Hungarian State/Civilian Police 1919-45

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KKND
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Hungarian State/Civilian Police 1919-45

Post by KKND » 13 Aug 2014 20:02

Hello,

I'm looking for any information on the state police in Hungary from 1919 - 45, books, articles, photos and webpages would all be of a great help. Im looking for things about uniforms, organization & ranks, what was their interactions with the Germans (or any any axis forces) and if they were involved with any war crimes.

The reason im looking for this information is that my Great Grandfather, who was from Vrbas was in the police from around 1919 until November 1944 (Vrbas was taken over by partisans and he was executed). Now Vrbas was part of Yugoslavia from 1919 to 1941 when Hungary took back control of the town but he remained in the the police after the annexation. From what family have told me and what i have seen on the internet, he was what could be called 'chief of police' for Vrbas. From photos i have posted on this forum iv been told he had the rank of Sergent, so if he was a Sergent would that be a high enough rank to be called 'chief of police' and if so what kind of duty's would the chief have? My guess is that its similar to chief constable that we have in the UK.

I have some photos and i will upload them later on once i scan them to the pc.

Thanks!

GregSingh
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Re: Hungarian State/Civilian Police 1919-45

Post by GregSingh » 17 Aug 2014 10:14

There seem to be a lot of information available about Royal Hungarian Gendarmerie (Magyar Királyi Csendőrség), web page
http://www.csendor.com is excellent.

Unfortunately not so about Royal Hungarian Police (Magyar Királyi Rendőrség).
They had their magazine - Magyar Rendőr - Magyar Királyi Rendőrség Szaklapja, but couldn't find a single copy, just some covers...

Had this photo, sorry don't remember a source, two sergeants there with identical uniforms as on this wonderful photo here:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6&t=209451
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GregSingh
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Re: Hungarian State/Civilian Police 1919-45

Post by GregSingh » 17 Aug 2014 10:31

Sándor Zeidler provided those pictures of collar patches for The Royal Hungarian State Police and the Royal Hungarian Police (not sure what the difference was) for NCO and enlisted ranks during 1922-44.
Royal Hungarian Police - collars.jpg
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KKND
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Re: Hungarian State/Civilian Police 1919-45

Post by KKND » 17 Aug 2014 15:11

Here are some photos i have.

4 Policemen
Image

3 Policemen and child wearing German cap
Image

A bit of everything: State Police, Gendarme and Levente Youth Members
Image

GregSingh
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Re: Hungarian State/Civilian Police 1919-45

Post by GregSingh » 18 Aug 2014 14:08

First photo was probably taken in front of Újverbász (Novi Vrbas) Town Hall not long after 1941. Here is another shot of the same area with Fire Brigade building and tower on the left. On the street corner - monument erected to commemorate return of Újverbász to Hungary on the 13th of April 1941. (Source: Arcanum Postcards).
Újverbász 1941.jpg
Third photo - do we know who's funeral it was or a date perhaps?
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GregSingh
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Re: Hungarian State/Civilian Police 1919-45

Post by GregSingh » 18 Aug 2014 14:48

According to József Parádi's article "The Hungarian State Civil Police 1867-1945", Gendarmerie and State Police operated within the same boundaries, which were consistent with Military District's borders (from 1939 they were Army Corps districts).
Újverbász was in District V - Szeged, in Ujvidék (Novi Sad) Region.
Below are records for Gendarmerie Post in Újverbász.
Újverbász 1942.jpg
Újverbász 1943.jpg
Újverbász 1944.jpg
P. - Post office, T. - Telegraph office, Vá - train station, Tel. - phone number, Kk. Kiskér Óverbász - villages in the area - Kiskér (Baĉko Dobro Polje) and Óverbász (Stari Vrbas), Pk. - Post Commandant - that might be our guy on the left in the third photo - is he comforting the widow?
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Last edited by GregSingh on 19 Aug 2014 00:34, edited 1 time in total.
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KKND
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Re: Hungarian State/Civilian Police 1919-45

Post by KKND » 18 Aug 2014 21:28

For the funeral photo, unfortunately there are no markings on the grave on the full photo. With the salutes and the fact the Gendarmerie are next to the grave im assuming it was a member of the Gendarmerie being buried. My guess for the date is 1942 as the Levente Youth members are only wearing their caps. In the photos i have they don't start wearing uniforms till mid/late 1943.

He is comforting the widow, how do you know he is the Pk? is it his rank or something on his uniform? Interestingly it mentions a member of the Gendarmerie called Kiss, in a letter from my Great Grandfather to my Grandfather he makes a mention of the Kiss family and how they are refusing the flee the town unless there is a military evacuation.

Also you are correct with the Town Hall photo, i have a few that feature the statue but not in full so thanks for posting that.

KKND
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Re: Hungarian State/Civilian Police 1919-45

Post by KKND » 18 Aug 2014 21:47

I found these two photos just looking on google. They were taken on 21 Jan 1942, in Novi Sad, any way of telling if they are police or gendarmerie? Maybe its just my eyes but im sure i a resemblance between the person in these photos and my great grand father, whats your thoughts?

Image
Image

GregSingh
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Re: Hungarian State/Civilian Police 1919-45

Post by GregSingh » 19 Aug 2014 03:06

He is comforting the widow, how do you know he is the Pk?
He has the highest rank - Törzsörmester (Sergeant Major). Here is his April 1942 photo from a Gendarmerie magazine. He was promoted to Tiszthelyettes (from 1944 called Fötörzsörmester)- one more star and got a medal - Magyar Bronz Érdemkeresztet.
15 April 1942.jpg
Interestingly it mentions a member of the Gendarmerie called Kiss, in a letter from my Great Grandfather to my Grandfather he makes a mention of the Kiss family and how they are refusing the flee the town unless there is a military evacuation.
Obviously as a Chief of Police he knew a Chief of Gendarmerie in the town. They were in the same boat in late 1944, I understand they both stayed and got killed after Serbian/Russian forces arrived...
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GregSingh
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Re: Hungarian State/Civilian Police 1919-45

Post by GregSingh » 19 Aug 2014 03:47

Maybe its just my eyes but im sure i a resemblance between the person in these photos and my great grand father, whats your thoughts?
There is a resemblance, I agree. His presence in the area at the time was probable as police, gendarmerie and military were called from all over the district. But it's all speculation at this point. Those Hungarians with their mustaches, all look the same. :)

Here is a list of accused from the December 1943 trial - Army and Gendarmerie officers. None from state police, even from Novi Sad itself.
Dec 1943 trial.jpg
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KKND
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Re: Hungarian State/Civilian Police 1919-45

Post by KKND » 19 Aug 2014 21:06

Obviously as a Chief of Police he knew a Chief of Gendarmerie in the town. They were in the same boat in late 1944, I understand they both stayed and got killed after Serbian/Russian forces arrived...
Yes my Great Grandfather was killed then, i assume Kiss was also killed then. In October (a month before the killings) my Great Grandfather wrote that (and this is translated to english so its not 100% accurate) the Post Officer, Exercise Officer, Conscription Officer and the Gendarmerie were packing up theirs and the polices (more implied than said) equipment up ready in case of attack. Apparently nothing was said to the public but rumors were going round that town that something what about to happen.
There is a resemblance, I agree. His presence in the area at the time was probable as police, gendarmerie and military were called from all over the district. But it's all speculation at this point. Those Hungarians with their mustaches, all look the same. :)
Yes! they did love a good mustache. Its really impossible to tell if it is him or not, i dont have any really good side on photos of him to make a comparsion, i guess its possible but who knows.
Here is a list of accused from the December 1943 trial - Army and Gendarmerie officers. None from state police, even from Novi Sad itself.
I seem to remember watching a documentary about Sandor Kepiro and the Novi Sad killings. I think it was "The Last Nazis" on BBC.

Its interesting that no state police are listed as articles i have read about it state that both the Gendarmerie and Police were present. I found an article the other day which i didn't read and thought i bookmarked it but it turns out didn't. I think it said something about that fact that no police were tried or accused of war crimes even though they were present, i will have to try and find it again.

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Keir
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Re: Hungarian State/Civilian Police 1919-45

Post by Keir » 21 Jul 2017 20:29

Levente-Jugende in formation in front of the Feldherrnhalle in Munich July 9, 1934 and the site today; even the paving stones remain unchanged!
Image

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