What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Discussions on the final era of the Ottoman Empire, from the Young Turk Revolution of 1908 until the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923.
tiger1981
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What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by tiger1981 » 27 Mar 2015 00:17

I've read about the role of the second ottoman army in the Caucasus that
In March 1916, the decision was made to deploy the Second Army to the Caucasus Campaign. The plan was to have the Second Army attack in conjunction with the Third Army. The Second Army was made up of veterans of the Gallipoli campaign as well as two new divisions. Due to the poor state of the Ottoman rail network, it took a long period of time to move the forces. In the mean time the Russians hit the Third Army, causing heavy casualties on that already battered army, preventing it from cooperating with the Second Army. The Second Army, commanded by Ahmet Izzet Pasha, finally attacked in August with the following divisions:[ Edward J. Erickson, Ordered to Die, A History of the Ottoman Army in the First World War, (Westport, CT: Greenwood Press, 2001), 128.]

III Corps
1st Division, 7th Division, 14th Division, 53rd Division

II Corps
11th Division, 12th Division

IV Corps
47th Division, 48th Division

XVI Corps, commanded by Mustafa Kemal Atatürk
5th Division, 8th Division

Also assigned to the army was the 3rd Regular Cavalry Division.

While the XVI Corps commanded by Mustafa Kemal had success at Bitlis and Mus, the main attacks by the III and IV Corps suffered heavy losses. The Army lost about 30,000 out of 100,000 soldiers. The divisions suffering the losses were both veteran units and the best of the newly created divisions. The Ottoman Army could not afford to lose such men for meaningless gains. As a result the offensive was a major strategic defeat.[Edward J. Erickson, Ordered to Die, A History of the Ottoman Army in the First World War, (Westport, CT: Greenwood Press, 2001), 133.] It was the last major strategic offensive by the Ottomans in the war.
I knew that the XVI Corps retake Bitlis and Mus, and advanced to Van, and the Russian army stopped the XVI Corps , and occupied Mus again, but Russian army could not occupy Bitlis again.

What is the role of the III and IV corps in Caucasus in this attack?
Where was their attack?
and where they were reached?
and which division suffered heavy losses?

Thanks in advance.

stevebecker
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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by stevebecker » 28 Mar 2015 00:14

Mate,

Not a well documented area of of study much like other areas that the Turkish Army fought in.

I have a note that said

2nd Corps -

att 2nd Army at Murat Region Russia Front 11th and 12th Div's 8-16

3rd Corps -

att 2nd Army at Murat Region Russia Front 1st, 7th, 14th and 53rd Div's 8-16

4th Corps -

att 2nd Army at Murat Region Russia Front 47th and 48th Div's 8-16

16th Corps -

att 2nd Army at Murat Region Russia Front 5th and 8th Div's

Sorry no other details other then the Murat area of the Front

Cheers

S.B

tiger1981
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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by tiger1981 » 28 Mar 2015 06:16

Mate,
Yes, you're right
I also did not find details about the attack.
I have looked up in the Russian sources (because I know the Russian language well).
But even in Russian sources i did not find details about the attack.
In any case, thank you very much.

stevebecker
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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by stevebecker » 29 Mar 2015 02:10

Mate,

I did find this detail on a Turkish webb site;

"Early in the morning on February 16, 1916, Russian troops marched into Erzurum. Turkish units had successfully withdrawn and avoided encirclement, however casualties were already high. 327 pieces of artillery were lost to Russians. Support units of the Third Army and around 250 wounded lying at the hospital of Erzurum were taken prisoner. Meanwhile remnants of the X and XI Corps established another defensive line, 8 kilometers east to Erzurum.

Istanbul was still celebrating the victory in Gallipoli. However, news from the eastern front and the loss of Erzurum changed the atmosphere in an instant. Enver Paşa ordered the V Corps (consisting of 10th and 13th Divisions) to be deployed to the Caucasian front. On February 27, he replaced Mahmut Kamil Paşa with Vehip Paşa, then commander of the Second Army and one of the heroes of Gallipoli. Vehip Paşa arrived in Erzincan, the new location of the army headquarters, on March 16. His first task was to bring an order to the Third Army, which at that time had only 25,500 men, 76 machine guns and 86 pieces of artillery battle ready. Erzurum was lost, together with its hospitals and logistics support.

Enver Paşa knew that the Third Army was not capable to defend the frontline on its own. He ordered the Second Army, which was then in Thrace under the command of Ahmet İzzet Paşa, to proceed to Diyarbakır in Southeast Anatolia and support the eastern flank of the front held by the Third Army. The Second Army was planned to reach the strength of four corps and ten divisions by August.

Meanwhile Russians were moving full speed ahead. In March 1916, they landed in Rize, an important port in eastern Black Sea Region, marching to west and occupying another port, Trabzon, on April 16. This was bad news for the Third Army, because now they were cut off from reinforcements and supply through Black Sea. In addition to those difficulties, the arrival of the Second Army was delayed, because there were limited means for railroad transportation and it was the units deployed to Mesopotamia who were given priority in transportation.

Facing so many difficulties, Vehip Paşa decided to divide the front in three operational zones: (1) Southeastern zone: North of Diyarbakır, to be held by Mustafa Kemal’s XVI Corps; (2) Central zone: Commanded by X Corps’ Yusuf Ziya Paşa, supported by IX and XI Corps as well as the 2nd Cavalry Division; (3) Northern zone: Black Sea coast, to be held by Fevzi Paşa’s V Corps.

Russian forces entering Trabzon

In late June, Fevzi Paşa’s V Corps attacked into the Eastern Black Sea Mountains (Pontic Alps) in order to recapture the port of Trabzon, which was now used by the Russian for seaborne reinforcements. Although minor successes were registered, the main objective was now achieved due to lack of adequate forces. By June 28, the Turks were ten kilometers to the sea, however they had to stop there due to a strong Russian defense.

Meanwhile the Russians were preparing for a counteroffensive aiming to relieve the pressure on Trabzon and threaten the Turkish city of Sivas. They launched their attack, which came to be known as the Çoruh Campaign, on July 2; and as they were on the outskirts of Bayburt, they engaged the Turkish X Corps. The Turks fought bravely, but they could not hold the ground. Bayburt fell on July 17.

Vehip Paşa and the staff of the Third Army
Source: Atlas Tarih 30/2014 (above), Tunca Örses collection (below)

The Russians did not stop at Bayburt. Using the town as a bridgehead they renewed their attacks, crossed the Karasu River, pushing back the Turkish IX and X Corps. On July 25, Russian advance forces entered the city of Erzincan. Vehip Paşa had no option but to leave the town to the Russians and retreat to west in order to prevent further Russian penetration into Anatolia. Çoruh Campaign had gone on for 12 days during which the Turks have not only lost important towns, but also 17,000 men killed and around the same number taken prisoner.

Although the Turks had received a remarkable blow, Ahmet İzzet Paşa decided to attack one week after the conclusion of the Russian offensive. It was now the Second Army’s task to save the Third Army from disaster and recapture the town of Erzincan. The Turkish offensive commenced on August 2, 1916, in three corps-sized groups, III, IV and XVI Corps. In the earlier periods of the campaign, Mustafa Kemal’s XVI Corps managed to take Bitlis and Muş, however this initial success did not bring victory. Russians were strengthening their lines and two weeks after the launch of the Turkish offensive they were strong enough to respond with counteroffensives. At the same times, the Turks were suffering from severe supply and logistics problems. By late September, the Turkish attack was finished. During these two months, the Turks had gained some ground, at the cost of around 30,000 killed and wounded.

The rest of the year 1916 was spent by the Turks with organizational and operational changes in the Caucasian front. Fortunately for the Turkish commanders, the Russians were quiet during this period. The winter of 1916-1917 was extremely harsh, which made fighting nearly impossible. This situation did not change during the spring. Meanwhile Russia was in political and social turmoil, which was also influencing the army ranks. The chaos caused by the October Revolution put a stop to all Russian military operations and the Russian forces began to conduct withdrawals. Neither the Russian soldiers nor the Russian people wanted to go on with the war anymore. The Turks on the other hand, could not take advantage of this situation; since their units were not in good shape either. They were under great pressure from the British in Palestine and Mesopotamia, therefore withdrawing the majority of their forces (five divisions) and sending them south. The year 1917 passed by without fighting in the Caucasian front. The Russian army slowly disintegrated until there was no effective military force. The Armistice of Erzincan, signed on December 16, 1917, officially brought an end to the hostilities.

This covers that fighting the best I can find.

The 2nd Corps is not mentioned, so was possibly to beef up units of the 3rd Army which suffered heavy losses over the last months around Erzurum (all three Corps 5th, 10th and 11th were disbanded soon after) or was in 2nd Army reserve?

Considering the length of the front at that time, these Corps (3rd and 4th) must have supported Kemals (16th) Corps in its attack around Bitlis and Mus?

But I can find no other details on this fighting or the losses they had?

Cheers

S.B

tiger1981
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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by tiger1981 » 29 Mar 2015 02:52

Mate,

thank you very mach
Although the Turks had received a remarkable blow, Ahmet İzzet Paşa decided to attack one week after the conclusion of the Russian offensive. It was now the Second Army’s task to save the Third Army from disaster and recapture the town of Erzincan. The Turkish offensive commenced on August 2, 1916, in three corps-sized groups, III, IV and XVI Corps. In the earlier periods of the campaign, Mustafa Kemal’s XVI Corps managed to take Bitlis and Muş, however this initial success did not bring victory. Russians were strengthening their lines and two weeks after the launch of the Turkish offensive they were strong enough to respond with counteroffensives. At the same times, the Turks were suffering from severe supply and logistics problems. By late September, the Turkish attack was finished. During these two months, the Turks had gained some ground, at the cost of around 30,000 killed and wounded.
then , We can guess that the III and IV Corps was attacked in the center, towards Erzincan and around Erzincan (It is possible that the plan is to have access to Erzurum).

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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by tiger1981 » 29 Mar 2015 03:03

The 2nd Corps is not mentioned, so was possibly to beef up units of the 3rd Army which suffered heavy losses over the last months around Erzurum (all three Corps 5th, 10th and 11th were disbanded soon after) or was in 2nd Army reserve?
I think the II Corps was in 2nd Army reserve, because the corps was not involved in the fighting in that time, and his divisions were not disbanded after the attack of the second army.

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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by tiger1981 » 30 Mar 2015 22:28

This important information

Osman Levent wrote:Dear Friends,
As I was going through this panel, I couldn't help but notice that the day to day deployment dates of Ottoman Units during WWI was needed to help some of our members to be able to follow up on their preferred subjects. Here's a list of such moves depending on the location of h/q units for Divisions as well as for units above this rank according to their mobilization date until their de-commissioning or their final disposition. The location names have been compiled through the enormous opus prepared by the War Annals Section of the Turkish General Staff Command entitled "The Turkish War during the First World War". I do realize that I must have omitted certain moves or that the authors might have "generalized" some of the operational conditions. If you do spot and remark on such gaps, please send a note; I shall be more than grateful.
Best Regards, Osman Levend

Army Groups & Regional Commands (Ordu Grub'ları & Havâlî Kumandanlık'ları)





3. Army Corps (designated as the Roumelian Group Command from __.04.15 to 09.01.16)
02.08.14 Kal’a i Sultâniye 28.04.15 Geli Bolu __.05.15 Ali Beğ farm __.06.15 Bolayır fortifications 09.01.16 Geli Bolu __.01.16 Ereğ'lu i Marmara __.02.16 Kırk Kilisa (Army Corps barracks) 23.05.16 Çor'lu 30.05.16 Istanbul (Haydar Paşa Stn) 01.06.16 Haleb Stn 05.06.16 Tel el Halef Stn (Ras el Ayn) 07.06.16 Maraş 09.06.16 Palu 21.07.16 Meyanderân 04.08.16 Simsor 17.08.16 Gül i Zâr 03.09.16 Perhangök ü Ulyâ 05.11.16 Palu 18.12.16 Lice __.12.16 Diyâr ı Bekr 18.01.17 Mardin 03.02.17 Tel el Halef Stn (Ras el Ayn) 18.02.17 Haleb (Hotel Baron) __.03.17 Remle-Led Stn __.03.17 Hirbet Huç __.04.17 Tel eş Şerîa 07.10.17 Bi’r es Seb’a 31.10.17 || (the h/q unit was taken prisoner whilst remaining troops withdrew northward)
02.11.17 Tel eş Şerîa 04.11.17 Zahhâriye 11.11.17 H. er Rahmân 15.11.17 Beyt el Lahm 20.11.17 Bi’re 03.12.17 RamAllah 31.12.17 Turm eş Şeyh 18.08.18 Cemmain 21.09.18 Tubbas 24.09.18 el Hısn 26.09.18 Müzerrib Stn 01.10.18 Hums Stn 05.10.18 Katma Stn 26.10.18 Kışla 07.11.18 Şehir Kışla 13.11.18 Amasya 14.12.18 Sivas 12.09.19 || (joined the National Army)


4. Army Corps
02.08.14 İzmir (Sarı Kışla) 09.07.16 Osmâniye Stn __.07.16 Ma’mûre Stn __.07.16 Maraş __.08.16 Malatya __.08.16 Ma’mûret el Azîz __.09.16 Palu 10.01.17 Diyâr ı Bekr __.03.17 Palu __.03.17 Mahmud'lu 04.09.17 Simsor __.09.17 Palu 29.09.17 Sekrat __.10.17 Lice __.11.17 Diyâr ı Bekr __.03.18 Muş __.03.18 Malazgerd __.04.18 Erciş 09.06.18 Van 02.07.18 Dilman 30.07.18 Kara Oğul Han'ı 08.08.18 Urûmiye 29.08.18 Pesova __.09.18 Rayet __.10.18 Revandız 01.11.18 Van __.01.19 Erzerum 09.02.19 || (de-comissioned)



7. Infantry Division
02.08.14 Tekfur Dağ'ı 08.04.15 Ak Baş landing 23.04.15 Geli Bolu 28.04.15 Ali Beğ farm 04.05.15 Behram'lu 19.06.15 Şar Köy 23.06.15 Istanbul (Eski Hisar) 15.05.16 Maraş 28.05.16 Malatya 08.06.16 Ma’mûret el Azîz 19.06.16 Çevlik 22.06.16 Perhangök ü Ulyâ 03.08.16 Meydân ı Eşref 07.08.16 Kirvaz ı Zîr 09.08.16 Kirvaz ı Bâlâ 21.08.16 Meydân ı Eşref 29.08.16 Melihan 03.09.16 Mokar'lu 27.09.16 Miğidi __.12.16 Darahini 04.01.17 Silvan 27.01.17 Diyâr ı Bekr 12.02.17 Siverek 15.02.17 Dib Hisar 01.03.17 Ak'ca Kal’a Stn 03.03.17 Müslîmiye Stn __.03.17 Dera’a Stn 07.04.17 Şam eş Şerîf (Hîcaz Stn) 29.04.17 Kuds eş Şerîf Stn 20.05.17 Cemâme 25.05.17 Habre 19.06.17 Gazze 01.10.17 Deyr Esneyd 26.10.17 Gazze 05.11.17 Beyt Cerrah 09.11.17 Esdûd 13.11.17 Remle-Led Stn 20.11.17 Mişke 25.11.17 Cisr el Haddar 03.12.17 Şeyh Muannis 22.12.17 Mişke 18.01.18 Nablus 19.09.18 Hable 21.09.18 Tubbas 24.09.18 Far’ûn 25.09.18 || (dispersed)


14. Infantry Division
02.08.14 Kastamonu __.09.14 Ankara __.06.15 Eski Şehir 24.06.15 Reyyak Stn 29.06.15 Ma’mûre Stn 09.07.16 Çevlik 12.07.16 Diyâr ı Bekr 17.07.16 Perhangök i Ulyâ 02.08.16 Melihan 21.08.16 Hartarıç 31.08.16 Gül i Zâr __.10.16 Palu 18.12.16 Hani 26.12.16 Lice 04.01.17 Diyâr ı Bekr 30.01.17 Nusaybin __.01.17 Tel el Hayal __.01.17 Tel Uveynât __.02.17 zü'l Âb __.02.17 Musul 01.03.17 Selman ı Pâk 04.03.17 Bağdad 10.03.17 Ağa'lar Yeni'ce'si 12.03.17 Sindiyye 14.03.17 Deli Abbas Han'ı 16.03.17 Sühâniye 18.03.17 Merfû Kal’a 26.03.17 Kara Tepe 16.04.17 Hasan Kal’a 20.04.17 Ruveyzat 23.04.17 Dehhûbe 30.04.17 Tuz Hurmatû 06.05.17 Kerkük 16.05.17 Altun Köprü 19.06.17 Ruveyzat 29.09.17 Tikrit 23.10.17 Kal’at ebu Riyâze 20.05.18 Fethâ Camp 03.07.18 || (joined the 51. Division to foem the Tigris Group)

47. Infantry Division
13.08.15 Istanbul (Selîmiye barracks) 03.07.16 Kara Hisar (Istanbul Stn) __.07.16 Bozantı Stn __.07.16 Müslîmiye Stn __.07.16 Tel el Halef Stn (Ras el Ayn) 12.07.16 Diyâr ı Bekr __.07.16 Gezin Han'ı 10.08.16 Sekrat 16.08.16 Komik 24.08.16 Meşkân 13.09.16 Kamış Han'ı 18.12.16 Darahini 28.01.17 Seki __.03.17 Meyanderân __.03.17 Diyâr ı Bekr 25.06.17 Tel el Halef Stn (Ras el Ayn) 05.07.17 Haleb Stn 26.10.17 Istanbul (Selîmiye barracks) __.03.18 Bandırma __.03.18 Menemen 13.11.18 || (de-comissioned)

48. Infantry Division (the 43. Infantry troops joined this Division as of 04.10.18 since their h/q had fallen prisoner)
30.08.15 Istanbul (Eski Hisar) __.01.16 İzmir (Sarı Kışla) 09.06.16 Kara Hisar (Istanbul Stn) 13.06.16 Ma’mure Stn 20.07.16 Maraş 02.08.16 Malatya 18.08.16 İz Oğl'u 27.08.16 Büyük Baş Köy 04.09.16 Muğbet 10.10.16 Külüşkür 18.12.16 Beğlu Ağaç 20.01.17 Mutahfaz 16.06.17 Osmâniye Stn 25.06.17 Haleb 22.10.17 Dera’a Stn 15.11.17 Zerkâ Stn 03.12.17 Amman Stn 20.02.18 Katrâne Stn 24.02.18 Tel en Nimrîn 12.03.18 Amman 24.03.18 Salt 26.03.18 Amman 07.04.18 Tel en Nimrîn 06.05.18 Salt 24.09.18 Zerkâ Stn 27.09.18 Dera’a Stn 29.09.18 Duma 04.10.18 Hums Stn 06.10.18 Hamâ Stn 09.10.18 Vuzûhi Stn 20.10.18 Müslîmiye Stn 27.10.18 Tel Cibbeyn 06.11.18 Kilis 19.12.18 || (de-comissioned)

Perhaps one of our friends Turks help us locate those places

stevebecker
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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by stevebecker » 31 Mar 2015 02:06

Mate,

4th Corps with 48th Div show Maras and Malatya Aug 1916

From what I can see Malatya is a large town in a Province so named.

I can see the rail line is in this town, and goes to Palu and to Mus.

But the town is west of Bitlis and Mus also south West of Erzincan and Erzurum

3rd Corps shows Palu which is north west of Mus and has a rail line 21 July 1916.

From what I can see the 3rd Corps was on the left flank of the 2nd Army pushing towards Mus via Palu.

The 4th Corps appears to be behind the 3rd Corps (by the dates shown in its movement possibly a reserve corps or as a filler once the enemy intentions were known)

The other route is south of Palu and Malatya to Bitkis is via Diyarbakir.

These two routes appear the be the main points of attack, as there are limited roads in that area, who travelled the right flank possibly Ataturks 16th Corps since it leads to Bitlis, and Diyarbakir is shown Diyâr i Bekr on the 16th Corps movement for April 1916.

Interesting the 2nd Corps shows being at Diyâr i Bekr 23 July 1916 and at Palu at 3 Aug 1916.

Which means it supported the 16th Corps then was moved to cover the 3rd and 4th Corps?

while well north the main road is via Zara to Erzincan and Erzurum but are well out of the 2nd Armies area, possibly the 3rd Armies area..

Mate I hope you can follow my outline, as I see it?

Cheers

S.B

tiger1981
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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by tiger1981 » 31 Mar 2015 11:56

Mate,
Your analysis is very good

But I know is that the Turkish railway line was not up to eastern Anatolia in that period (if I'm wrong correct me), For this reason, the transfer of second army was delayed.

So the following to the railway line does not give a result.

According to sources,Which quoted information from Edward J. Erickson (in his book : Ordered to Die, A History of the Ottoman Army in the First World War), The attack of III and IV Corps was the main attack (This means that the attack of XVI Corps was secondary attack , It is possible to the protection of the right wing of the main attack).
The 4th Corps appears to be behind the 3rd Corps (by the dates shown in its movement possibly a reserve corps or as a filler once the enemy intentions were known)
4th Corps shows Palu Sep 1916.

Is it possible that the attack in the north-east direction , To cut the road between Erzincan and Erzurum (or o occupy Erzurum directly) and encirclementing Russian forces in Erzincan?
Interesting the 2nd Corps shows being at Diyâr i Bekr 23 July 1916 and at Palu at 3 Aug 1916.

Which means it supported the 16th Corps then was moved to cover the 3rd and 4th Corps?
Ataturk began his attack in Aug 1916 , In July 1916 was organizing the defense , It is possible to say that the 2nd Corps was reserve of defense In July 1916 to repelling the Russian if they penetrated the defensive line of 16th Corps , Then in Aug 1916 the 2nd Corps has become reserve of attack of III and IV corps, Do you agree with me?
while well north the main road is via Zara to Erzincan and Erzurum but are well out of the 2nd Armies area, possibly the 3rd Armies area..
Yes , This is the 3rd Armies area ,the 3rd Army was on the defensive and reorganization.

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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by stevebecker » 31 Mar 2015 22:58

Mate,

I would not disagree, the map I have is after WWI so when the rail line was open is unknown?

But since the main roads went throw these towns, they were the main MSR for the Turkish forces.

The left flank of the 2nd Army had to be strong as the Russians were bound to move on them through two main areas, either via Van to the east, less likely, or via Erzincan and Erzurum.

The Russian forces moving down from Erzurum appears the more likely attack route against the Turks moving east so the main reinforcement to the Palu area looks like that was the area the Russians attacked from.

I've seen no Order of battle for the Russians, so what they had to fight the Turks during this battle is unknown?

OF cause any advance either by the Turks or Russians had to secure their flanks and the 16th Corps does that by covering the Van area from attack.

I did see the orders of attack by the 2nd Army to recapture the town of Erzurum, is a strange direction of attack since there were limited roads and Major Russians forces were in Van?

Did they think that the 3rd Army would pin the Russians around Erzincan, so the 2nd Army would push up and capture Erzurum behind them (Russians) and the 16th Corps would stop attacks from Van?

Cheers

S.B

tiger1981
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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by tiger1981 » 01 Apr 2015 07:19

I've seen no Order of battle for the Russians, so what they had to fight the Turks during this battle is unknown?

I did see the orders of attack by the 2nd Army to recapture the town of Erzurum, is a strange direction of attack since there were limited roads and Major Russians forces were in Van?
In Aug 1916 Nikolai Nikolaevich Yudenich (Chief of Staff of the Russian Caucasus Army) was in the north and pushing the Ottoman 3rd Army, the Ottoman 2nd Army was in the south facing the insurgency and the second branch of Russian army under General Tovmas Nazarbekian and the detachment Armenian volunteer units controlled by Andranik Ozanian.
So it is possible to say, That the major Russian forces were placed between Trebizon and Erzincan.
According to sources,The attack of Mustafa Kemal (XVI Corps) was happened around Van lake (near of Gevaş in the southern cost,near Akhlat in the northern cost).
And According to sources, Ottoman attacks was successful in the beginning ,But by September, The Ottoman attack ended. And the Russians strengthen their lines. They were strong enough to respond with counteroffensives.
So it is possible to say, That major Russian forces stopped their attack in the north (between Trebizon and Erzincan), And moved their forces to the south to facing the attack of the Ottoman second army.

Did they think that the 3rd Army would pin the Russians around Erzincan, so the 2nd Army would push up and capture Erzurum behind them (Russians)

If the second Ottoman army succeeded in occupying Erzurum or cutting the road between Erzurum and Erzincan , the Russian attack in the north will become useless.

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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by stevebecker » 01 Apr 2015 07:38

Mate,

Yes, Its a pity Turkish High Command didn't beef up the 3rd Army before this or at lest co - ordingate the two Armies attacks.

In stead the 3rd Army was defeated, then the Russians had time to switched to the 2nd Army, defeating both in detail.

What assistance the Germans were here is hard to fathom, as the command of Turkish forces seams lack laster dispite the bravery of the soldiers forced to fight.

S.B

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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by stevebecker » 03 Apr 2015 01:27

Mate,

I did notice some thing strange in the 2nd Corps movement.

While the HQ shows being at Diyâr i Bekr 23 July 1916 and at Palu at 3 Aug 1916 not so the two Divisions of this Corps?

11th Div

shows Maras 11.06.16 Malatya 25.06.16 Ma’mûret el Azîz (Elazig) 07.07.16 Gül i Zâr 21.07.16 Simsor (Bingol) 02.08.16

and

12th Div

Maras 14.07.16 Malatya 21.07.16 Ma’mûret el Azîz (Elazig) 31.07.16 Simsor (Bingol) 03.08.16

So they appear to have travelled on a different road then threw Diyâr i Bekr as its Corps HQ did?

But did end up near each other around Simor/Palu 3rd Aug 1916

I also checked some other Divisions and noticed this 4th Corps unit?

4th Corps HQ

Maras __.08.16 Malatya __.08.16 Ma’mûret el Azîz __.09.16 Palu 10.01.17 Diyâr i Bekr __.03.17 Palu __.03.17 Mahmud'lu 04.09.17 Simsor __.09.17 Palu 29.09.17

47th Div

Diyâr i Bekr __.07.16 Gezin Han'i 10.08.16 Sekrat 16.08.16 (I have not found the last two towns?)

and

48th Div

Maras 02.08.16 Malatya 18.08.16

What I am getting at at is it appears many units were not operating under there Corps HQ's?

The 2nd Army appears to of had a lot of trouble arriving on the field, no dought due to the poor railway (where it could be used) and the poor roads?

Cheers

S.B

tiger1981
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Location: iraq

Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by tiger1981 » 04 Apr 2015 14:40

HQ of Corps probably has arrived before the Divisions, Or some Divisions were in Corps reserve.
The II Corps was not involved in the fighting in that time.

stevebecker
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Re: What is the role of the third and fourth corps in Caucasus in august 1916

Post by stevebecker » 07 Apr 2015 02:15

Mate,

I did notice the 2nd Corps shows these railway stations on the way.

Osmâniye Stn __.05.16 Haleb Stn 30.06.16 Tel el Halef Stn (Ras el Ayn) 10.07.16

So at lest the rail line goes as far Tel el Halef Stn (Ras el Ayn) because the nest stop for this Corps Diyâr i Bekr 23 July 1916 some 13 days after.

So they might have marched to Maras (possibly two days) then down to Diyâr i Bekr to allow for the number of days to get there?

The 3rd Corps shows these railway stations

Haleb Stn 05.06.16 Tel el Halef Stn (Ras el Ayn) 07.06.16

Next stop shows Maras 09.06.16 but not shown as a rail station some two days after?

The 4th Corps shows

Osmâniye Stn __.07.16 Ma’mûre Stn __.07.16

before Maras __.08.16 (dates unknown)

I check for a town called either Ras el Ayn as the possible end of the rail line at that time but could not find it?

any ideas where that town is?

The 16th Corps was already in the field before these other Corps arrived so these railway stations are not shown in its movements?

Cheers

S.B

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