Found: Raketenwasserbombenwerfer RWB 600 U

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Asbjørn
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Found: Raketenwasserbombenwerfer RWB 600 U

Post by Asbjørn » 02 Dec 2014 23:19

A very special weapon that seems to be unknown to the Internet was found a few years back in Norway, and has now been saved by "Rogaland Krigshistoriske Museum" near Stavanger, Norway.

The parts were identified after Erik E found a report in the Norwegian national archive. It was written by a Norwegian police officer who was describing a weapon that Admiralty ordered shipped to England in 1946. The report contains several pictures that match the parts we saved perfectly.

The weapon is based on a modified "Schwere Ladungswerfer", it was modified to allow firing of rocket propelled depth charges. The barrel had a basket on the end where a standard size depth charge would lay, the rocket engine would go in the 21 cm caliber barrel.

The name of the weapon was unknown to us untill I found this in Waffen Revue no. 116:
IMG_6816.JPG
The picture below is from the police officers report, see how it differs from the Schwere Ladungswerfer below it:
IMG_9804s.jpg
IMG_9822ms.jpg
Here's a couple of pictures of the parts we saved, they could not be assembled properly due to heavy rust:
IMG_6980s.jpg
IMG_6874s.jpg
So far we have confirmed that at least two of these weapons were deployed in Norway, one in Stavanger and one in Egersund. A possible third in Bergen, but this has yet to be confirmed.
In both confirmed locations, the weapon was placed on land next to submarine nets protecting the harbour entrances.

Do any of you gurus out there have any more information or pictures of these weapons or ammunition?
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Looking for the following, original or copy, any language:

Renault FT-17 - Manual and parts list
Somua MCG5 - Manual
Panzer III or StuG III - Manual and parts list
8,8 cm Flak 36 - Parts list and electrical diagram
150 cm Scheinwerfer G150K - Manual

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Natter
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Re: Found: Raketenwasserbombenwerfer RWB 600 U

Post by Natter » 03 Dec 2014 12:25

Another thread in here:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&t=174593

See also this thread, with a photo of three RAG's at Agdenes, were the Rwb 600 is in the background:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0&t=117259

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Natter
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Re: Found: Raketenwasserbombenwerfer RWB 600 U

Post by Natter » 03 Dec 2014 12:39

Asbjørn wrote:The weapon is based on a modified "Schwere Ladungswerfer".
A different variant of the original "Schwere Ladungswerfer" is shown in "Small Arms, and special Artilery Weapon of the Third Reich" - T. Gander & P. Chamberlain, 1978 (also available in german: "Enzyklopädie deutscher Waffen 1939-1945 - Handwaffen, Artillerie, Beutewaffen, Sonderwaffen"):

Designation: 38cm sLdgW
Manufacturer: Rheinmetall-Borsig AG
# produced: 360

Total weight: 1600kg
Traverse: 360°
Elevation: +37° til +85°
Velocity: 107m/s
Lenght of barrel: 1680mm
Range: 1000m

Grenade: 38cm Wurfgranate 40*
Weight of grenade: 149kg*
Charge: 50kg*
Fuze: Wgr. Z 36 (standard fuze for german mortargrenades)*
Ignitor: Zdlg. C/98 Np. (pentritt)*
Propellent: Gudol (stage I 385g / stage II 175g)*

* Further description of the grenades can be found in "Waffen Revue" No.15
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Last edited by Natter on 03 Dec 2014 16:59, edited 1 time in total.

Asbjørn
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Re: Found: Raketenwasserbombenwerfer RWB 600 U

Post by Asbjørn » 03 Dec 2014 16:53

Thank you Natter, but that seems to be a regular "Schwere Ladungswerfer", a Heer weapon from 1941. The weapon I'm talking about was developed for the Kriegsmarine in 1944 and went in to production in 1945. It fires depth charges, not RTGs, Wurfgranaten or similar.

I have seen the picture from Agdenes, I think the weapon was only tested there. I have also seen the pictures posted by jos, it seems to be a damaged RWB 600 U, it's missing the basket. Anybody know where the pictures are from?
Looking for the following, original or copy, any language:

Renault FT-17 - Manual and parts list
Somua MCG5 - Manual
Panzer III or StuG III - Manual and parts list
8,8 cm Flak 36 - Parts list and electrical diagram
150 cm Scheinwerfer G150K - Manual

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Natter
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Re: Found: Raketenwasserbombenwerfer RWB 600 U

Post by Natter » 03 Dec 2014 17:04

Asbjørn wrote:Thank you Natter, but that seems to be a regular "Schwere Ladungswerfer", a Heer weapon from 1941. The weapon I'm talking about was developed for the Kriegsmarine in 1944 and went in to production in 1945. It fires depth charges, not RTGs, Wurfgranaten or similar.
Yes, I know. My post was intended as a comment to the info on the original sLdgW, as it seems to have been variants of this as well (sorry for the confusing quote) :)
I figure it might be useful to check for documents/drawings of other variants to aid in the reconstruction of the Rwb 600 (I'm sure you know that there are several articles on the topic in the "Waffen Revue" series).
Asbjørn wrote:it seems to be a damaged RWB 600 U, it's missing the basket. Anybody know where the pictures are from?
You should post this on the norwegian forum as well: As you know, there are some members with exeptional talent of identifing such locations...

jopaerya
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Re: Found: Raketenwasserbombenwerfer RWB 600 U

Post by jopaerya » 03 Dec 2014 17:18

A very special weapon :-)

Regards Jos

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Natter
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Re: Found: Raketenwasserbombenwerfer RWB 600 U

Post by Natter » 03 Dec 2014 23:07

The WK2 Ammo-forum might also be worth checking out/consulting. Those guys knows a lot about ammo, including the german depthcharges:
http://www.wk2ammo.com/showthread.php?6 ... epthcharge

BOCN might also be worth a shot:
http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/forum.php

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stril
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Re: Found: Raketenwasserbombenwerfer RWB 600 U

Post by stril » 04 Dec 2014 22:08

A possible third in Bergen, but this has yet to be confirmed.
Posted by me in 2008 :
All placed at vital places in the harbour. Wasserbombenwerfer 600, Wasserbombenwerfer C/41 (Dreirohrig), 7,3 cm R.Ag.35-fach and 8,6 cm R.Ag. M/42
Is that enough to say that its comfirmed ?
regards
stril

Asbjørn
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Re: Found: Raketenwasserbombenwerfer RWB 600 U

Post by Asbjørn » 04 Dec 2014 22:50

Natter wrote:
Asbjørn wrote:Thank you Natter, but that seems to be a regular "Schwere Ladungswerfer", a Heer weapon from 1941. The weapon I'm talking about was developed for the Kriegsmarine in 1944 and went in to production in 1945. It fires depth charges, not RTGs, Wurfgranaten or similar.
Yes, I know. My post was intended as a comment to the info on the original sLdgW, as it seems to have been variants of this as well (sorry for the confusing quote) :)
I figure it might be useful to check for documents/drawings of other variants to aid in the reconstruction of the Rwb 600 (I'm sure you know that there are several articles on the topic in the "Waffen Revue" series).
Asbjørn wrote:it seems to be a damaged RWB 600 U, it's missing the basket. Anybody know where the pictures are from?
You should post this on the norwegian forum as well: As you know, there are some members with exeptional talent of identifing such locations...
No problem, we can never have too much information when restoring! :) I have most of the "Waffen Revue" series, there are some good articles! I will post the picture on the Norwegian forum, there is a good chance it's from Norway.
jopaerya wrote:A very special weapon :-)
Yes it is! That's why we saved this rust pile. :)
Natter wrote:The WK2 Ammo-forum might also be worth checking out/consulting. Those guys knows a lot about ammo, including the german depthcharges:
http://www.wk2ammo.com/showthread.php?6 ... epthcharge

BOCN might also be worth a shot:
http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/forum.php
I have used both those foras in the past, a lot of good information there! I did see the thread about the WBR 40 earlier, I think the RWB 600 is very similar, but has more room for rocket fuel due to the increased range (600 m vs. 40 m).
stril wrote:
A possible third in Bergen, but this has yet to be confirmed.
Posted by me in 2008 :
All placed at vital places in the harbour. Wasserbombenwerfer 600, Wasserbombenwerfer C/41 (Dreirohrig), 7,3 cm R.Ag.35-fach and 8,6 cm R.Ag. M/42
Is that enough to say that its comfirmed ?
Your post from 2008 is actually the reason I included Bergen as a possible location. :) Unfortunately it's not enough to confirm, it could be Wasserbombenwerfer RWB 600, or RWB 600 U. The U-version is the one which is based on the Schwere Ladungswerfer. Do you know exactly where it was located? I found the exact position of where the one in Stavanger had been, they had poured concrete around the base and you can actually see the wave pattern of the base in the concrete! The picture from the police report in my first post shows concrete remains on the base.
Looking for the following, original or copy, any language:

Renault FT-17 - Manual and parts list
Somua MCG5 - Manual
Panzer III or StuG III - Manual and parts list
8,8 cm Flak 36 - Parts list and electrical diagram
150 cm Scheinwerfer G150K - Manual

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stril
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Re: Found: Raketenwasserbombenwerfer RWB 600 U

Post by stril » 05 Dec 2014 14:47

Unfortunately it's not enough to confirm
ok
Do you know exactly where it was located?
Yes.
regards
stril

Paidoskixos
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Re: Found: Raketenwasserbombenwerfer RWB 600 U

Post by Paidoskixos » 05 Dec 2014 15:17

Wasserbombenwerfer C/41 (Dreirohrig)
Does anyone know about this? Could this be the same mentioned by Campbell, developed by Rheinmetall?

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Natter
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Re: Found: Raketenwasserbombenwerfer RWB 600 U

Post by Natter » 05 Dec 2014 15:49

You are aware of course, of the DAWA Nachrichten 38, with the article covering the 38cm RAg.
Lippmanns list of sources includes some testreports: As the photos from Agdenes indicates both RAg and RWbW being tested alongside, maybe you can find some info on the latter among the same records?
It seems like the danish national archives in Copenhagen would be an interesting place to visit (it's already on my list, due to their assumed vast collection of original german torpedo documents).

By the way: I'm puzzled of the terms being used here (and in Waffen Revue) for the weapon vs the ammunition: WBx = Wasserbombe type x is the official term. Then - in my opinion - "RBW" is more likely to be reffering to "Raketwasserbombe", ie the depthcharge with rocketengine, not the weapon?
Generally, all shortenings for "werfer" have a "W" at the end - like "Wb.W." = Wasserbombenwerfer. A "Raketwasserbombenwerfer" should then be shortened to "R.Wb.W." if you follow the same logic?

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Natter
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Re: Found: Raketenwasserbombenwerfer RWB 600 U

Post by Natter » 05 Dec 2014 16:34

I just received this document from Paidoskixos (thanks!): Table of german armament equipment Part X, Rockets and guidet Projectiles (Rheinmetall, 1948).

The following are listed (RWB xxx = "kurzbezeichnung"):
* RWB 600 = Raketantrieb für Wasserbomben
* RWB F40 = Raketantrieb für Wasserbomben Type F
* RWB G40 = Raketantrieb für Wasserbomben Type G
* RWB H40 = Raketantrieb für Wasserbomben Type H

RWB 600: "Antrieb für normale Wasserbomben zur Vergrösserung der Schussweite gegenüber den normalen Wasserbombenwerfer von 120 auf 600m bei gleichem Rückstoss zur Bekämpfung von U-Booten von Land und kleinen Kriegsschiffen aus" Ie: It seems this weapon used a standard (WBD) depthcharge, with a RWB 600 engine attached?

So, what's the correct designation for the weapon itself?

Asbjørn
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Re: Found: Raketenwasserbombenwerfer RWB 600 U

Post by Asbjørn » 26 Dec 2014 21:01

Natter wrote:You are aware of course, of the DAWA Nachrichten 38, with the article covering the 38cm RAg.
Lippmanns list of sources includes some testreports: As the photos from Agdenes indicates both RAg and RWbW being tested alongside, maybe you can find some info on the latter among the same records?
It seems like the danish national archives in Copenhagen would be an interesting place to visit (it's already on my list, due to their assumed vast collection of original german torpedo documents).
Sorry for the late reply! No, that one I'm not aware of! I have to find a copy of it, I found a description of it that mentioned "Raketenwerfer RW 300", sounds interesting! :)
I'll try to get hold of the test reports from Agdenes, I'll also contact Rheinmetall. Thanks for the tip about the Danish national archive, I'll put that on my list of archives to visit!
Natter wrote:By the way: I'm puzzled of the terms being used here (and in Waffen Revue) for the weapon vs the ammunition: WBx = Wasserbombe type x is the official term. Then - in my opinion - "RBW" is more likely to be reffering to "Raketwasserbombe", ie the depthcharge with rocketengine, not the weapon?
Generally, all shortenings for "werfer" have a "W" at the end - like "Wb.W." = Wasserbombenwerfer. A "Raketwasserbombenwerfer" should then be shortened to "R.Wb.W." if you follow the same logic?
I also have some trouble with the name of the weapon and ammo, it doesn't seem to follow the regular naming convention.

If the article in Waffen Revue is correct, the weapon is called "Wasserbombenwerfer RWB 600 U". and the ammunition "RWB 600". If we assume "RWB" means "Raketenwasserbombe", it makes some sense, It's a Wasserbombenwerfer for Raketenwasserbombe 600. The "U" probably stands for Umbau, it is after all a modified Schwere Ladungswerfer.
Looking for the following, original or copy, any language:

Renault FT-17 - Manual and parts list
Somua MCG5 - Manual
Panzer III or StuG III - Manual and parts list
8,8 cm Flak 36 - Parts list and electrical diagram
150 cm Scheinwerfer G150K - Manual

Asbjørn
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Posts: 118
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Location: Norway

Re: Found: Raketenwasserbombenwerfer RWB 600 U

Post by Asbjørn » 26 Dec 2014 21:10

Natter wrote:I just received this document from Paidoskixos (thanks!): Table of german armament equipment Part X, Rockets and guidet Projectiles (Rheinmetall, 1948).

The following are listed (RWB xxx = "kurzbezeichnung"):
* RWB 600 = Raketantrieb für Wasserbomben
* RWB F40 = Raketantrieb für Wasserbomben Type F
* RWB G40 = Raketantrieb für Wasserbomben Type G
* RWB H40 = Raketantrieb für Wasserbomben Type H

RWB 600: "Antrieb für normale Wasserbomben zur Vergrösserung der Schussweite gegenüber den normalen Wasserbombenwerfer von 120 auf 600m bei gleichem Rückstoss zur Bekämpfung von U-Booten von Land und kleinen Kriegsschiffen aus" Ie: It seems this weapon used a standard (WBD) depthcharge, with a RWB 600 engine attached?

So, what's the correct designation for the weapon itself?
Interesting, I guessed it was just a regular Wasserbombe with a rocket engine attached, but I didn't know the exact type of Wasserbombe. What leads you to believe they used WBDs and not any of the other types? They are very similar.
Looking for the following, original or copy, any language:

Renault FT-17 - Manual and parts list
Somua MCG5 - Manual
Panzer III or StuG III - Manual and parts list
8,8 cm Flak 36 - Parts list and electrical diagram
150 cm Scheinwerfer G150K - Manual

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