Holocaust in Romania

Huckebein · Post by **Huckebein** » 02 May 2002 09:08

Today I came across this list:
http://www.nizkor.org/faqs/leuchter/leu ... aq-20.html
which places Romania on dishonorable 3rd on the list of atrocities against jews. I never thought that in my country died more than 20.000 jews, althought some sources brought this number to aprox. 100.000. Unfortunately, due to communist regime in Romania, no serious studies have taken place yet.

But to see this figure of over 500.000 simply astonishes me. Even in this list there is a huge discrepancy. In pre-war census there were 340.000 jews in Romania (incl Bessarabia, which is a very important note, maybe we will discuss it later), and after the war there were 530.000 jews missing!!! How one could explain that?

Please keep the discussion on topic.

prejo · Post by **prejo** » 02 May 2002 09:47

Huckebein, the figures speaks for themselves. The bulk of hebrew communities were localized on Moldavia, especially in Braila-Galati area because of the ports on Danube. I cannot provide you numbers as i don't have any right now. The attrocities against hebrews were conducted during the Iron Guard "regime" and it peaks with the murders and the fire set on hebrew's houses from Vacaresti St. in Bucharest and the killings from Abator (the slaughter house in Bucharest). But then were killed a few hundreds. Moreover lots of polish hebrews fled from Poland to Romania only because Romania was safer. So I think that the source mentioned haven't done its homework...

regards,
prejo

viriato · Post by **viriato** » 02 May 2002 10:36

The Romenian census of 1930 counted 984213 jews. Romania had a total of 18025037 inhabitants.

Huckebein · Post by **Huckebein** » 02 May 2002 10:43

viriato, can you provide us the source of your figures?
Because I never heard of an estimation higher than 500.000 (this is highest but very controversial).

prejo · Post by **prejo** » 02 May 2002 10:51

ok we got new figures. According to that it means that more than a half of hebrew community was exterminated during the war. Then I cannot explain why after this extermination in Romania still exists a big community, with sinagogues, hebrew theatre and so on. Still today after the massive exodus from Romania to Israel (in late 70's romanian was the third language spoken in Israel - and that means something) we have a lot of jews...

I agreed that jews were exterminated in Romania, I agreed that the regime was against them but I can't agree it was a such large scale extermination in Romania.
Maybe the gipsies were included in these figures too? I cannot say.
regards,
prejo

viriato · Post by **viriato** » 02 May 2002 11:09

My source is the Encyclopedia Italiana published in the late thirties.

Huckebein · Post by **Huckebein** » 02 May 2002 11:22

Thank you viriato.
Right now it is Orthodox Easter Holiday and I will visit my parents in law. Soon after this weekend, I will return with numbers and sources to confront them.

Ovidius · Post by **Ovidius** » 02 May 2002 17:16

[some of the things said here could have had unpleasant consequences]

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 03 May 2002 21:11

Huckenbein is right: there are no good studies of the Holocaust in Romania (well Bessarabia and Trans-Dnestra mostly). There are a few Jewish works, but many are biased. The figure of 500,000 is IMo very big. I have read about a possible 250,000. The majority of these were from Bessarabia and Trans-Dnestra. I will post more on this topic tommorow, when I will have the book available.

Roberto · Post by **Roberto** » 03 May 2002 21:30

Victor wrote:Huckenbein is right: there are no good studies of the Holocaust in Romania (well Bessarabia and Trans-Dnestra mostly). There are a few Jewish works, but many are biased. The figure of 500,000 is IMo very big. I have read about a possible 250,000. The majority of these were from Bessarabia and Trans-Dnestra. I will post more on this topic tommorow, when I will have the book available.

I just received a German book called Dimensionen des Völkermords, edited by German historian Wolfgang Benz, which contains a country-by-country assessment of Jewish losses and also has a chapter about Romania. I don't have it with me right now, but I'll have a look at it and report on the results next Monday.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 04 May 2002 11:19

According to the official statistics, in 1930 there were 728,115 ethnic-Jews in Romania. After the 1940 territorial losses these were divided in the following order:
Romania – 312,972
Hungary (NW Transylvania) – 138,917
USSR – bessarabia and N Bukovina - 275,419
Bulgaria (S Dobtuja) – 807

Against the Jews in the 1940 boundaries were issued prohibitive measures. However, they were not applied seriously, mostly because of the personal relationships between Romanians and Jews and the corruption. Antonescu himself assured dr. Filderman, one of the leaders of the Jewish community, that he had no intention to deport the ones in the “Old Kingdom”, on 19 October 1941. At the end of the war there were 292,149 Hebrews living in the “Old Kingdom”. The difference can be explained through natural deaths, emigration to Israel and a few hundred in pogroms (I have to research more on these and give an exact number).

The Bessarabian Jews are another matter. The minimum number of victims is 108,711 !!! Another estimate of 100,000 is thought to have retreated with the Red Army and another smaller figure (about 10,000) were deported by the Soviet authorities. Antonescu’s and others’ attitude towards the Bessarabian Jews was mainly the result of the attitude of a part of the Jewish community in the summer of 1940, when the territories were annexed by the SU. Of course this does not justify what happened, but I think it helps understand better why this terrible crime took place. Another 130,000 Jews in Trans-Dnestra proper were also murdered, thus rising the number of victims under Romanian jurisdiction at a minimum of 250,000!!!

The Transylvanian Jews are the responsibility of the Hungarian government. 131,641 were deported to Auschwitz, out of who 90,295 didn’t survive. About 7,000 managed to flee to Romania.

At the end of the war there were 355,972 remaining in Romania (this includes NW Transylvania, which was re-annexed). If we add to this figure an estimate of 215,000 that died and the 100,000 that fled in the USSR, we get about 58,000 whose fate is unaccounted for.

Ovidius · Post by **Ovidius** » 04 May 2002 12:06

Victor wrote:The Bessarabian Jews are another matter. The minimum number of victims is 108,711 !!! Another estimate of 100,000 is thought to have retreated with the Red Army and another smaller figure (about 10,000) were deported by the Soviet authorities. Antonescu’s and others’ attitude towards the Bessarabian Jews was mainly the result of the attitude of a part of the Jewish community in the summer of 1940, when the territories were annexed by the SU. Of course this does not justify what happened, but I think it helps understand better why this terrible crime took place. Another 130,000 Jews in Trans-Dnestra proper were also murdered, thus rising the number of victims under Romanian jurisdiction at a minimum of 250,000!!!

Just out where did you pull this number of 108,711 !?

~Ovidius

michael mills · Post by **michael mills** » 04 May 2002 16:23

These are the figures from "Dimension des Voelkermords" for Rumania (oh what joy, to be able to beat Mr Muehlenkamp to the punch!).

Rumaenien

1. Nordwestsiebenbuergen

1941 151,125
minus 1944 Deportierte 137,125

= Zurueckgebliebene 14,000
plus Heimgekehrte 44,000

= Ueberlebende 58,000

Opfer 90,295

2. Nordbukowina, Bessarabien, Herta-Distrikt

1930 275,419
minus 1941 in die UdSSR Deportierte 100,000

= Zurueckgeblieben 175,419
minus 1941 nach Transnistrien Dep. 109,000

= Zurueckgeblieben 66,419
minus Opfer in Rum. 49,419

= in Rum. Ueberlebender 17,000

Nach Transnstrien Deportierte 109,000
minus Zurueckgekehrte 54,500

= Opfer in Transnistria 54,500

Gesamtzahl Opfer aus diesen Gebieten 103,919
Gesamtzahl Ueberlebender in Rum. 71,500
Unbekannten Schicksals in UdSSR 100,000

3. Uebriges Rumaenien

1941 315,293
minus Opfer von Massakern/Pogromen 7,000

= 308,293
minus Deportierte 40,000

= Zurueckgebliebene 268,293
plus Heimgekehrte 30,000

= Ueberlebende 298,293

Gesamtzahl Opfer aus Rumaenien

Siebenbuergen 90,295
Nordbukowina, Bessarabien, Herta 103,919
Uebriges Rumaenien 17,000

Insgesamt 211,214

Roberto · Post by **Roberto** » 04 May 2002 18:45

michael mills wrote:These are the figures from "Dimension des Voelkermords" for Rumania (oh what joy, to be able to beat Mr Muehlenkamp to the punch!).

Rumaenien

1. Nordwestsiebenbuergen

1941 151,125
minus 1944 Deportierte 137,125

= Zurueckgebliebene 14,000
plus Heimgekehrte 44,000

= Ueberlebende 58,000

Opfer 90,295

2. Nordbukowina, Bessarabien, Herta-Distrikt

1930 275,419
minus 1941 in die UdSSR Deportierte 100,000

= Zurueckgeblieben 175,419
minus 1941 nach Transnistrien Dep. 109,000

= Zurueckgeblieben 66,419
minus Opfer in Rum. 49,419

= in Rum. Ueberlebender 17,000

Nach Transnstrien Deportierte 109,000
minus Zurueckgekehrte 54,500

= Opfer in Transnistria 54,500

Gesamtzahl Opfer aus diesen Gebieten 103,919
Gesamtzahl Ueberlebender in Rum. 71,500
Unbekannten Schicksals in UdSSR 100,000

3. Uebriges Rumaenien

1941 315,293
minus Opfer von Massakern/Pogromen 7,000

= 308,293
minus Deportierte 40,000

= Zurueckgebliebene 268,293
plus Heimgekehrte 30,000

= Ueberlebende 298,293

Gesamtzahl Opfer aus Rumaenien

Siebenbuergen 90,295
Nordbukowina, Bessarabien, Herta 103,919
Uebriges Rumaenien 17,000

Insgesamt 211,214

Thanks for saving me the work of transcribing the data. The source seems to be the table at the end of the chapter of Dimensionen des Völkermords on Romania, written by Krista Zach.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 05 May 2002 07:07

Ovidius wrote:
Just out where did you pull this number of 108,711 !?

~Ovidius

The figure is from Dinu C. Giurescu’s “Romania in al doilea razboi mondial”, Editura ALL Educational, 1999.
According to the 1930 statictics, there were 275,419 Jews in Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina. The next counting was done in September 1941. There were about 126,000. An estimate of 100,000 fled to the SU. So that leaves 49,419 missing Jews. In September 1943 there still alive 50,741. The number of the ones that died following the treatment they got was 59,292. If you add the two figures you get 108,711. I repeat, this is only a minimum number.

There is also the Gipsy problem. 24,617 were deported to Trans-Dnestra, that is 9,38% of the total number. 11,441 were nomads and 12,176 had convictions or had no occupation. About half of them died there.