Hunting the old men.

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Dan Feltmate
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Hunting the old men.

Post by Dan Feltmate » 02 May 2002 22:26

A former Nazi corporal has been arrested in Canada under an extradition warrant from Italy.

Michael Seifert, who is 73, was convicted in absentia as a Nazi war criminal and sentenced to life imprisonment by an Italian court last November.


Read More!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/ ... 964849.stm

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Michael Miller
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Actions have consequences...

Post by Michael Miller » 03 May 2002 14:19

So- is it okay for young men to torture and murder old men, but not to be punished for it when they reach a certain age? Do you believe in a statute of limitations for murder?

On a side note, this is an unusual case- if he's 73 now, he was born in 1929 (or in '28 at the earliest). In other words, only 16 when the war ended. Very young to be a "corporal" (SS-Rottenführer, if they've id'd his rank properly) or to be in the SS at all. I hope the prosecution has considered this and that they're certain they have the right man.

Best wishes,
~ Mike Miller

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Schmauser
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Post by Schmauser » 03 May 2002 15:05

There have been many old men who are still being tried for war crimes, somtimes justice is served and other times their health problems prevent them from ever facing the due process of the law. These chaps are still being processed.

Julius Viel
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1258000/1258466.stm

Ferdinand Hammer
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_676000/676920.stm

Anton Malloth
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1359000/1359526.stm

Konrad Kalejs
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_589000/589304.stm

~Regards Schmauser

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Annelie
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Post by Annelie » 03 May 2002 15:13

In Canada (just my opinion) it seems that it is up to the defendent to prove
in these cases whether they have the right person or not. Yes, actions have consequences but ?

One does have to wonder why if the math and information is correct
why this push more in Canada that they go after these people ?
Shouldn't they go after bigger fish than these?
How about the Russians? Anyone looking for them?
And, one wonders why after all these years since I believe all
these people have been basically easy to find why now?

Curious
Annelie

tonyh
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re

Post by tonyh » 03 May 2002 15:30

>>Michael Seifert, who is 73, was convicted in absentia...<<

"in absentia". This is the most worrying aspect. Somebody being convicted without actually being able to defend himself? Bloody hell!

And Annalie is correct. It does seem to place the burden of proof upon the accused rather than the prosecution.

Tony

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ziggy wiseman
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siefert-war criminal

Post by ziggy wiseman » 03 May 2002 16:09

Here are more precisions on this case:His real name is Misha Seifert.When he came to Canada in 1951,he gave false informations about his birth.He is now 77 and is accuse of 18 murders commited in 1944-45.
(sources-agence france press,(Rome)apr.18 2002)

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ziggy wiseman
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siefert

Post by ziggy wiseman » 26 May 2002 23:50

Misha Siefert had been released by Canadian autorities yesterday(25th).He his now a "free" man.(again)

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Annelie
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Siefert and Gorshkow?

Post by Annelie » 27 May 2002 01:53

The Justice Department in US asked a court to revoke the citizenship of Estonian born Michael Gorshkow this week.

Ziggy Wiseman wrote
Misha Siefert has been released by Canadian authorities yesterday (25th)
He is now a "free" man. (again)



[/code]

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ziggy wiseman
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siefert

Post by ziggy wiseman » 27 May 2002 11:55

Annelie,who is Michael Gorshkow?Is he detained in U.S.?

regards!

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Annelie
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Post by Annelie » 27 May 2002 13:46

Ziggy:

Michael Gorshkow is or was living in Panama City, Florida? The (US) federal government asked a court to have his citizenship revoked. If or where he is detained I am not aware.

I am assuming that now Mr. Gorshkow must prove the
(ALLEGED) crime untrue. I don't understand how they can ask for deportation until (alleged) is proven?

Annelie

ps. isn't it amazing that NOW after all this time they find alleged criminals.
Where were they since l945? What is the agenda?

Northwood
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Re: Actions have consequences...

Post by Northwood » 27 May 2002 20:58

Michael Miller wrote:So- is it okay for young men to torture and murder old men, but not to be punished for it when they reach a certain age? Do you believe in a statute of limitations for murder?


Yep, i do.

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HaEn
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old men

Post by HaEn » 28 May 2002 04:25

Although I am now one of these "old men", and firmly do believe that at some time one has to pay the piper if there is any payment due, my problem with the current goings on is that normally a person in the U.S, is innocent until proven guilty. When the I.N.S. or the N.S.A (or for that matter the I.R.S.) come into the picture though, one is guilty until one can prove himself innocent. This hunt has in my opinion little to do with "finally catching the criminals", as it has to do with publicity for the hunters who are scraping the bottom of the barrel, to keep their funding alive. "Lookie we got another one ! ain't we great ?". :lol: Most of these "old men" do not have the finances available to avail themselves of good legal council, so . . . . . :( Oh well. As my Jiddisher gramma used to say: "if you don't have anything to hide, you don't have to fear the police"; was she ever wrong. Regards HN.

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MadJim
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Post by MadJim » 28 May 2002 05:39

I am assuming that now Mr. Gorshkow must prove the
(ALLEGED) crime untrue. I don't understand how they can ask for deportation until (alleged) is proven?

Annelie

ps. isn't it amazing that NOW after all this time they find alleged criminals.
Where were they since l945? What is the agenda?


Thats simple. In the US a special law was made (I believe in 1977) This law which was attached to immigration bill dealing with South Vietnamese refugees - singled out anyone that served the Nazi regime in anyway. This law and its apparatus applies ONLY to "nazis" and not to any other group such as the NKVD, SAVAK, etc. The law was written by two Jewish Congress people : Joshua Eilberg (who was sent to federal prison for corruption) and Elizabeth Holzman (not relected).

What makes this law so insideous is that this US Govt agency SUES the individual in question. Since it is a civil matter - the defendant is NOT entitled to a lawyer if destitute - if he has no lawyer - he just loses by default. He is then stripped of US citizenship AND his Social Security Pension that HE paid into his whole working career. He is then deported.
Even if they manage to fend off the allegations - they are usually financially ruined - their life savings consumed by lawyers fees.
When Communists ruled the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe - this deportation order was a defacto death penalty. (Most of them seem to be from countries occupied by the Soviets during the war)

The usual technicality for the court action is that the emigre in question did not state thay they were members of the Waffen SS or any other SS organization. So if you were press ganged into the wehrmacht and then transferred to the Waffen SS - your screwed.

One man I know that was stripped of his citizenship was a 17 year old (not an adult according to US law)draftee - (from Slovakia)who had at one point deserted-who immigrated to the US in the '50's. Even though his grandmother was an American citizen and the govt could not produce the document he supposedly forged - it was "goodbye Hans" nonetheless.

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Annelie
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Post by Annelie » 28 May 2002 10:27

Thankyou MadJim:


This is the first time anyone has explained how this all can take place.
Not exactly on the up and up. Considering now that <<. The law was written by two Jewish Congress people : Joshua Eilberg (who was sent to federal prison for corruption)>>one would think that someone in the Justice Department should have another look at this particular law and maybe revise its implemtation. It does seem unconstituental and cannot understand how this got legistated.

I understand that in Canada in the forties and fifties one was not asked about involvement in such and one only answered questions put to them and did not voluntered other information. I am assuming their interests (gov.) lay in only knowing of involvement in communism. I feel sorry for "Hans" and hope that his future was better than he expected.

That leaves one question which I would like to know. Why now and is it as HaEn says their is no one left and they are scrapping the bottom of the barrel? AND who are "THEY". To know whom they are we could then question their motives and objectives before this continues to go on and on.


Thankyou again Jim, very interesting!

Annelie

ps. Could all this be about "money"

Ovidius
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Re: Actions have consequences...

Post by Ovidius » 28 May 2002 11:08

Michael Miller wrote:So- is it okay for young men to torture and murder old men, but not to be punished for it when they reach a certain age? Do you believe in a statute of limitations for murder?


You see, my dear Mr. Miller, there is a law provision on most crimes, that the search is ended after a number of years equal to the punishment(i.e. 20 years or so for assasination etc) At least, these are the legal provisions in Romania. However, since the moment our dear friends from the UN were so kind to improve our laws(about the 1950s or so), this doesn't apply to "crimes against humanity". Therefore, while a killer, drug smuggler, even traitor, can escape the punishment if he/she hides himself/herself enough time, "someone" charged with any sort of "crime against humanity" can be sentenced anytime - even after 100 years, if he/she lives so long. Frightful, isn't it? 8)

HaEn wrote:As my Jiddisher gramma used to say: "if you don't have anything to hide, you don't have to fear the police"; was she ever wrong.


With all due respect, Sir, in this case the old lady was wrong. Because these kind of penal research and trials do not fall under common law, but more under Murphy's Laws, somehow like Franz Kafka's Trial. 8)

~Best regards,

Ovidius

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