Panzerwagenlied (Ob's stürmt oder schneit... / Es stehet im Osten...)

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Eismann
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Panzerwagenlied (Ob's stürmt oder schneit... / Es stehet im Osten...)

Post by Eismann » 02 May 2003 18:11

[Several topics dealing with the same subject have been merged and renamed by the host, Ivan Ž.]

I have a radio program, and I'd like to broadcast the Panzerlied... but, first I want to know if it's a nazi song (in this case I won't broadcast it) or only a german song.

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Christoph Awender
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Post by Christoph Awender » 03 May 2003 09:46

Hello!

It depends on how you define or differ a Nazi song from a normal german song?
It was composed by Oberleutnant Wiehle on a trip to Königsberg in 1933.

\Christoph

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Stauffenberg II
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Post by Stauffenberg II » 03 May 2003 10:04

I think that it is not defined as a Nazi-Song. If my mind serves me the text is even painted at a wall in the Burstyn-Barracks in Zwölfaxing (Austria), where the Austrian Armored School and the Austrian Panzerbataillon 33 (Leopard 2) are located. I don´t know if the painting is still there but it was there at least until 1992/1993. This wouldn´t be possible if the text is associated with the NS-regime.

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Stauffenberg II

DarExc
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Post by DarExc » 04 May 2003 06:12

This is one of the songs my friend still sings from his old unit. He does not like Nazi songs but says this one is good and has no political ties! I think the words were made to a tune that was already existed.

glennmcd
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Post by glennmcd » 22 Jan 2004 03:30

The German Bundeswehr still sings the Panzerlied...it is NOT considered Nazi.

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Gyenes
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Post by Gyenes » 22 Jan 2004 20:51

Does it really? From what I know about Panzerlied I see no nazi ties but It is amazing it has lasted so long.

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Post by nondescript handle » 23 Jan 2004 01:03

The Panzerlied was originally composed for the NSKK, and the melody is taken from the anti-semitic song 'Es stehet in Deutschland' (and not from the Luiska song as itis sometimes claimed [cf Die Lieder der NS Zeit; Eberhard Frommann]).

But nevertheless the 'Panzerlied' is still sung by the Bundeswehr. Of course with some adjustions (e.g. first with 'To die for our country, our honour shall be' instead the original 'To die for our swastika, our honour shall be'. Since 1991 the that whole stanza is excluded from the 'songbook of the Bundeswehr'.

The Bundeswehr argues that 40 years of use by the BW had created a tradition of the denazified song in a non-nazi context. I think that has something to do with the fact that there are no pre-1933 songs for armored troops to draw from. And the Panzerlied is very popular with the armored guys.

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Mark

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Post by glennmcd » 23 Jan 2004 09:31

Vielen Dank for the input...it is much appreciated! I recall in German Elementary and Middle School when we were taught the German National Anthem...we were taught ONLY the 3rd verse...Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit. I once asked my 5th grade teacher (Herr Joseph Diehlmann...Eastern Front Veteran)...why we weren't being taught the other verses...he said to me "Weil sie falsch sind." These "forbidden verses" describe the old German borders which no longer exist....
I wish to thank you again for your input...very good information Mein Freund! Weiter So...Bist Du beim Bund?

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Post by nondescript handle » 23 Jan 2004 12:02

glennmcd wrote:Vielen Dank for the input...it is much appreciated!
You're welcome!
glennmcd wrote: These "forbidden verses" describe the old German borders which no longer exist....
And additionally the perceived meaning of 'Deutschland, Deutschland über alles...' had shifted from its old patriotic meaning ('...above the princes and dukes of the small German mini-kingdoms') to a nationalistic one ('...shall rule all other states'). Just think of the use of the first stanza 1914 in Langemarck.
glennmcd wrote:Bist Du beim Bund?
No, just the conscription term a decade ago...

Regards
Mark

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Ivan Ž.
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Origin

Post by Ivan Ž. » 25 Jul 2005 11:01

Christoph Awender wrote:It was composed by Oberleutnant Wiehle on a trip to Königsberg in 1933
nondescript handle wrote:The Panzerlied was originally composed for the NSKK, and the melody is taken from the anti-semitic song 'Es stehet in Deutschland' (and not from the Luiska song as itis sometimes claimed [cf Die Lieder der NS Zeit; Eberhard Frommann]).
The initial "Panzerwagenlied" was the antisemitic SA song "Es stehet im Osten die eiserne Schar". The "Panzerwagen" refers to the armoured cars used by the Freikorps, and the "Eiserne Schar" to a Freikorps unit, "Eiserne Schar Berthold", which fought the Bolsheviks in the Baltics in 1919 (the unit was praised by the Nazis, who also wrote a song about it). The melody was based on an older song, called "Weit über den Klippen" (a.k.a. "Luiska-Lied"). To avoid a possible confusion, it should be mentioned that there were several variations to the SA lyrics; the most common song opening lines were "Es stehet im Osten", "Es steht an der Grenze" and "Es steht an der Ostsee" (all referring to the Berthold Freikorps unit and the Baltics). And the melody today best known as the melody of the "Panzerlied" (originally called "Panzerwagenlied" too) was actually much more tied to the SA variant of the song during the Third Reich period. But, since the Bundeswehr continued using the song, the undesirable connection to its SA origin was eventually "forgotten"...

Although some period sources also claimed that Kurt Wiehle wrote his lyrics (Ob's stürmt...) already in 1933, the earliest source I've found mentioning his song was from 1936 = after the formation of the Panzertruppe, which was in 1935. So, the conclusion is that the today famous "Panzerwagenlied" (Ob's stürmt...) is an apolitical (army) variant of the antisemitic "Panzerwagenlied" (Es stehet...), which was based on the melody of "Luiska-Lied".

The "Panzerwagenlied" (Es stehet im Osten...) was indeed one of the main NSKK melodies and it was used as a trio in several of their marches. It should be noted that the march today incorrectly known as "Panzermarsch" (a modern fantasy title, introduced in the 1970s LP "Elitesoldaten") was actually also an SA march. The real title of that composition was "Die eiserne Schar" (again, referring to the antisemitic song).


A Freikorps armoured car; caption: "Panzerwagen in den Straßen der Reichshauptstadt"
Panzerwagen.jpg

Some of the NSKK marches with "Panzerwagenlied" (Es stehet im Osten...) in their trios
Gloria-GO-27150.jpg
Telefunken-T-6136-51172.jpg
Telefunken-T-6136-51178.jpg

The real title of the so-called "Panzermarsch", as released by Telefunken
Telefunken-A-2134.jpg
The postwar fantasy title, as released on the "Elitesoldaten" LP (and later CD)
Panzermarsch.jpg

An excerpt from the initial "Panzerwagenlied" lyrics
Panzerwagenlied1.jpg
An excerpt from the apolitical variant of the lyrics, with the origin of the melody and the original title credited
Panzerwagenlied2.jpg

Ivan
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Wim
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Post by Wim » 15 Jul 2007 12:23

[Split from Horst-Wessel-Lied]
I B Piper wrote: One I'd like to find a scan of is the Panzerlied. Have you ever seen that one?
Hello,

i own 5 songbooks from that time and the music sheets are with the songs i hope this is what you'r looking for:
Panzerwagenlied (Panzerlied).jpg
Source: Soldaten singen alte und neue Lieder [for accordion]

Wim
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I B Piper
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Post by I B Piper » 15 Jul 2007 17:56

Wim,

Thanks for the scan.

Best Regards
I B Piper

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Wim
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Post by Wim » 15 Jul 2007 18:19

If you search other songs let me know and see what i can do

Wim

linnage
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Post by linnage » 24 Aug 2007 15:51

All version of Panzerlied are postwar?
As the version for the film "Battle of the Bulge" in 1965? (I think in particular of the version or soldier strikes the ground with their shoe)

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Post by Claymore » 14 Nov 2007 20:48

A question for Ivan....

...based on his encyclopaedic knowledge of this music 8-)

...in your opinion, which commercially available CD offers the best wartime recording of the vocal rendition of "Panzerlied / Ob's stürmt oder schneit..."

...I'm not one for downloading songs from the 'www'...I prefer to collect 'proper' CD's....and I'm dismayed by the fact that I don't actually have this song on any of the CD's that I do own...(hangs head in disbelief !).... :oops:

...so Ivan, over to you!

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