Jewish Death Squads - suspected victims?

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little grey rabbit
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Jewish Death Squads - suspected victims?

Post by little grey rabbit » 16 Aug 2015 11:08

Presently reading Eichmann before Jerusalem by Bettina Stangneth
On page 100 it has one of those claims that I am never sure if they are true or the Israelis are big noting themselves
Vengence squads were busy compiling hit lists and going in search of the people who had tortured them. "The method of those seeking revenge was simple," Tom Segev observed, having spoken to former members of these hit squads. "They disguised themselves as British military policemen and appeared at their victims' houses in a military pickup truck, its license plates obscured with mud. They would knock on the door, ascertain the identity of the man, and ask him to come with them for some sort of routine procedure. In general, there were no problems. They would take their victim to a predesignated location, identify themselves, and shoot him."

Naturally Eichmann was also on a hit list. In 1966 Michael Bar Zohar, an Israeli author who excellent relationship with David Ben Gurion and Moshe Dayan, managed to speak to the leader of the unit that had hunted Eichmann. As they were carrying out surveillance on Vera Eichmann, the men noticed that she and her brother-in-law often went to a secluded villa. They followed her and Eichmann's brother to this house, in which four men were living a decidedly secretive life. The four men left the premises only at night and received provisions covertly. One evening the team accosted the man they took to be Eichmann as he was taking a walk, and said they were from Palestine. He replied arrogantly, "You can't do anything to me," whereupon he was shot and fatally wounded[20]. Many years later Tom Segev spoke to Shimon Avidan, who had been part of that team. Avidan told him that everyone was convinced they had caught the Adviser on Jewish Affairs, but Avidan had been less sure[21]. Eichmann, who read about the incident later in a magazine sent from Austria, always spoke of this execution with a strange pride[???]
[20] The Avengers
[21] The Seventh Million
[???] Source for the Eichmann claim?

Could Israelis just wander around Austria and kill random people they thought were Eichmann without any consequences? Is the location, date and identity of this hit known? If we believe Stangneth the event was featured in a contemporary magazine article, but she doesn't give a reference to the article or give a reference for the strange pride of Eichmann

But Jewish Death Squads more generally, there is a wealth of claims for their existence, but a paucity of actual victims. Does anyone know of any suspected victims of these squads.

MIght August Hirt be one such victim? He is supposed to have committed suicide in a forest in June 1945. The fact he killed himself in a remote location is consistent with the claimed modus operandi
There also claims, difficult to source authoritatively, that he was exhumed later by Mossad. That would suggest that they knew precisely he was buried.
Die Namen Der Nummern by Hans-Joachim Lang page 214
Frederick Kasten wissen, dass der israelische Geheimdienst Mossad in den 1950er Jahren heimlich Hirts Grab geöffnet habe
And from the Master Plan by Heather Pringle
According to medical historian Frederick Kasten, the Israeli secret service contacted officials in the Black Forest region and had them exhume the body of the man who commited suicide there in the early summer of 1945. An Israeli pathologist conclusively identified the bones as those of Dr. August Hirt. Kersten "Unethical nazi Medicine in Annexed Alsace-Lorraine," Historians and Archivists: Essays in Modern German History and Archival Policy, ed. George O. Kent 1991]
Its a bit tentative, does anyone know any names of people killed by such squads?

history1
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Re: Jewish Death Squads - suspected victims?

Post by history1 » 17 Aug 2015 07:28

If Mossad was able to kidnap Eichmann in Argentina and bring him to Israel why they should be not able to kill some people in Austria?
Some information I found (I hope Google translator didn´t confuse the text too much): https://tinyurl.com/p39pk3s

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Re: Jewish Death Squads - suspected victims?

Post by 4thskorpion » 17 Aug 2015 10:41

They were Jewish "Nakam or Revenge" Squads rather than Jewish "Death" Squads the term used on Rense, Stormfront and similar websites to infer equivalence of the "Nakam" with the German Einsatzgruppen killing squads.

See: Nakam (נקם, "Revenge")

Abba Kovner planned to avenge the Holocaust by poisoning the bread rations of German prisoners at Stalag 13 in Nuremberg where 8,000 Germans were being held prisoner - they were guards from the death camps and members of the Einsatzgruppen. His men managed to paint 3,000 loaves with arsenic poison. It is not clear how many died in the poison attack, if anyone did at all. Full story: A Final Mission

little grey rabbit
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Re: Jewish Death Squads - suspected victims?

Post by little grey rabbit » 17 Aug 2015 13:08

They were Jewish "Nakam or Revenge" Squads rather than Jewish "Death" Squads the term used on Rense, Stormfront and similar websites to infer equivalence of the "Nakam" with the German Einsatzgruppen killing squads.
If it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck and waddles like a duck...
But I don't have an issue with some people believing under some circumstances death squads are acceptable. For example, personally I am against the death penalty but I don't object to people being in favor of it. But I am not sure if calling it the Revenge Penalty makes a difference
If Mossad was able to kidnap Eichmann in Argentina and bring him to Israel why they should be not able to kill some people in Austria?
Some information I found (I hope Google translator didn´t confuse the text too much): https://tinyurl.com/p39pk3s
Hi History1, I wasn't saying it was impossible, I was just interested in how big a phenomena it was. There must be thousands of German biographies on AxishistoryForum, I am not aware of any that states "killed in 1945 by Jewish Death Squad."

So one possibility I suggested is that these are garrulous Israeli pensioners big noting themselves, the other I am suggesting that some of these deaths may have been reported as suicides. Or these were Death Squads that completely failed to get any target of any significance.

Anyway Bettina Stangneth clears up the mystery on page 154 as regards Eichmann

A death notice was printed in the Linz and Vienna papers in 1954 - allegedly from Reuters, London, that an SS Oberscharfuehrer Wolfgang Bauer had been killed in the Salzkammergut Mountains near Linz by a Jewish Death squad in 1946. It appeared in the Oberoesterrische Zeitung. On the Sassen tapes Eichmann claimed to have read about this while still in Germany in 1946, but according to the footnotes Stangneth wasn't able to locate any reports from this time.

At the time it was thought to have been deliberate misinformation by Nazis to create the impression that Eichmann might be dead. Given that Stangneth concludes with "The original source of the news is still unknown" that the story isn't/wasn't true must surely still be a highly plausible scenario.

Your article appears just to repeat it as a sourceless rumour, although now in Vienna and not at Traunauen.
In Wien erschießt ein jüdisches Kommando einen Mann, der Adolf Eichmann ähnlich sieht. Ein Nazi wird in seinem „arisierten“ Geschäft erschlagen. Ein SSler wird im Wienerwald mit einem Seidenstrumpf erdrosselt.

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Re: Jewish Death Squads - suspected victims?

Post by 4thskorpion » 17 Aug 2015 16:01

little grey rabbit wrote:
They were Jewish "Nakam or Revenge" Squads rather than Jewish "Death" Squads the term used on Rense, Stormfront and similar websites to infer equivalence of the "Nakam" with the German Einsatzgruppen killing squads.
If it quacks like a duck, looks like a duck and waddles like a duck...
:D
little grey rabbit wrote: A death notice was printed in the Linz and Vienna papers in 1954 - allegedly from Reuters, London, that an SS Oberscharfuehrer Wolfgang Bauer had been killed in the Salzkammergut Mountains near Linz by a Jewish Death squad in 1946. It appeared in the Oberoesterrische Zeitung. On the Sassen tapes Eichmann claimed to have read about this while still in Germany in 1946, but according to the footnotes Stangneth wasn't able to locate any reports from this time.
However Bettina Stangneth never used your term "Jewish Death squad" on page 154 - as well you know.

As we can read in the attachment Stangneth used the term "Jewish vengeance squad" and I am sure she had all her ducks in a row when she wrote this paragraph.
Eichman Before Jerusalem - page 154.png
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history1
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Re: Jewish Death Squads - suspected victims?

Post by history1 » 17 Aug 2015 17:45

little grey rabbit wrote:[...]
So one possibility I suggested is that these are garrulous Israeli pensioners big noting themselves, the other I am suggesting that some of these deaths may have been reported as suicides. [...]
Or mentioned as deadly car accidents as there were many with former Nazis involved.
little grey rabbit wrote:Anyway Bettina Stangneth clears up the mystery on page 154 as regards Eichmann

A death notice was printed in the Linz and Vienna papers in 1954 - allegedly from Reuters, London, that an SS Oberscharfuehrer Wolfgang Bauer had been killed in the Salzkammergut Mountains near Linz by a Jewish Death squad in 1946. It appeared in the Oberoesterrische Zeitung. On the Sassen tapes Eichmann claimed to have read about this while still in Germany in 1946, but according to the footnotes Stangneth wasn't able to locate any reports from this time.
Linz, the capital of our state Upper Austria, is not in the Salzkammergut-area nor is even the northern border of the Salzkammergut Mountains near the city Linz.
The newspapers name is rather "Oberösterreichische Zeitung (Upper Austrian Newspaper), sadly the newspaper archive of the Austrian National Library doesn´t provide files after 1944, at the moment.

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Re: Jewish Death Squads - suspected victims?

Post by history1 » 17 Aug 2015 17:59

@ 4thskorpion:
I´m total confused now by this article! It says
"killed in the Salzkammergut Mountains (at Traunauen, near Linz)"
As mentioned before is Linz far away from that area, see:
https://tinyurl.com/nzp7pfw
And "Traunauen" meanth nothing else than " riparian forest /floodplain of the river Traun", in this case near Linz.
Last edited by history1 on 17 Aug 2015 18:26, edited 1 time in total.

The Black Rabbit of Inlé
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Re: Jewish Death Squads - suspected victims?

Post by The Black Rabbit of Inlé » 17 Aug 2015 18:15

little grey rabbit wrote:But Jewish Death Squads more generally, there is a wealth of claims for their existence, but a paucity of actual victims. Does anyone know of any suspected victims of these squads.

Auschwitz administrator SS-Ostuf. Theodor Kratzer was murdered by a "German organisation" of former KL prisoners according to a British War Crimes unit memo from Nov 1945:
There exists a secret German organisation made up of ex-Concentration Camp prisoners who have sworn to revenge the death of many of their comrades who were killed in the various camps. It is clear that they have already discovered the whereabouts of quiet a few people whom we are also looking for and many of these are now hiding under false names in Schleswig-Holstein. [...]

One man who was executed recently by this organisation was Obersturmführer KRÄTZER (administration of Auschwitz).
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4#p1836394

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wm
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Re: Jewish Death Squads - suspected victims?

Post by wm » 17 Aug 2015 21:59

Well, Krätzer was working in the prisoner property office. Additionally there were relatively few German prisoners in Auschwitz, they usually lived a good life there, and for them it was a safer place than the Eastern Front (although many of them were eventually sent there in the end).
So the question is how those members of that German organization in the distant Schleswig-Holstein even knew about him, and what was their beef with Krätzer.

And I'm curious how they were able to find and recognize their victims.
In the chaotic, post-war Germany or Austria finding someone would be a many months long job, and without any guarantee of success, for a national police force like the German or Austrian Police.
I don't quite believe that a few random Jews or Germans were able to do that.

As I understand it the revenge was usually personal and blind, for example, according to Michał Zammel, a soldier in the Jewish Brigade Group:
We enjoyed the life by avenging themselves on the Germans. It happened, that drivers of military trucks deliberately drove into lines of Germans waiting for bread, killing or wounding them. German women were raped, I saw that myself. I didn't allow my soldiers to do that although it was a trifle in comparison with what the Germans did to our brothers, sisters, families.

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Re: Jewish Death Squads - suspected victims?

Post by HaShomer » 18 Aug 2015 02:44

While there were a few formally operational Jewish Revenge squads in action after May 1945, such as Abba Kovner''s group, one question is why weren't there many more? One answer is that Jewish resistance fighters turned to rescuing Jewish survivors and moving them toward the West or British Palestine. Secondly, Jewish Agency and Haganah leadership in British Palestine were turning their attention to the battle for Israeli independence from Britian, and the ongoing battle with the Arabs. Hunting Nazis was (unbelievably) not the prime agenda. The next war(s) for Jewish survival had to be fought.

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Re: Jewish Death Squads - suspected victims?

Post by history1 » 18 Aug 2015 15:32

wm wrote: Well, Krätzer was working in the prisoner property office. Additionally there were relatively few German prisoners in Auschwitz, they usually lived a good life there, and for them it was a safer place than the Eastern Front (although many of them were eventually sent there in the end).
[...]
wm, I assume you will review the nonsense you wrote!
Inmates from Austria and Germany didn´t suffer less than their polish fellows.

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Re: Jewish Death Squads - suspected victims?

Post by wm » 18 Aug 2015 17:49

There were very few Germans in Auschwitz - mostly criminals, and they were given the best positions and power over other prisoners. There were others, like those Eduard Wirths brought with him from Dachau. Invariably most of them worked in the best kommandos.
Even in the brothel there, there were Nur für Deutsche women, available only to the German prisoners. The Auschwitz pecking order was Germans-Poles-Soviets-Jews. The Jews as usual at the bottom.
Of course, almost everybody suffered there, but they suffered the least.

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Re: Jewish Death Squads - suspected victims?

Post by 4thskorpion » 18 Aug 2015 18:38

I believe that the initial prisoners (Numbers 1 to 30) of Stammlager Auschwitz I were German criminals brought in from the Oranienburg concentration camp in May 1940 who became the first camp "Kapos" at Auschwitz I and hence controlled the best "postions or jobs" ie. those indoors, less arduous and with access to better food and conditions in the camp. Then Polish cavalry officer Witold Pilecki's camp resistance organisation as it gained strength in numbers and influence gradually ousted the German "Kapos" out of these best "jobs" by one means or another and replaced them with his own Polish functionaries.

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Re: Jewish Death Squads - suspected victims?

Post by 4thskorpion » 18 Aug 2015 18:57

history1 wrote:@ 4thskorpion:
I´m total confused now by this article! It says
"killed in the Salzkammergut Mountains (at Traunauen, near Linz)"
As mentioned before is Linz far away from that area, see:
https://tinyurl.com/nzp7pfw
And "Traunauen" meanth nothing else than " riparian forest /floodplain of the river Traun", in this case near Linz.
If you are confused then so must I be.

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Re: Jewish Death Squads - suspected victims?

Post by wm » 18 Aug 2015 19:49

It wasn't only the Poles that fought those criminals and their rule, lots of "decriminalization" was done by German communists. And among those criminal rulers of Auschwitz there was quite a large group of Polish criminals too.

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