Halsey at Leyte Gulf 1944

Discussions on WW2 in the Pacific and the Sino-Japanese War.
User avatar
clifford13
Member
Posts: 94
Joined: 02 Oct 2013 21:56
Location: Summersville, West Virginia

Re: Halsey at Leyte Gulf 1944

Post by clifford13 » 13 Jun 2016 08:03

Fortunately, by 1944, our dispersal wasn't a disaster,the way Japan's was in '42. However...it was a near run thing.

"Where is TF 30.8 ? Ozawa wonders."

Delta Tank
Member
Posts: 2512
Joined: 16 Aug 2004 01:51
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Halsey at Leyte Gulf 1944

Post by Delta Tank » 13 Jun 2016 13:16

clifford13 wrote:3 rd. Fleet was just being asked to multi-task WAY too much. And it ended up a mirror image of Midway...

https://www.facebook.com/notes/clifford ... 8908246423
Did Halsey think he was being asked to do too much? Obviously Nimitz did not believe so or he would not of given him so many tasks. I don't have the time line on hand at the moment, but within days of the operation starting Halsey sent a very large portion of his available aircraft carriers off to refuel and they never really got back in the fight, ie he divided his fleet during a battle, but later on he refused to leave a destroyer to watch San Benardino Strait because he did not want to divide his fleet!

Halsey's orders (tasks)
Nimitz directed him to "cover and support" SWPA forces "in order to assist in the seizure of all objectives in the Central Philippines", and to "destroy enemy naval and air forces in or threatening the Philippines area."
"In case opportunity for destruction of major portion of the enemy fleet is offered or can be created, such destruction becomes the primary task"

So Halsey had two tasks? or one task? I don't think he had too many tasks, and depending on how you read the tasks they overlap, the problem was that Halsey did not engage his brain and made a rash decision and because of his command style no one challenged him on his decision, reminded him of all his responsibilities, explained the larger picture, talked to him man to man. What was the command climate in the 3d Fleet? The Navy gave him a staff to help him, to relieve some of the pressure of command, to give him information and advice before he made a decision, and to give their opinion on the decision.

More here:http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3&t=191079

Mike

User avatar
clifford13
Member
Posts: 94
Joined: 02 Oct 2013 21:56
Location: Summersville, West Virginia

Re: Halsey at Leyte Gulf 1944

Post by clifford13 » 13 Jun 2016 14:01

He had 3....A] Direct air support for the landings themselves
B] protect the 7 th. fleet AND the fleet supply train [ TG 30.8, the tankers]
[Technically, 4 given the wide spacing involved here...]
C] hunt and destroy the Enemy fleet if they came out.],
so he had to be in a position roughly 100 miles off the coast of Leyte, AND 300 miles East of Luzon, AND off cape Egano, all at the same time....

Orders had been drawn up in conjunction with MAcArthur's staff prior.
After the battle, MacArthur had said of the debate: "Leave that man alone, he fights." to his staff.
One person, at least, had an idea of the difficulties..
Last edited by clifford13 on 13 Jun 2016 14:22, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
clifford13
Member
Posts: 94
Joined: 02 Oct 2013 21:56
Location: Summersville, West Virginia

Re: Halsey at Leyte Gulf 1944

Post by clifford13 » 13 Jun 2016 14:07

Given there were 6 japanese task groups at sea at one point, [ Shima's group had split, as did Ozawa's mobile force], It's a bit more complicated at the scene than us "Armchair admirals" would care to admit, especially in days before all the advances in electronics we enjoy today..

User avatar
clifford13
Member
Posts: 94
Joined: 02 Oct 2013 21:56
Location: Summersville, West Virginia

Re: Halsey at Leyte Gulf 1944

Post by clifford13 » 13 Jun 2016 14:16

I firmly believe that, given his orders, Halsey's command would have been better off consisting of Tg 38.1 and 38.2, consisting only of the large fleet carriers, and a subordinate been placed in command of tg 58.3 and 58.4 with the Independence class CVL's.. 5 fleet could then be detached to cover the landing beaches with air support and point defense with it's escorting bb's and cruisers, covering orders part A and B, while 3 rd. fleet can set about hunting the Japanese fleet, covering part C of the orders.

User avatar
clifford13
Member
Posts: 94
Joined: 02 Oct 2013 21:56
Location: Summersville, West Virginia

Re: Halsey at Leyte Gulf 1944

Post by clifford13 » 13 Jun 2016 14:25

You needed planes
A] Over Leyte
B] over 7 fleet
C] Over tg 30.8's tankers
D] hitting Ozawa
E] Hitting Kurita....

'nuff said.

OpanaPointer
Financial supporter
Posts: 5659
Joined: 16 May 2010 14:12
Location: United States of America

Re: Halsey at Leyte Gulf 1944

Post by OpanaPointer » 13 Jun 2016 14:29

clifford13 wrote:3 rd. Fleet was just being asked to multi-task WAY too much. And it ended up a mirror image of Midway...

https://www.facebook.com/notes/clifford ... 8908246423
"3rd Fleet" was always on the charge. Even when it was "7th Fleet".
Come visit our sites:
hyperwarHyperwar
World War II Resources

Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.

User avatar
clifford13
Member
Posts: 94
Joined: 02 Oct 2013 21:56
Location: Summersville, West Virginia

Re: Halsey at Leyte Gulf 1944

Post by clifford13 » 13 Jun 2016 14:56

uh, huh. Not arguing that. fact is, designating specific jobs for specific commands focuses the attention on the particular objective wonderfully. That IS why they are called a Task group...

User avatar
clifford13
Member
Posts: 94
Joined: 02 Oct 2013 21:56
Location: Summersville, West Virginia

Re: Halsey at Leyte Gulf 1944

Post by clifford13 » 13 Jun 2016 15:00

Really interested in getting some 1/2400 scale ship models and running this as a scenario...

User avatar
clifford13
Member
Posts: 94
Joined: 02 Oct 2013 21:56
Location: Summersville, West Virginia

Re: Halsey at Leyte Gulf 1944

Post by clifford13 » 13 Jun 2016 15:15

7 fleet's escort carriers [ 16 with 20 aircraft each] could be left to cover the landing areas, and point defence. 5 fleet [ in this case Tg 8.3 and 8.4] with the Independances and a few surface combatants, could deal with Kurita and Shima's second force [ 5 destroyer transports , or APD's, 1 CA 1 Cl 1 dd as escorts] , while tf 38.1 and .2 cover Ozawa's gang, [ both the carriers and the detached battlegroup] to the north.

Basically, you define your 'Zone of control" that way.It also frees up Tf 38 for an end run around Northern Luzon and down the west coast of the Phillipenes, effectivly trapping Kurita between 3 flt [ west ] 5 fleet [North east] and 7 fleet [ South east] . Bye Bye Yamato....

Delta Tank
Member
Posts: 2512
Joined: 16 Aug 2004 01:51
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Halsey at Leyte Gulf 1944

Post by Delta Tank » 13 Jun 2016 16:08

Clifford13
Where did the 5th Fleet come from? They are not mentioned in anything I have read on Leyte Gulf. There was the 3d Fleet and the 7th Fleet.

Mike

OpanaPointer
Financial supporter
Posts: 5659
Joined: 16 May 2010 14:12
Location: United States of America

Re: Halsey at Leyte Gulf 1944

Post by OpanaPointer » 13 Jun 2016 16:09

Delta Tank wrote:Clifford13
Where did the 5th Fleet come from? They are not mentioned in anything I have read on Leyte Gulf. There was the 3d Fleet and the 7th Fleet.

Mike
Wasn't 5th the amphibs?
Come visit our sites:
hyperwarHyperwar
World War II Resources

Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.

Delta Tank
Member
Posts: 2512
Joined: 16 Aug 2004 01:51
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Halsey at Leyte Gulf 1944

Post by Delta Tank » 13 Jun 2016 16:14

Crap! I don't know!? I thought it was 3d Fleet when under Halsey and the same ships were called the 5th Fleet when under Spurance(?). Or am I confused?

Mike

OpanaPointer
Financial supporter
Posts: 5659
Joined: 16 May 2010 14:12
Location: United States of America

Re: Halsey at Leyte Gulf 1944

Post by OpanaPointer » 13 Jun 2016 16:46

Delta Tank wrote:Crap! I don't know!? I thought it was 3d Fleet when under Halsey and the same ships were called the 5th Fleet when under Spurance(?). Or am I confused?

Mike

The Fifth Fleet was initially established during World War II on 26 April 1944 from the Central Pacific Force under the command of Admiral Raymond Spruance. Central Pacific Force was itself part of Pacific Ocean Areas. The ships of the Fifth Fleet also formed the basis of the Third Fleet, which was the designation of the "Big Blue Fleet" when under the command of Admiral William F. Halsey, Jr..[N 1] Spruance and Halsey would alternate command of the fleet for major operations, allowing the other admiral and his staff time to prepare for the subsequent one. A secondary benefit was confusing the Japanese into thinking that they were actually two separate fleets as the fleet designation flipped back and forth.

While operating under Spruance's command as the Fifth Fleet, the fleet took part in the Gilbert and Marshall Islands campaign of November 1943-February 1944, the Mariana Islands campaign of June–August 1944, the Iwo Jima campaign of February–March 1945, and the Okinawa campaign of April–June 1945. During the course of these operations, it conducted Operation Hailstone (a major raid against the Japanese naval base at Truk) in February 1944, defeated the Imperial Japanese Navy in the Battle of the Philippine Sea in June 1944, and blunted the Japanese Operation Ten-Go – sinking the Japanese battleship Yamato in the process – in April 1945.

The British Pacific Fleet operated as Task Force 57 of the Fifth Fleet from March 1945 until May 1945. Halsey then relieved Spruance of command and the British ships, like the rest of the Fifth Fleet, were resubordinated to the Third Fleet, in which the British Pacific Fleet operated as Task Force 37 through the end of the war in August 1945.

The Fifth Fleet's next major combat operation would have been Operation Olympic, the invasion of Kyushu in the Japanese Home Islands, scheduled to begin on 1 November 1945, during which it would have operated simultaneously with the Third Fleet for the first time. The end of the war made this operation unnecessary, and the Fifth Fleet did not return to combat after May 1945, its ships remaining under the Third Fleet's operational control through the end of hostilities.
Come visit our sites:
hyperwarHyperwar
World War II Resources

Bellum se ipsum alet, mostly Doritos.

steverodgers801
Member
Posts: 1147
Joined: 13 Aug 2011 18:02

Re: Halsey at Leyte Gulf 1944

Post by steverodgers801 » 13 Jun 2016 18:38

I wonder if Halsey had been relieved of command for the two losses of ships from typhoon if Spruance would have been rotated back in command early

Return to “WW2 in the Pacific & Asia”