4.7 cm Festungspak 36 (t) performance

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TH
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4.7 cm Festungspak 36 (t) performance

Post by TH » 11 Jan 2014 02:48

When Germany occupied Czechoslovakia, the 4.7 cm Festungspak 36 (t) was a modern weapon. It was considered so good, that production continued for a few years.
What I wonder is, how was the situation in the later years of the war in 1944/45? By that time the design must have been almost a decade old, and most other Paks of that age were obsolete.

However new bunkers for the 4.7 cm Pak were still being constructed in 44/45. I found penetration values for the PzGr 40 of 100 mm at 100 m and 59 mm at 500 m. That should theoretically have been enough to penetrate allied tanks like the Sherman or Cromwell at short-medium ranges, maybe even the heavier Churchill.
Are there any known records of anti-tank performance during D-Day or later encounters?
Was it still a decent gun at that time or just used because it was available?

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Christian Ankerstjerne
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Re: 4.7 cm Festungspak 36 (t) performance

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 11 Jan 2014 05:11

The gun would still have been useful against light tanks and armored vars, but not against late-war medium and heavy tanks. The 4,7 cm Pzgr. 40 was an APCR shell using a tungsten core, which was a scarce material. As a result, the vast majority of shells were the much more common (but less powerful) 4,7 cm Pzgr. 36 (t), an APC-HE shell. This limited penetration to 54 mm at 100 meters, and 48 mm at 500 meters.

Ondrej Filip
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Re: 4.7 cm Festungspak 36 (t) performance

Post by Ondrej Filip » 11 Jan 2014 22:29

There are a little different penetration data in Czech book "Czechoslovak 4cm fortress gun Mk. 36". With original munition produced for the Germans also as 4,7 cm Pzgr. 36(t): 50 mm at 1050 m and 38 mm at 1850 m. There were also improvised model 4,7 cm Pzgr. 36(t) umg. (Czechoslovak cartridge with Austrian Böhler shell) with worst performance: 44 mm at 100m and 24,9 mm at 1500 m. Of course there is a problem with different methods of testing. However those Böhler shells were tested by Wehrmacht.

Sherman tank had turret side 50 mm thick and hull sides 38 – 45 mm. The 4.7 cm Festungspak 36 (t) probably could knock the tank, but only in appropriate circumstances (distance and angle). The Festungpak embrasure was not resistant to 7,5 cm armour piercing shells.

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Christian Ankerstjerne
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Re: 4.7 cm Festungspak 36 (t) performance

Post by Christian Ankerstjerne » 12 Jan 2014 00:45

Thank you for those figures, Ondrej. The penetration appears to be significantly greater than that of the German armor penetration table.

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Re: 4.7 cm Festungspak 36 (t) performance

Post by jopaerya » 12 Jan 2014 09:31

I don't know if it helps but here some figures from a bunker plan of the 4.7 cm

Regards Jos
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TH
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Re: 4.7 cm Festungspak 36 (t) performance

Post by TH » 12 Jan 2014 22:04

Thanks everybody,
sounds like the usefulness against real tanks was limited to short ranges under 500 m.

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R_Rijntjes
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Re: 4.7 cm Festungspak 36 (t) performance

Post by R_Rijntjes » 12 Jan 2014 22:17

I dont know the exact distance of the two 631's in Koudekerke, but i think both are to far away of their target, the road.
If a sherman had come here, They had a problem.

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der bunkermann
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Re: 4.7 cm Festungspak 36 (t) performance

Post by der bunkermann » 04 Jul 2019 12:30

Hi all,
We would like to re-equip our 4.7 Pak bunker with a gun.
I know a original one is probably not easy or not possible to find at all, so as an alternative we might make a replica..
I'm hoping someone here can provide us with detailed drawings of the gun an armoured plate?
Or knows were we can find it?
A drawings in color to put on display would also be awewome :thumbsup:

Greetings,
Tim
www.atlantikwallmuseum.nl

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der bunkermann
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Re: 4.7 cm Festungspak 36 (t) performance

Post by der bunkermann » 04 Jul 2019 13:33

By armoured plate i mean the inside of the PaKscharteneinsatz 770P4 :idea:

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M19 MADMAL
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Re: 4.7 cm Festungspak 36 (t) performance

Post by M19 MADMAL » 04 Jul 2019 20:51

Hi,

Three Czech photos of the gun

Regards,
Malcolm :milwink:
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"I had expected only ruins", "It's as if I had only left the bunker yesterday!"
Herr Engelbert Hoppe. M19 bunker Commander 1944/45 when he first returned in 2006.

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M19 MADMAL
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Re: 4.7 cm Festungspak 36 (t) performance

Post by M19 MADMAL » 04 Jul 2019 20:59

From the 1981 C.I. Occupation Review

Hope they are of help.

Regards,
Malcolm :milwink:
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"I had expected only ruins", "It's as if I had only left the bunker yesterday!"
Herr Engelbert Hoppe. M19 bunker Commander 1944/45 when he first returned in 2006.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/StrongpointCorbiereJersey/

svdb10
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Re: 4.7 cm Festungspak 36 (t) performance

Post by svdb10 » 05 Jul 2019 07:52

der bunkermann wrote:
04 Jul 2019 12:30
A drawings in color to put on display would also be awewome :thumbsup:
Hi Tim,
Can't help you with a replica (or an original gun :D ), but I could try and make you a 3d model / drawing(s) to put on display. Although I normally tend to stick to Dutch fortifications and weaponry, a Festungpak should make a really interesting subject for a model! Just send me a PM if you're interested.
Word of warning though; as I'm currently working on an other project (which is going rather slow), I probably won't have time to work on this before Sep/Oct. Don't know if you have any urgent deadlines...

Regards, Sander
https://3dfort.wordpress.com

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der bunkermann
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Re: 4.7 cm Festungspak 36 (t) performance

Post by der bunkermann » 05 Jul 2019 17:42

Thanks so far guys!
Sander, thanks for the offer,
I will send you a PM on fortificatie forum.

Still open for additional info and drawings!

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Re: 4.7 cm Festungspak 36 (t) performance

Post by wimve » 08 Jul 2019 19:14

I thought the festungspack is already completly drawn in 3D by Harpoon aka Anders or otherwise by Scolty.

I used the model for my the Beer project.
The armour plate is in the BRV archive, Rotterdam, HvH, 250.
2628_021.jpg
Not the best immage but for the idea.
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Thanks,

Wim
www.petromax.nl
3D : http://www.petromax.nl/Hanstholm.html
http://www.petromax.nl/DeBeer.html

forttravel
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Re: 4.7 cm Festungspak 36 (t) performance

Post by forttravel » 08 Jul 2019 19:53


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