Nazis stay "pro-Zionist"

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Von Schadewald
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Nazis stay "pro-Zionist"

Post by Von Schadewald » 13 Jun 2015 22:59

If you take the Judenschlaeger out of Hitler, he would not be Hitler.

But in the early 30s the Nazis and Zionists initially had good understanding. Is it possible for Hitler to proceed with the Holocaust but still maintain relations with the Jews in Palestine throughout WW2?


Image

"GOEBBELS HAS A SPECIAL COIN MINTED TO CELEBRATE ZIONISM

In 1933 and 1934 The SS Untersturmführer Leopold Itz von Mildenstein from the SS Office for Jewish Affairs, travelled to Palestine on fact finding missions and he was accompanied on these tours by a number of Zionist officials. Although his first tour was planned for five months, v Mildenstein stayed over 6 months. He became a welcome guest at many Kibbutz Farms.

His PRO-Zionist report, later printed in the Reichspropaganda Ministry Official magazine ‘ANGRIFF’ with the title ‘A Nazi travels to Palestine’ (Ein Nazi fährt nach Palästina ‘) was so filled with praise and compliments about the work being done by the German Jewish settlers in Palestine that Goebbels had a special coin minted in honour of the Co-operation. The coin had a Star of David on one side and a Swastika on the other side. In recognition of this coin, Palestines largest fruit growing firm decorated its Placard Advertising signs for Jaffa Oranges, with a huge portrait of King David flanked by Swastika flags."

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Re: Nazis stay "pro-Zionist"

Post by David Thompson » 13 Jun 2015 23:31

Von Schadewald -- Please give the source for quoted material and photographs when posting. The forum rules require it.

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Re: Nazis stay "pro-Zionist"

Post by Von Schadewald » 14 Jun 2015 01:37


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Re: Nazis stay "pro-Zionist"

Post by 4thskorpion » 14 Jun 2015 09:25

The Haavara Agreement (Hebrew: הסכם העברה Translit.: heskem haavara Translated: "transfer agreement") was signed on 25 August 1933 after three months of talks by the Zionist Federation of Germany, the Anglo-Palestine Bank (under the directive of the Jewish Agency) and the economic authorities of Nazi Germany. The agreement was designed to help facilitate the emigration of German Jews to Palestine. While it helped Jews emigrate, it forced them to temporarily give up possessions to Germany before departing. Those possessions could later be re-obtained by transferring them to Palestine as German export goods.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haavara_Agreement


The Transfer Agreement and the Boycott Movement: A Jewish Dilemma on the Eve of the Holocaust
Yf’aat Weiss

In the summer of 1933, the Jewish Agency for Palestine, the German Zionist Federation, and the German Economics Ministry drafted a plan meant to allow German Jews emigrating to Palestine to retain some of the value of their property in Germany by purchasing German goods for the Yishuv, which would redeem them in Palestine local currency. This scheme, known as the Transfer Agreement or Ha’avarah, met the needs of all interested parties: German Jews, the German economy, and the Mandatory Government and the Yishuv in Palestine. The Transfer Agreement has been the subject of ramified research literature.1 Many Jews were critical of the Agreement from the very outset. The negotiations between the Zionist movement and official representatives of Nazi Germany evoked much wrath. In retrospect, and in view of what we know about the annihilation of European Jewry, these relations between the Zionist movement and Nazi Germany seem especially problematic. Even then, however, the negotiations and the agreement they spawned were profoundly controversial in broad Jewish circles. For this reason, until 1935 the Jewish Agency masked its role in the Agreement and attempted to pass it off as an economic agreement between private parties.

One of the German authorities’ principal goals in negotiating with the Zionist movement was to fragment the Jewish boycott of German goods.
http://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Micro ... 203231.pdf

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Re: Nazis stay "pro-Zionist"

Post by 4thskorpion » 14 Jun 2015 09:36

The text in the OP is not sourced from the USHMM link but there are a number of sources that seem to quote this specific text from the (original?) online article below authored by John Bryant.

http://www.thebirdman.org/Index/Others/ ... onists.htm

Apparently the late Bryant was "an internet-based commentator on issues of race, whose perspective was decidedly racist, white supremacist and anti-Jewish. In addition to spinning yarns about the global Jewish conspiracy to run the world."
Last edited by 4thskorpion on 15 Jun 2015 07:38, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Nazis stay "pro-Zionist"

Post by 4thskorpion » 14 Jun 2015 12:03

Die Artikelserie "Ein Nazi fährt nach Palästina"

http://www.bpb.de/geschichte/zeitgeschi ... palaestina



The Flat, a 2011 documentary, by Arnon Goldfinger explores this subject:

The film opens as the director and members of his family are gathered in the apartment of his mother's mother, Gerda Tuchler, a short while after her death, to clear out the contents. His grandmother lived in the same apartment for 70 years, ever since she and her husband, Kurt, left Nazi Germany in the 1930s and emigrated to Palestine.

It is not long, however, before Goldfinger finds various items in his grandmother's house that reveal an astonishing chapter in the family's history - a chapter that had been kept under wraps for decades.

Goldfinger gradually discovers that his grandparents had a close personal relationship with a high Nazi official, Leopold von Mildenstein, head of the SS Office for Jewish Affairs (prior to Adolf Eichmann). Mildenstein traveled to Palestine in the company of the Tuchlers in the 1930s and continued a friendship with the Tuchlers after the war.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Flat_(2011_film)

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Re: Nazis stay "pro-Zionist"

Post by Von Schadewald » 18 Jun 2015 19:53

Some Jewish writers claim that the Labour Zionists (as opposed to the Revisionist Zionists) were fully capable of cooperating with the Nazis in the Holocaust! :


http://archive.org/stream/Chamish-Shabt ... 3_djvu.txt

Simon Wiesenthal received an honorary knighthood today in recognition of his
"lifetime of service to humanity" .

British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw recommended Mr. Wiesenthal for knighthood
for his "untiring service to the Jewish communities in the UK and elsewhere by
helping to right at least some of the awful wrongs of the Holocaust."

Simon Weisenthal of Vienna received his just reward from the British royal
family for covering up the full story of the Holocaust and making sure that only a
few show trials of minor bureaucrats were ever conducted, worldwide. Thanks to
Weisenthal, the Jews were satisfied that a relentless Nazi hunter was seeking justice
for them. In fact he was making sure justice for the Jews was never served.

Nowhere is the nazis mass-escape from justice clearer than in Israel. In 60 years,
with thousands of nazis who murdered her citizens to choose from, exactly two were
tried and one was released on a technicality. The other one, Adolph Eichmann, was
hunted down because he knew too much about the Jewish Agency's complicity in the
murderof 800,000 Hungarian Jews.

For years, people who know people have claimed that Eichmann was not
executed and the ashes thrown into the sea weren't his. I have never repeated the
assertion because it couldn't be proven. But after you read what is known, you may
agree that anything is possible.

I am too often compared to a widely- published Jewish internet writer named
Henry Makow. The parallels are pretty uncanny. At the same time but independently,
we both uncovered the hidden order ruling the life of the planet, and we both
discovered that the Holocaust and Israel's founding were manipulations by the same
forces.

And, as Jews, these discoveries shook us both to our cores.

The difference is that Makow has drawn all the wrong conclusions from our
discoveries. He has joined the ranks of the pro-Arab anti-semites who exploit the
information to slander Israel. The difference between him and me is I live in Israel
and know what's going on intimately, while he lives in the boondocks of Canada and
has to rely on mistaken second-hand research. We will return to the present in time,
but let us first recall the sorry chapter of Labor Zionism-Nazi ties predating the
Holocaust, as recounted by Makow:

In 1935 the steamer "Tel Aviv" made its maiden voyage from Nazi Germany to Haifa
with Hebrew letters on its bow and a Nazi flag fluttering from its mast. The Captain
of the Zionist-owned ship was a member of the Nazi Party. A passenger described the
spectacle as a "metaphysical absurdity."
Actually it made perfect sense.

The ship transported German Jews who had taken advantage of the "Haavara"
program, which allowed them to exchange their money for its value in Germany
products in Palestine. As a result, the fledgling Jewish colony received about 70,000
highly educated German Jews and 140 million Reichmarks worth of German
industrial equipment. This laid the foundation of Israel's economic infrastructure.
The arrangement also boosted the Nazi economy at a time when Jews worldwide
were boycotting German goods. (My source here is "The Secret Contacts" by Klaus
Polkehn a prominent German journalist. It is included in Olivia O'Grady's The
Beasts of the Apocalyse, 2001, 421-447.)
Why retell this story of Zionist-Nazi cooperation?

Because "Jewish" leaders have been exploiting their "lesser brethren" for a long
time, and are doing so today. Ordinary Jews pay the price and this price could rise...
The Zionists did not protest Nazi persecution such as the removal of 2000 Jewish
scholars and scientists from German universities in 1933. The Nazis rewarded this
"restraint' by allowing the Zionists to go about their work unhindered. All other
Jewish and anti fascist organizations were disbanded and their members imprisoned.



The Nazis required all Jews to join the Zionist-led "Reich Union" whose goal was
emigration. Jews were to be converted to Zionism at any cost. The Zionists were able
to publish books and newspapers critical of the Nazis so long as the audience was
restricted to Jews.

The cooperation extended to political and economic spheres. Adolph Eichmann set
up agricultural training camps in Austria to prepare young Jews for Kibbutz life. He
visited Palestine and conferred with Zionist leaders who confessed their true
expansionist goals. There was even talk of a strategic alliance between Nazi
Germany and Jewish Palestine. His report is in Himmler's Archives.
One peculiar fact about Eichmann was confusing to many Israelis. When brought
to Israel for trial, he could speak a little Hebrew and in fact, recited some Hebrew
blessings. In 1937, he visited Palestine and included in his tour talks with the leaders
of the Jewish Agency. Those contacts turned into the most embarrassing episode in
Labor Jewish history, though their murder of Yitzhak Rabin is destined to supercede
it

In 1952, a Hungarian- born Israeli journalist, Malchiel Greenwald, accused a
high-ranking Labor Party official, Rudolph Kastner, of working hand in hand with
Eichmann to murder 800,000 Hungarian Jews, while saving several hundred of his
own family and associates.

It was Ben Hecht, in 1962, who exposed the Greenwald trial in his classic book.
Perfidy. The following report is mostly based on Perfidy, and though lengthy,
summarizes the main issues:

Dr. Rudolf Verba, a Doctor of Science now serving at the British Medical Research
Council, was one of the few escapees from Auschwitz. In his memoirs published in
February, 1961, in the London Daily Herald, he wrote:

/ am a Jew. In spite of that- indeed because of that- 1 accuse certain J ewish leaders
of one of the most ghastly deeds of the war.

This small group of quislings knew what was happening to their brethren in Hitler's
gas chambers and bought their own lives with the price of silence. Among them was
Dr. Kastner, leader of the council which spoke for all Jews in Hungary. While I was
prisoner number 44070 at Auschwitz - the number is still on my arm - I compiled
careful statistics of the exterminations...! took these terrible statistics with me when I
escaped in 1944 and I was able to give Hungarian Zionist leaders three weeks notice
that Eichmann planned to send a million of their Jews to his gas chambers. ..Kastner
went to Eichmann and told him, 'I know of your plans; spare some Jews of my choice
and I shall keep quiet'



Eichmann not only agreed, but dressed Kastner up in S.S. uniform and took him to
Belsen to trace some of his friends. Nor did the sordid bargaining end there.

Kastner paid Eichmann several thousand dollars. With this little fortune, Eichmann
was able to buy his way to freedom when Germany collapsed, to set himself up in the
Argentine. ..(Ben Hecht, Perfidy, pp261-2)

These accusations are confirmed by the 'Eichmann Confessions' published in Life
magazine, 28 November and 5 December I960:

"Dr. Kastner's main concern was to make it possible for a select group of Hungarian
Jews to emigrate to Israel...

As a matter of fact, there was a very strong similarity between our attitudes in the
S.S. and the viewpoint of these immensely idealistic Zionist leaders....! believe that
Kastner would have sacrificed a thousand or a hundred thousand of his blood to
achieve his political goal. ..'You can have the others', he would say, 'but let me have
this group here'.'

The Verdict

Let the verdict of Judge Benjamin Halevi (who later became one of the panel of three

judges that tried Eichmann) in Israel's District Court of Jerusalem speak for itself,

given in criminal case No. 124 of 1953. The Attorney General v. Malchiel

Greenwald. This material should be studied carefully.

"The masses of Jews from Hungary's ghettos obediently boarded the deportation

trains without knowing their fate. They were full of confidence in the false

information that they were being transferred to Kenyermeze.

"The Nazis could not have misled the masses of Jews so conclusively had they not

spread their false information through Jewish channels. .The Nazi organizers of

extermination and the perpetrators of extermination permitted Rudolf Kastner and

the members of the Jewish Council in Budapest to save themselves, their relatives,

and friends. ..The Nazi chiefs knew that the Zionists were a most vital element in

Jewry and the most trusted by the Jews.

"This meeting of these important German guests in Budapest exposes the 'rescue'

work ofBecher in its true light. It reveals also the extent of Kastner's involvement in

the inner circle of the chief German war criminals...

"Just as the Nazi war criminals knew they needed an alibi and hoped to achieve it by

the rescue of a few Jews at the eleventh hour, so Kastner also needed an alibi for

himself.



" Collaboration between the Jewish Agency Rescue Committee and the Exterminators
of the Jews was solidified in Budapest and Vienna. Kastner's duties were part and
parcel of the general duties of the S.S."

At the appeal hearings before the Supreme Court, the Attorney General of Israel,
Chaim Cohen, explained clearly why the Government of Israel was defending
Kastnerso strongly:

"The man Kastner does not stand here as a private individual. He was a recognized

representative, official or non-official of the Jewish National Institutes in Palestine

and of the Zionist Executive; and I come here in this court to defend the

representative of our national institutions." (Hecht, p. 268)

"The truth of this statement cannot be denied. Kastner's collaboration was not that

of an individual. It was the collaboration of the Zionist leadership.

"So far, it has only been established that the Government of Israel continued to

support a Nazi collaborator after the facts about his collaboration had been

conclusively established in an Israeli court' But the story gets worse.

The Supreme Court of Israel unanimously found that Becher was indeed a Nazi war

criminal and that Kastner had without justification, and in the name of the Jewish

Agency, helped Becher to escape justice. On this point Greenwald was acquitted of

libel and Kastner was not 'fully rehabilitated'.

The Supreme Court also accepted the facts established in the lower court - that
Kastner deliberately concealed the truth about Auschwitz from the majority of
Hungarian Jews in exchange for Nazi permission to take a thousand or so to
Palestine. Again, Kastner was far from being 'fully rehabilitated'.

The Majority J udgement

But now comes the really nasty bit. After unanimously acknowledging these facts, the

Supreme Court of Israel, by a majority of three to two, found that Kastner's actions

were morally justifiable and convicted Greenwald of criminal libel for calling this

'collaboration' .

Kastner's actions only proved that he was a Nazi collaborator. It is the defense of

these actions by the Government and Courts of Israel that prove conclusively that

Zionism approves of Nazi collaboration.

The majority of the Supreme Court of Israel did not rehabilitate Kastner. They

joined him.

The Labor government of Israel had to exonerate Kastner because its very
founders were just as guilty of slaying European Jews as he. According to Rabbi



Yoel Brand, Eichmann had offered to save all 800,000 Jews in Hungary in return for
700 trucks. Brand contacted the man who would become Israel's second prime
minister, Moshe Sharett in Aleppo, where Shared had him arrested by the British.
But the worst of the lot was the chairman of the Jewish Agency, Chaim Weizmann:

Chaim Weizmann, the Zionist leader who had arranged the Balfour Declaration and
was to become the first president of Israel, made this Zionist policy very explicit:
"The hopes of Europe's six million Jews are centered on emigration. I was asked:
'Can you bring six million Jews to Palestine?' I replied, 'No.' ... From the depths of
the tragedy I want to save ... young people [for Palestine]. The old ones will pass.
They will bear their fate or they will not. They are dust, economic and moral dust in
a cruel world. ... Only the branch of the young shall survive. They have to accept it."

The cover-up of the Hungarian sellout of the Jews by the Labor Zionists meant
hushing those who knew too much about it from the inside. Kastner was murdered in
a hospital bed by the Israeli internal secret services. I offer new eye-witness
testimony to the murder in my book. Save Israel!. Great pains were taken to kidnap
Eichmann and get him under control.

And there was another person who knew way too much for his own good. He
was Raoul Wallenberg. No one did as much as this Swedish diplomat to save
Hungarian Jewry and he was rewarded for learning too much by being "disappeared 1 '
by the Russian liberators of Hungary. Only the Jewish Agency would have benefited
from his silence.

We return to 1933. There are two branches of Zionism meeting in Prague. News
of the transfer agreement with the Nazis by the Labor Zionist leadership has
emerged. The moral branch of Zionism, led by the great Zeev Jabotinsky, is
threatening to expose the atrocity to world Jewry. But Labor's negotiator with the
Nazis over the agreement, Chaim Arlozorov, is murdered on a Tel Aviv beach. A la
Rabin, Jabotinsky's followers are falsely accused of the murder and are ejected from
Hie Jewish Agency. The Labor Zionists then proceeded with their cooperation with
Hie Nazis and six million Jews later, got their state.

What makes today's events all the more confusing is that Israel's prime minister
knows all about the Holocaust, yet is determined to lead his country into another:

http://www.ahavat-israel.com/ahavaVprotest/shoa.asp

About a year before becoming Prime Minister of Israel, Ariel Sharon made an
interesting comment. He said that if Zeev J abotinsky would have been the head of the
Jewish Agency instead of David Ben-Gurion, millions of Jews would have been saved
from death during the Holocaust. Immediately afterwards, leftist politicians told
Sharon he should apologize for having said this. To which Sharon replied, "I was



there and I know what happened, if you want we can debate about it in public." No
further comments from the left were heard.

And now back to Makow's core error, parroted by vicious anti-semites
worldwide. The main thrust is that evil Sharon and wicked Bush have guided
America and her allies into quagmires in Iraq and Afghanistan. Not many Hungarian
Jews survived the Holocaust, and the ones who did were enormously lucky or had
friends in the Jewish Agency. Here is what one such survivor had to say about
Sharon:

On November 7th, Jewish multibillionaire financier George Soros, speaking to a
Jewish audience in New York said: "the policies of the Sharon Administration ....
are contributing to a resurgence of anti-Semitism in Europe."

So let's get this straight As a reward for conspiring with Bush, Israel gets the
following rewards; The Roadmap to suicide, the right to tear down dozens of
villages, the joy of turning 8000 Gazan Jews into refugees, the thrill of retreating to
undefendable borders and, as the icing on the cupcake, our capital city gets to
experience the subtle splendor of division.

Now let us make this most obvious point: We are getting just as screwed as the
Arabs. The problem is we are prepared to say that, and the Arabs are just too pig-
headed and bloodthirsty to make the same admission. We were all divvied up by the
British, placed in artificial nations and given leaders we didn't want

But unlike the Arabs who were moved all around the Middle East at the whim of
the imperialists, the Jews were manipulated into their historic and rightful homeland.
How we got there is the injustice, that we are is not

And now the simplest point of all: The Israeli Labor Zionists, often called,
generically, the Left the same monsters who brought us Kastner, Weizmann and the
Holocaust are the same folks who brought us Oslo and the "peace process."

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Re: Nazis stay "pro-Zionist"

Post by 4thskorpion » 18 Jun 2015 20:14

Von Schadewald wrote:Some Jewish writers claim that the Labour Zionists (as opposed to the Revisionist Zionists) were fully capable of cooperating with the Nazis in the Holocaust! :


http://archive.org/stream/Chamish-Shabt ... 3_djvu.txt
Right...and during the 1990's Canadian born Barry Chamish was writing extensively on Unidentified Flying Objects (UFOs) and I don't think it was Hezbollah UFOs he was writing about!!

The verbatim pasted content is widely copied and quoted on the pro-Palestinian anti-Zionist (read anti-Semitic) internet and is of course originally from "SHABTAI TZVI, LABOR ZIONISM AND THE HOLOCAUST" by Barry Chamish - which is self-published, unedited and presented without a single footnote referencing any quoted sources apart from web-links used in the book and is about as credible as his reporting of UFOs.

Chamish's book is full of absurdities such as, '.....While world Jewry was boycotting the Nazi regime in the banned human testing and needed guinea pigs. The Israeli government agreed to supply the humans in exchange for money and nuclear secrets. The initiator of Israel's nuclear program was Defence Ministry director-general Shimon Peres. '30s, the Jewish Agency in Jerusalem was propping up Hitler." See page 230.
Von Schadewald wrote: "And now the simplest point of all: The Israeli Labor Zionists, often called, generically, the Left the same monsters who brought us Kastner, Weizmann and the Holocaust are the same folks who brought us Oslo and the "peace process."[/i]
Okay so now the Israeli Labor Zionist Jews were responsible for the Holocaust? What BS.

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Re: Nazis stay "pro-Zionist"

Post by Von Schadewald » 06 May 2016 13:46

What's the informed opinion of former London Mayor Ken Livingstone's statement that "Hitler supported Zionism" that has just ended his career in Labour?

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-36177333

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... ism-claims

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 09981.html

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Re: Nazis stay "pro-Zionist"

Post by wm » 06 May 2016 23:40

Hitler didn't support Zionism, and this for the simple reason he didn't care about any goals the Zionists wanted to achieve.
He wanted a Judenfrei Germany so he was trying to use Zionism as a tool to achieve that. It was a case of coincidental convergence of methods - nothing more. Goals of both groups were different.

Similarly, the various Jewish groups didn't cooperate with the Nazis as the link claims. Cooperation requires free will and a common goal. But the Jews acted under duress and didn't have common goals with the Nazis.

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Re: Nazis stay "pro-Zionist"

Post by michael mills » 07 May 2016 00:36

A good book to read on the subject is "The Seventh Million: The Israelis and the Holocaust", by Tom Segev.

That book documents the extensive symbiotic cooperation between the Zionist Agency for Palestine and various branches of the national Socialist Government of Germany, in particular Heydrich's police agencies, for the purpose of facilitating the movement of Jews from Germany to Palestine.

However, it was not only Labour Zionists who cooperated with National Socialist Germany. In 1943, Yitschak Yezernitski, one of the leaders of the extreme right-wing nationalist Jewish terrorist organisation Lechi (also know as the Stern Gang), wrote to the German Ambassador in Ankara, Von Papen, suggesting cooperation in the fight against the common enemy, Britain. Yezernitski later became Prime Minister of Israel under the name Yitschak Shamir.

The story of the de-facto pre-war cooperation between National Socialist Germany and the Zionist Agency for Palestine appears to be still an embarrassment for Jewish people, as shown by 4th Skorpion's reaction to the material posted by Von Schadewald. Although that material does contain a lot of historical errors and wrong interpretations, and is very obviously biased, it is nevertheless true in essence.

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Re: Nazis stay "pro-Zionist"

Post by Futurist » 07 May 2016 02:11

wm wrote:Hitler didn't support Zionism, and this for the simple reason he didn't care about any goals the Zionists wanted to achieve.
He wanted a Judenfrei Germany so he was trying to use Zionism as a tool to achieve that. It was a case of coincidental convergence of methods - nothing more. Goals of both groups were different.

Similarly, the various Jewish groups didn't cooperate with the Nazis as the link claims. Cooperation requires free will and a common goal. But the Jews acted under duress and didn't have common goals with the Nazis.
Yes, this appears to be correct. Indeed, as far as I know, Hitler didn't give a damn where exactly the Jews would have immigrated to; rather, he simply wanted them out of Germany, and preferably sooner rather than later.

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Re: Nazis stay "pro-Zionist"

Post by Futurist » 07 May 2016 02:13

michael mills wrote:A good book to read on the subject is "The Seventh Million: The Israelis and the Holocaust", by Tom Segev.

That book documents the extensive symbiotic cooperation between the Zionist Agency for Palestine and various branches of the national Socialist Government of Germany, in particular Heydrich's police agencies, for the purpose of facilitating the movement of Jews from Germany to Palestine.

However, it was not only Labour Zionists who cooperated with National Socialist Germany. In 1943, Yitschak Yezernitski, one of the leaders of the extreme right-wing nationalist Jewish terrorist organisation Lechi (also know as the Stern Gang), wrote to the German Ambassador in Ankara, Von Papen, suggesting cooperation in the fight against the common enemy, Britain. Yezernitski later became Prime Minister of Israel under the name Yitschak Shamir.

The story of the de-facto pre-war cooperation between National Socialist Germany and the Zionist Agency for Palestine appears to be still an embarrassment for Jewish people, as shown by 4th Skorpion's reaction to the material posted by Von Schadewald. Although that material does contain a lot of historical errors and wrong interpretations, and is very obviously biased, it is nevertheless true in essence.
Out of curiosity--didn't David Ben Gurion once say that he would prefer that an X number of Jews be saved if all of these Jews will immigrate to Palestine rather than that a 2X number of Jews be saved if these Jews will not immigrate to Palestine?

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Re: Nazis stay "pro-Zionist"

Post by wm » 07 May 2016 13:22

Well socialist ideologues tend to see people as mere components of their abstract, socially-engineered creations.

Another example is Mr President Chaim Weizmann who wanted the USSR to assimilate all the Jews living there (the Russian Jews and especially the Polish, post- Molotov-Ribbentrop Jews were mostly the religious, conservative or Hasidic Jews - they didn't especially want to become good communists).

Another his idea was to ethnically cleanse Palestine and remove all the Palestinian Arabs to Iraq - because the lesser people - Arabs didn't deserve such a nice place.

And in the case of David Ben Gurion, even a saintly person would get mad - the Jews being reasonable people voted with their feet and preferred greener pastures than the sands of Palestine; like the US, Britain, Canada.
Similarly, the Polish Jews, mostly living in the territories annexed by the Jewish-friendly USSR didn't want to stay there.
The Polish Communist regime allocated for them the best and nicest post-German territories, there was even some talk about Jewish self rule there, and nobody stayed there for long. The US beats the shity and socialist Eastern Europe all the time :)

It's strange how the people usually know better what is best for them, than their reality isolated leaders.

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Re: Nazis stay "pro-Zionist"

Post by uberjude » 08 Jun 2016 20:52

Saying that the Nazis supported Zionism in the '30's is a bit a simplistic. They supported Jewish emigration from Germany; the Zionists supported Jewish immigration to Palestine. I imagine that, had Rafael Trujillo made good on his offer at Evian to take in 100,000 Jewish refugees then the Nazis would have been just as enthusiastic about arranging Jewish emigration to the Dominican Republic as they were to Palestine. And if Australia had a scheme to turn Jews into emu ranchers, then the Nazis would have been happy to send them there. But I don't know that one would then call the vegetarian Hitler a supporter of the emu cutlet industry.

As for the notion of "good" vs. "bad" Zionists, judging by the Revisionists' willingness to work with elements in the Polish gov't and military who were as eager to see Jews leave Poland as the Nazis were to see Jews leave Germany, I have no doubt that if they'd been in a position to work with Nazis for the same end, they would have gladly taken it (and as you point out, the Lehi offered that and more). Nor should this be surprising; In Der Judenstaat, Herzl discusses the notion that anti-semites would be supporters of Zionism, and he was quite right up to a point.

Incidentally, Timothy Snyder's Black Earth is well worth reading for several reasons, but one is certainly the discussion of Revisionist-Polish ties in the 1930's.

I agree that some do find it a distasteful episode; silly them. Collaborating with the Nazis to get Jews out of Germany in the 1930's seems a pretty reasonable endeavor. And yes, Segev's book is well worth reading.

As for WM's comments, I don't think Weizmann would be anybody's example of a socialist ideologue, or even a socialist at all.

I also don't know that his desire to expel Arabs from Palestine reflected a sense that they didn't deserve "such a nice place." Indeed, at the time, part of his argument was that Palestine was not such a nice place, precisely because, in his view, the Arabs had insufficiently developed it. Rather, he wanted to move them out both to provide room for Jews and to eliminate a danger to the Zionist project. Not terribly dissimilar to what occurred in your neighborhood after WW2.

Speaking of which, do you (or any other readers) know any good sources on the schemes to resettle Polish Jews in the formerly German territories? Thanks.

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