Apr 2003 12:39

I have question.How much Estonians were killed in Klooga at 1941-1944??
And how much other ppl(non Estonians).

michael mills · Post by **michael mills** » 22 Apr 2003 12:53

From what I know of the Klooga Camp, it was a labour camp set up to cut peat. The prisoners were mainly Jews from other countries who had been sent to Estonia as slave labourers.

When the Soviet Army suddenly advanced into Estonia in 1944, there was no time to evacuate the prisoners from Klooga (as they were evacuated from Latvia), so they were shot and their bodies piled onto pyres for burning. However, the Soviet Army captured the camp before the bodeis could be burnt.

I have not read of Estonians being imprisoned at Klooga. If any were, they must have been Communists or other collaborators with Soviet rule.

Benoit Douville · Post by **Benoit Douville** » 23 Apr 2003 00:33

Gravity,

Klooga was a subcamp of the Vaivara camp in northern Estonia, near Tallinn. The Klooga camp was created in the summer of 1943, and was one of the large labor camps in Estonia. It held about two to three thousand male and female Jewish prisoners, most of whom arrived in August and September of 1943 from the Vilna ghetto. A minority came from the Kovno ghetto and elsewhere. There were also about one hundred Soviet prisoners of war in the camp. The Klooga camp had barbed - wire fences enclosed the entire camp as well as the two internal camps, which were guarded by German and Estonian SS men. About 20 000 Jews were murdered at the Vaivara concentration camp but I have never heard about Estonians murdered there.

Michael Mills,

When the Soviet army advanced through Estonia in July and August of 1944, the transfer of the prisoners in the Estonian camps to the Stutthof concentration camp in Germany began, via the Baltic Sea. In mid - September, while Jewish prisoners were still in the camps of Klooga and Lagedi, the German front in Estonia collapsed. On September 18, five hundred of the prisoners were shot at Lagedi. Early on September 19, Klooga was surrounded by German and Estonian SS men. Toward midday they began to take groups of prisoners from the camp to a nearby forest for execution, beginning with the men's camp. Some of the men tried to hide inside the camp, but most were found and shot. Others tried to flee from the execution site. Approximately twenty - four hundred Jews and one hundred Soviet prisoners of war died in this slaughter. A few days later, on September 28, when the Soviet army liberated Klooga, they found the corpses of the slain stacked for burning. Eighty - five of the prisoners, who had managed to hide within the camp or escape to the nearby forests, survived.

Regards to both of you.

Luca · Post by **Luca** » 02 Feb 2004 10:33

Benoit Douville wrote:Gravity,

Klooga was a subcamp of the Vaivara camp in northern Estonia, near Tallinn. It held about two to three thousand male and female Jewish prisoners, most of whom arrived in August and September of 1943 from the Vilna ghetto. A minority came from the Kovno ghetto and elsewhere. There were also about one hundred Soviet prisoners of war in the camp. The Klooga camp had barbed - wire fences enclosed the entire camp as well as the two internal camps, which were guarded by German and Estonian SS men. About 20 000 Jews were murdered at the Vaivara concentration camp but I have never heard about Estonians murdered there.

Michael Mills,

When the Soviet army advanced through Estonia in July and August of 1944, the transfer of the prisoners in the Estonian camps to the Stutthof concentration camp in Germany began, via the Baltic Sea. In mid - September, while Jewish prisoners were still in the camps of Klooga and Lagedi, the German front in Estonia collapsed. On September 18, five hundred of the prisoners were shot at Lagedi. Early on September 19, Klooga was surrounded by German and Estonian SS men. Toward midday they began to take groups of prisoners from the camp to a nearby forest for execution, beginning with the men's camp. Some of the men tried to hide inside the camp, but most were found and shot. Others tried to flee from the execution site. Approximately twenty - four hundred Jews and one hundred Soviet prisoners of war died in this slaughter. A few days later, on September 28, when the Soviet army liberated Klooga, they found the corpses of the slain stacked for burning. Eighty - five of the prisoners, who had managed to hide within the camp or escape to the nearby forests, survived.

Regards to both of you.

Dear Benoit,

[..."The Klooga camp was created in the summer of 1943, and was one of the large labor camps in Estonia."...(The camp was opened in September 44 have only 2.000 male and female prisoners, as You also say =..."It held about two to three thousand male and female Jewish prisoners"....)...so was Vaivara the largest in Eastern Europe outside Poland, not Klooga.

..."from the Vilna ghetto. A minority came from the Kovno ghetto and elsewhere".... Later minor groups of jews from Theresienstadt, Reichsgebiet, Poland and Hungary also arrived in KZ-Vaivara.

...."Approximately twenty - four hundred Jews and one hundred Soviet prisoners of war died in this slaughter. A few days later, on September 28, when the Soviet army liberated Klooga,"..... The execution of the 19 Sept. was for appoximately 2000 prisoners but the red army entred the camp on 24 September, not the 28.]

cause some mistakes or imprecisations and reading the exact same text probable your source is this page =
http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/text/x12/xm1286.html
and this page
http://motlc.wiesenthal.org/text/x33/xm3355.html
so sincerly i cant understend why you claim :

..."About 20 000 Jews were murdered at the Vaivara concentration camp"....

infact in the same page We can read:

..."The sick and the weak among the Jewish prisoners, and all the old people and children who could not work, were killed after Selektionen. The first Selektion was held in the fall of 1943 on the parade ground of the camp: 150 Jewish men and women who had been found unfit for labor were transferred by truck to the nearby forest and shot. In the second Selektion about 300 Jews were taken out to their death, in particular those suffering from typhoid. In twenty other Selektionen, held approximately every two weeks, about 500 Jewish prisoners were killed. In one Selektion, the children, who until then had been kept together in a special hut, were killed. Many scores of other prisoners were killed and wounded by the blows and punishments of the SS.".....

for the poor that i know in August 44 the germans retreated from East Estonia and the prisoners of KZ-Vaivara and subcamps (with the exception of Klooga) were trasferred to KZ-Stutthof and furhter westward to subcamps of KZ-Natzweiler.
So is no clear for my when and where these 20.000 was killed.
Looking in the link We can read that:

..."Through it passed some twenty thousand Jews brought from the ghettos of Vilna and Kovno in Lithuania, and from Latvia. On arrival in Estonia, the Jews were kept for some time in the Vaivara camp, which was consequently known also as a transit camp. In addition, Vaivara was a concentration camp, with an average of about thirteen hundred prisoners, the large majority of whom were Jewish (men, women, and children), with a minority of Russians, Dutch, and Estonians.".....

In this case if the 20.000 that you claim is correct, the entiere prisoners population of the KZ was exterminated, with a large addition of transit prisoners.
Thank you for some explanations.
Luca

Ps = thank you for the informations concern the facts occurred in Lagedi subcamps, that i never know.
Concern the .."about twenty laboup camps".. of KZ-Vaivara mentioned in the link.. i know that was 15, who know the remains?

Corrosion · Post by **Corrosion** » 02 Feb 2004 13:09

There were no jews in Estonia, well some were and they were in KGB. Mostly estonias were executed and whole families where sent to Siberia, where they died. Some came back, included my grandmothers mother, who died working on crop field.
And all that mumbo jumbo about holocaust, yes Hitler was evil but noone is talking about much bigger criminal Stalin.

Georg_S · Post by **Georg_S** » 03 Feb 2004 10:42

Hi

Corrosion wrote:
"There was no jews in Estonia."

?? Correct me if I am wrong but didn´t Stahlecker report
to the German HQ in Berlin that Estonia was "Judenfrei" in about 42-43
So obvious it must have been Jews in Estonia.Or what happened to them?

/georg

Eistir · Post by **Eistir** » 03 Feb 2004 11:20

There was aproximately 900 jews left in Estland when germans was liberating the country.There was 4000 jews before the war,including 500 jews from Österreich who was getting asylum from Estonia,but most of them was going to soviet Russia before germans arrived.Those who stayed was mostly extreme communist criminals,so those criminals was getting just justice,like it should be.

Georg_S · Post by **Georg_S** » 04 Feb 2004 21:21

Eistir Wrote:
"When the Germans liberated the Country" I think a lot of Estonians and other have a opinion about that. What is your source that the Jews who stayed in Estonia when the Germans came where Criminal Communists?
I also would like to know how that Star that every jew where forced to wear looked like if they where Criminal (Green) Communists (Black) and Jew (Yellow).

Meybe someone can give me that info .... hrm

Best

Georg

David Thompson · Post by **David Thompson** » 04 Feb 2004 21:59

Eistir -- Please post sources for your assertions.

Luca · Post by **Luca** » 04 Feb 2004 22:04

Georg wrote:I also would like to know how that Star that every jew where forced to wear looked like if they where Criminal (Green) Communists (Black) and Jew (Yellow).

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=41935
Luca

Kunikov · Post by **Kunikov** » 04 Feb 2004 22:36

Corrosion wrote:There were no jews in Estonia, well some were and they were in KGB. Mostly estonias were executed and whole families where sent to Siberia, where they died. Some came back, included my grandmothers mother, who died working on crop field.
And all that mumbo jumbo about holocaust, yes Hitler was evil but noone is talking about much bigger criminal Stalin.

There was no KGB until after the second world war. There were in fact Jews in all three Baltic countries, look toward reports from Einzatsgruppen to find out how many.

Dan · Post by **Dan** » 05 Feb 2004 01:25

The broad concensus is that there were about 5000 Jews in Estonia, and the Soviets managed to evacutate about 4000. Somewhere between 500-900 Estonian Jews seem to have been killed in Estonia. It also seem that Jews were overrepresented in the leadership of various communist bureaucracies, and there seems to have been a general belief in the general population of Estonia that Jews played a disproportionate role in the persecution of various segments of the Estonian population during the Soviet occupation. Whether or not these beliefs were founded on fact has never really meant anything in human history.

Reigo · Post by **Reigo** » 05 Feb 2004 10:07

There was aproximately 900 jews left in Estland when germans was liberating the country.There was 4000 jews before the war,including 500 jews from Österreich who was getting asylum from Estonia,but most of them was going to soviet Russia before germans arrived.Those who stayed was mostly extreme communist criminals,so those criminals was getting just justice,like it should be.

Logics say that those who stayed were not "extreme communist criminals" otherwise they would have escaped. But I guess modern Hitler worshippers have their own special logics.

Eistir · Post by **Eistir** » 05 Feb 2004 19:06

Georg:Eistir Wrote:
"When the Germans liberated the Country" I think a lot of Estonians and other have a opinion about that.
-------------------
Exactly how many older estonians do you know?Do any estonians have to care about others opinions,others whos information about what was happening is based on allied and soviet propaganda.
-----------------------------
Georg:What is your source that the Jews who stayed in Estonia
-----------------------------------------
As long as I remember I sayd most,not all.Please don't changhe my words.

Reigo:Logics say that those who stayed were not "extreme communist criminals" otherwise they would have escaped. But I guess modern Hitler worshippers have their own special logics.
----------------------------------

How many of your people know that Estonia was first country which was giving cultural autonomy to jews?Even jewish prisoners was getting kosher food in prison.Estonia was also giving asylum for 500 jews from Österreich while all other countrys was sending them back.
So,they didn't hade any problems in Estonia,but still they wanted to destroy our independence .When soviet union was occupying Estonia first time,lot of them was joining to the destruction batallions out of free will.Leaders of those batallions was Mihhail Pasternak and Hans Grabbe (Hasa Hoff).Historian and ex-prime minister of Estonia Mart Laar is writing in his book "Metsavennad"(Tallinn,1993,lk 24) that there existed even destruction batallion with only jews. Lot of crimes was commited against womans(didn't play any roll, pregnant or not) and kids,even little babys.Instead of total support to the goverment which was taking care of them ,they was answering with extrem crimes against estonians.I still don't understand where from they was getting that kind of hatred against ordinary estonians?
Ihope it gives a little answer to the question why it went with the jews in Estonia like it went.
Story is long and unfortunately I don't have my books right now here,but I'm gona return to those crimes and I'm gona keep you guys informed.

nublu · Post by **nublu** » 05 Feb 2004 22:05

Early on September 19, Klooga was surrounded by German and Estonian SS men. Toward midday they began to take groups of prisoners from the camp to a nearby forest for execution, beginning with the men's camp. Some of the men tried to hide inside the camp, but most were found and shot. Others tried to flee from the execution site. Approximately twenty - four hundred Jews and one hundred Soviet prisoners of war died in this slaughter.

Do you have any information which units were involved in this operation?

I haven't heard about any Estonian SS unit what was involved in guarding of camps. And also killing in camps.

There were estonians among guards, but they were mostly from Omakaitse. Not SS. Estonians who have been sentenced because of war crimes were serving in SD.

rgrds

Toomas