W-SS war crimes in Slovenia

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K.Kocjancic
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W-SS war crimes in Slovenia

Post by K.Kocjancic » 22 Apr 2003 21:41

I'm starting new thread of W-SS war crimes in Slovenia.

So far, I know about these crimes:
- on 17.1.'44 KWB burned part of village Lokev,
- on 8.5.'44 KWB executed one men. Next day they shot one women in burned houses (in houses burnes alive 15 people),
- on 15.2.'44 KWB burned two villages Kohem and Rihemberk,
- on 23.3.'44 KWB burned village of Predmeja. Same day they had burned 23 buildings and killed 2 men in Jagršče, 47 buildings and killed 4 men and one women in Šepreljke, burned down villages of Grič and Kal, burned down the barn and killed a man in Kjatumovš (they were really bussy that day)
- on 20.11.'44 II. Alarmkmp. Rann arested 20 people of Kolovrat. Some were executed immeditiatly, 6 were shot in Jan. '45, others were sent to Dachau.
- KWB had burned down village of Lipa in Čičarija with 263 villagers. This was the most mass war crime commited by W-SS in Slovenia.
- on 15.6.'44 KWB shot 5 people and then burned them in a barn.
- on 11.6.'44 KWB decapitated two captured Partisans with an axe.


Any others?

Regards,
Kocjo

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KWB

Post by Octavianus » 23 Apr 2003 11:43

Ave Kocjo,

- on 11.6.'44 KWB decapitated two captured Partisans with an axe.


But you failed to mention here what has happened to a group of SS-men several days before this incident? :wink:

Gratiam,

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Post by POW » 23 Apr 2003 14:09

The military tribunal in Nuremberg stated, that the guerilla war against the Germans was against international law. The partisans were not acting after the rules of war and had no right to be considered as prisoner of war. The Germans were allowed to take reprisals and as a last resort even hostages (civilians) may be shot. The military tribunal came in fist instance to the conclusion that in Jugoslavia was an excess of reprisals which couldn't be explained with the military necessity to keep the population quiet and peaceful.

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Post by K.Kocjancic » 23 Apr 2003 17:16

But you failed to mention here what has happened to a group of SS-men several days before this incident?


If I'm right (this is coming from my head), Partisans killed 2 SS-soldiers in the same way.

Is this correct?

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Kocjo

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Post by Krasnaya Zvezda » 23 Apr 2003 17:39

POW wrote:The military tribunal in Nuremberg stated, that the guerilla war against the Germans was against international law. The partisans were not acting after the rules of war and had no right to be considered as prisoner of war. The Germans were allowed to take reprisals and as a last resort even hostages (civilians) may be shot. The military tribunal came in fist instance to the conclusion that in Jugoslavia was an excess of reprisals which couldn't be explained with the military necessity to keep the population quiet and peaceful.


That is simply incorrect.
In Nuremberg such statments were not made. On treating the partisans and Geneve convention in Yugoslavia from Nuremberg trial
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-07/tgmwc-07-59-08.shtml


Should you care you can go to previous pages and next, you will find what tribunal thought on the treatments of partisans.

Besides, in the topic below, David Thompson corrected me when I made a similar statement. From Hague convention:

http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=19849&start=30

Check out the links he posted.

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Post by K.Kocjancic » 23 Apr 2003 19:28

Here is a link
http://images.volja.net/user_galleries/ ... 7_mnzs.jpg

to see a photo of decapitation of two captured Partisans with an axe, commited by W-SS (KWB).

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Post by POW » 24 Apr 2003 05:03

I have a book with the translation according to US military court Nr. V. I consider it as a reliable source. When using the link you posted I had to read in the first sentence regarding Yugoslavia: "Soldiers of the Yugoslav Army, captured by the German troops, ..." The military court stated very clear, that Yugoslavia had no regular army after the occupation. The Nizkor-page is trying to prove that the partizans were a regular army cause they were alleged "under military command and wearing recognizable military emblems and insignia". That is totally contrary to the statement of the military court. In my opinion the Nizkor-page is simply incorrect.

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Post by K.Kocjancic » 24 Apr 2003 06:16

POW wrote:
The military court stated very clear, that Yugoslavia had no regular army after the occupation.


That's not true. After the capitulation of Jugoslav army on 17.4.1941, a small group of (ex-)Jugoslav soldiers went underground. They were known as Četniki. They were recognized by Jugoslav guvermant in London. Their offical name was Jugoslav army in Homeland (Jugoslovanska vojska v domovini - JVvD). In 1943 this status was given to Partisans and Četniki became so called Axis force.

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Post by POW » 24 Apr 2003 11:08

Well, the documents I have here are saying, that the monarchistic Cetnici under command of Draza Mihailovic were no regular army. But I'm prett< sure, that if the military tribunal in Nuremberg had the information's Kocjo has, they had to come to an other conclusion. :o

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war crimes

Post by Octavianus » 24 Apr 2003 11:49

Ave amici,

That's not true. After the capitulation of Jugoslav army on 17.4.1941, a small group of (ex-)Jugoslav soldiers went underground. They were known as Četniki. They were recognized by Jugoslav guvermant in London. Their offical name was Jugoslav army in Homeland (Jugoslovanska vojska v domovini - JVvD).


Yes, Kocjo is right. The Royal Yugoslav Army indded signed a document of capitulation but small remnats of the army, mostly army officers, assembled on Ravna gora, a plateau southwest of Belgrade and continued at first with a sporadic resistance due to limited manpower and arms supply. They were officially recognized by the Allies and Royal Yugoslav Goverment-in-Exile as the Royal Yugoslav Army in Homeland, and furthermore Colonel (later General) Dragoljub "Draza" Mihailovich was even named for the Minister of War of the Royal Yugoslav Government-in-Exile and the Army Commander. Not until 1944, the Allies recognized Yugoslav partisans as an Allied fighting force.

cause they were alleged "under military command and wearing recognizable military emblems and insignia".


Actually this has often been controversial, but the fact remains that from late 1941 onwards majority partisans wore recognizable military emblem, thaat is a red star on the field cap and also the officers and non-commisioned officers wore special ranks which were worn on sleeves as a kind of armshield. In 1944, after taking of Belgrade and with forming of four armies, the issue of uniforms was even more emphasized, so in general all Yugoslav partisans were recognizable as combatants. What Germans could not recognize were local sympathizers and member sof the partisan underground in cities and villages, who, understandably, did not show off in uniforms.

Should you care you can go to previous pages and next, you will find what tribunal thought on the treatments of partisans.


Can someone pinpoint me those paragraphs of the Geneva Convention that are dealing with the treatment of guerilla combatants? I was looking for this for the last few minutes but I could not find it! Or did I look on a wrong aplace? :roll:

to see a photo of decapitation of two captured Partisans with an axe, commited by W-SS (KWB).


Thanks for the photos, Kocjo. Have already seen several of these gruesome examples in the Forgotten Legions: Obscure Combat Formations of the Waffen-SS, 1943-1945 !

If I'm right (this is coming from my head), Partisans killed 2 SS-soldiers in the same way. Is this correct?


I believe the number was higher than two. :|

The military tribunal in Nuremberg stated, that the guerilla war against the Germans was against international law. The partisans were not acting after the rules of war and had no right to be considered as prisoner of war. The Germans were allowed to take reprisals and as a last resort even hostages (civilians) may be shot. The military tribunal came in fist instance to the conclusion that in Jugoslavia was an excess of reprisals which couldn't be explained with the military necessity to keep the population quiet and peaceful.


Well, I haven't heard or read anything what would suggest that the guerilla war in Yugoslavia was against the international law, but I recall talking with a friend who has said that according to the international law it is allowed the occupation force to execute ten hostages if a high ranking official is assasinated or saomething like that. Don't know if this is true or not (I personally doubt it is) but it doesn't matter anyway as German troops, even this rule was in motion, repeatedly violated this starting from 1941 when they in just one day executed 7,000 people in Kragujevac as a reprisal for a death of two or (three) German soldiers who had been killed in a ambush the day before. It is a big difference in killing a group of hostages or in decimating an entire town.

Well, the documents I have here are saying, that the monarchistic Cetnici under command of Draza Mihailovic were no regular army.


As I said, Mihailovich was named for a minister in Royal, Yugoslav government in exile, a body that was recognized as a legitimate political body of Yugoslavia.

Gratiam,

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Post by POW » 24 Apr 2003 13:01

Last try! The adjudgement of the US military court says: The hearing of evidence made clear, that the gangs even could be considered as units like in a military organisation. But they had no standart uniform. They wore ordinary civilian clothes, sometimes German, Italian or Serbish uniform parts, as far they could get them. The Sovjet star was usually worn as an emblem. The adjudgement could not prove the fact, if the emblem could be seen from a far distance. The weapons were not shown, exept they had an advantage when doing so. There is an evidence that different groups of the resistance were under a central command like the partisans of Marshal Tito, the Cetnici of Draza Mihailovic and the EDES of General Zervas. It is apparent, that some single groups fulfilled the rules of warfare. However there is no evidence that the groups mentioned above fulfilled these rules. Of course that means, that captured members of these groups had no right to be treated as prisoner of war. The defendants can't be charged for the killing of the captured resistance fighters cause they were franctireurs.

So far about the "regular Yugoslavian army" like some people like to see it. The statement by the military court is very clear i.m.h. Besides that the judgement of the military court is a reliable source in my opinion cause it is above suspicion they tried to excuse the actions of the German troops. Since a judgment of the military tribunal was made in 1947/48, I see no basic necessity to judge this topic again in 2003 by some members of an internet forum.

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Post by Krasnaya Zvezda » 24 Apr 2003 13:36

POW wrote:Last try! The adjudgement of the US military court says: The hearing of evidence made clear, that the gangs even could be considered as units like in a military organisation. But they had no standart uniform. They wore ordinary civilian clothes, sometimes German, Italian or Serbish uniform parts, as far they could get them. The Sovjet star was usually worn as an emblem. The adjudgement could not prove the fact, if the emblem could be seen from a far distance. The weapons were not shown, exept they had an advantage when doing so. There is an evidence that different groups of the resistance were under a central command like the partisans of Marshal Tito, the Cetnici of Draza Mihailovic and the EDES of General Zervas. It is apparent, that some single groups fulfilled the rules of warfare. However there is no evidence that the groups mentioned above fulfilled these rules. Of course that means, that captured members of these groups had no right to be treated as prisoner of war. The defendants can't be charged for the killing of the captured resistance fighters cause they were franctireurs.

So far about the "regular Yugoslavian army" like some people like to see it. The statement by the military court is very clear i.m.h. Besides that the judgement of the military court is a reliable source in my opinion cause it is above suspicion they tried to excuse the actions of the German troops. Since a judgment of the military tribunal was made in 1947/48, I see no basic necessity to judge this topic again in 2003 by some members of an internet forum.


I do not want to divulge in lengthy discussion about what you are saying. Since I do not have the book you are mentioning, I would appreciate simple clarifications.

You yourself is saying that some groups met the criteria. What were those groups and if you can please tell us weather Germans treated them differently? I am not aware that any resistance was tolerated. We have multiple evidences Germans shooting civilians, in Kragujevac those were high school students 7000 of them in one day, I doubt any combatant would be spared given their brutality.

Second, partisans were mainly in the forest, I doubt any German venture there to check weather they had uniforms. During combat, most wore uniforms and insisted on it. As the war progress the uniform standardized. Now, if a guerilla is not in possession to make uniforms that is crime than? Also, they all wore red star as far as partisans go, and chetnicks kokarda ( I believe this is spelled right) I do not know how big it should be to be seen and from how far apart? I do not think they were putting red stars on the hat just so that they can not be seen.

Besides as far as uniforms go, one could clearly tell the difference between the partisans and chetnicks. All the photographs we have from that period show these resistance groups in uniforms, during battle everyone had uniform.

About hiding weapons: I do not understand, during battle they had weapons. In the forest they also had it. Where were they hiding the weapons? You think at daytime they were working as civilians and than at night as partisans? What is the definition of this as far as hiding weapons go. I believe the partisans in Yu were organized on similar principles as partisans in USSR, full job assignment in the forest.

In France was the same, yet the Germans also thought of them as illegal, the excuse being that France had signed peace with Germany after the capitulation so the resistance is illegal. All the best.

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Post by K.Kocjancic » 24 Apr 2003 13:36

The hearing of evidence made clear, that the gangs even could be considered as units like in a military organisation. But they had no standart uniform. They wore ordinary civilian clothes, sometimes German, Italian or Serbish uniform parts, as far they could get them. The Sovjet star was usually worn as an emblem. The adjudgement could not prove the fact, if the emblem could be seen from a far distance. The weapons were not shown, exept they had an advantage when doing so.


This goes for Partisans, but Četniki had emblem of regular Jugoslav army (eagle), they were a uniforms of ex Jugoslav army, they were using Serbian language as a commanding languange (even in Slovenia, because the commanding language in ex-Jugo army was Serbian), and so on, and on....

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Post by David Thompson » 24 Apr 2003 15:24

Octavianus -- Ave! The legal status of partisan formations are described in articles 1 and 2 of the Hague conventions of 1899 and 1907, on-line at:

Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907, Articles 1 and 2:
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawof ... 2.htm#art1 (1899)
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawof ... 4.htm#art1 (1907)

If the partisans are covered by the article 1 or article 2 definitions, they are lawful combatants.

The 1929 Geneva convention deals with the treatment of POWs, such as captured lawful combatants acting within the Hague convention definitions. You can find the text of the Geneva convention on-line at:

Geneva Convention of 1929
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawof ... 2.htm#art1

POW -- Who are the defendants in that US military tribunal proceeding you spoke of?

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Post by K.Kocjancic » 24 Apr 2003 15:43

OK, that's the deal? :?

I want to know about W-SS crimes in Slovenia, but about Den Haag's Conventions about war crimes. :wink:

We could start a new topic on Den Haag's Conventions. What say you?

BTW: German army didn't recognized any freedom fighters as regular army, but considered them as "Banditen". Do we all agree on this?

Regards,
Kocjo

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