Some FACTS wanted

Discussions on Axis awards and decorations. Hosted by John G & William Kramer.
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Matt Gibbs
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Some FACTS wanted

Post by Matt Gibbs » 02 May 2002 15:36

This is an invite for someone to post some knowlege that I seek! Its a badge thats a pet interest of mine although I don't own one and I'd need a lot more knowlege than I have now!
I assume the first manufacturer of the Anti Partisan Badge was Juncker..??
When did they stop making them..? I recall reading there was an air raid which put them out of action...? Who took over the making of these badges. Does anyone know...???
Regards

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Macmedal
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Post by Macmedal » 02 May 2002 20:28

Read the recent thread on the Anti Partisan Badge there is some good info (especially form Mr Stump), that is before the kids threw their teddies in the corner again and spoilt it.

I dont think anyone knows who produced the second type of semi hollow backed award.

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Matt Gibbs
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Cheers!

Post by Matt Gibbs » 02 May 2002 22:57

Thanks Mac, but i already looked up the recent thread and got so fed up trawling through the mudslinging and in fighting I got out of the childrens backyard and thought I would post my own question - thanks though!
I guess we'll never know who made the other awards then.....
Perhaps I'll start a few letters off to surviving badge makers to find out some more facts. Anyone got a list of makers still in existence and their addresses..>????
Regards :D

Ron Birch
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Post by Ron Birch » 06 May 2002 01:12

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/war_bad ... ge.htm[url]

See if you can obtain some info from this.[/url]

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Post by Paddy Keating » 06 May 2002 02:37

To summarise what is known and generally accepted about the Anti-Partisan Warfare Badge, the only war badge that can really be described as a Waffen-SS/Police award, although Heer, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine personnel were eligible for it too:

Introduced on January 30 1944 by Adolf Hitler, the badge was manufactured by the Berlin firm of C E Juncker but never had any form of maker's mark. Two types have been identified: the solid-backed or 'massive' version and the semi-hollow version. There were three classes: Bronze, Silver and Gold. Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler subsequently reserved the right to award the Gold class personally.

Some sources suggest that the badge was produced in tombak, a bronze-like alloy, and also in feinzink. The only examples I have seen that were recognised as original, wartime pieces made by C E Juncker have all been feinzink with the appropriate finish applied as a form of bronze, silver or gold 'wash'. Think in terms of run-of-the-mill Close Combat Badges of the mid to late-war period, struck in zinc. Even the CCC in Gold was, in its basic form, a gold-washed zinc badge. Of course, the special, cased presentation CCC in Gold as awarded personally by Adolf Hitler was of a far higher quality and is extremely rare, hence the stratospheric prices.

Most of the original APWBs in collections are essentially zinc-coloured, the metal having absorbed the cheap finish over the past six decades. They have flat or needle pins with hinge and hook assemblies typical of C E Juncker products of this period. And they are of fine quality, no matter what any con artist might try to tell you about "late-war lack of quality". Any lack of quality in late war 3rd Reich awards is usually limited to the base metal and final finish, not the striking of the piece.

C E Juncker probably manufactured the APWB in small production runs. A typical minimum production run would have been five-hundred pieces. Of each run, the majority would logically have been finished as Bronze class badges, followed by Silver and then a few Gold. The award regulations issued by Himmler's office on February 1 1944 state that twenty days were required for the Bronze, fifty for Silver and a hundred days for Gold. For flying personnel, however, the required combat days were thirty, seventy-five and one-hundred-and-fifty respectively.

One hundred combat days, as any combat veteran will tell you, represents an enormous tally. A "combat day" or "kampftag" is not a day spent sitting in a rear area picking one's nose. It is a day spent on operations, close to or at risk from the enemy. A hundred combat days, even in partisan-ridden areas like Russia and Yugoslavia, represents the best part of a year.

So...there wasn't a lot of call for the Bandenkampfabzeichen in Gold until the end of 1944, when the first four qualifying recipients were advised that they had won it. Reichsführer-SS Himmler insisted upon making the awards personally and duly did so on February 15 1945. It is most likely that tombak or bronze was used by C E Juncker for a small-scale production run of these 'deluxe' Gold class badges, especially if these were ordered specifically by the Reichsführer-SS's office for personal award by Himmler to recipients. They were probably gilded, perhaps even fire-gilded, with additional touches such as a gun-blued swordblade, the sword, incidentally, of the Germanic hero Siegfried. Zinc is not a good base for high-quality gilding or chemical blueing. Known original Gold APWBs in serious collections are the gold-washed zinc type. 99% of people have never seen one of these RF-SS presentation pieces.

As for the Bandenkampfabzeichen in Gold mit Brillanten, several sources state that twenty of these were produced and there are two examples that are regularly touted about the place as originals. Some say that the Bandenkampfabzeichen in Gold mit Brillanten were struck - operative word here: struck - by C E Juncker in fire-gilded .800 silver. The pins were ungilded and Siegfried's swordblade was, like the "RF-SS Gold badges", blued. The sunwheel swastika was set with rosecut diamonds, a form of cutting discontinued after WW2. Others claim that the Diamond APWBs were merely RF-SS presentation badges in gilded tombak or bronze with diamonds added. Whatever the case, the Bandenkampfabzeichen in Gold mit Brillanten was never awarded.

By the time Himmler made the first awards of the Gold APWB, the Juncker factory had been out of action for a couple of months, having been bombed-out in December 1944. The identity of the firm commissioned to produce APWBs once the comparitively small stock started running out, perhaps by March 1945, remains unknown. It is generally believed that the so-called 2nd Type APWBs were produced in small numbers by casting, using original C E Juncker badges as patterns. These APWBs may have been cast in bronze as zinc is quite hard to work with. There are late-war APWBs in collections that are said and even believed to be original but for obvious reasons, this is a variation best avoided unless you have some form of provenance. And even then... Remember those tales of Ritterkreuzträger selling their RKs to collectors...several times over?

It's a 'difficult' badge. Which is what makes it perfect for forgers, fakers and bent dealers. And as a lot of the records and files either went up in smoke when Juncker was bombed or disappeared into American or Soviet storage, hard evidence remains impossible to find. As for how to tell originals apart from fakes: that would take much longer and I intend to go to bed but there are others wandering through here who know far more I do about this.

8)

PK

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Matt Gibbs
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Thanks

Post by Matt Gibbs » 06 May 2002 13:18

Cheers for the reply and the info link to Wehr.Awards. I shall keep on hunting. Anyone know if Steinhauer and Luck are still in buisness..???
Regards

rkoy
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yes

Post by rkoy » 06 May 2002 15:29

from what ive read on other forums the firm is still alive and kicking!

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Post by Ron Birch » 07 May 2002 03:01

Rodney is right on that......just don't go and aske about WW2 badges..no answeres from what I understand, at least from the Knights Cross.

Bjorn
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Post by Bjorn » 07 May 2002 03:44

S & L is still in business.

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Matt Gibbs
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Touchy

Post by Matt Gibbs » 07 May 2002 14:43

Perhaps S&L are a bit touchy about their previous employment in producing badges of the third reich. Shame really, the whole of that part of society from that age seems to have a built in fear of hate from other people, including historians. They probably burned all their archives too no doubt...shame.
Anyone have their address..???
Regards

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Matt Gibbs
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Oops

Post by Matt Gibbs » 07 May 2002 15:02

http://www.steinlueck.de/

This link goes to the S&L website - the firm is obviously still going strong. I'm going to see if I get a reply from them!
:o
Regards

Ron Birch
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Post by Ron Birch » 08 May 2002 02:59

I you get a responce to an question about ww2 produced badges I would be pleasantly surprised. But since you are going to ask a question why not ask about the flaw in the KC if they were pre May 1945. Now that is an answer I would like to see :mrgreen:

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Matt Gibbs
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Questions

Post by Matt Gibbs » 08 May 2002 06:59

At the moment I am going to approach them by letter about the badges they produced in general. We shall see what occurs. I assume you have contacted them yourself about the KC Ron..??? What happened..??
Regards

Ron Birch
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Post by Ron Birch » 08 May 2002 09:38

No I haven't, there is a thread going in Wehrmacht forum about the S&L KC. Some of the thoughts to find the answer was to ask the company about it and several memebers rang in with thier experience with the company. One member made a visit to the company and explained how nice and helpful they were untill asked about the WW2 item. The wall of silence is the norm on these issue's. At least the KC.

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Matt Gibbs
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Thansk for the info

Post by Matt Gibbs » 08 May 2002 12:38

I expect no less, un fortunately... Anyone want to volunteer to qrite a history of this famous badge maker from the 1880's to date - that way hopefully someone can get a look in the archives - if they haven't been destroyed already!!
Regards

Matt G

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