Lancaster Bomber Air Refuelling?

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Delta Tank
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Lancaster Bomber Air Refuelling?

#1

Post by Delta Tank » 31 Mar 2016, 14:27

To all,

Currently reading through "History of the Second World War, Grand Strategy, Volume V" by John Ehrman, on page 519 it states the following:
Sir Charles Portal replied that there was a distinction. The Lancaster bomber, if refuelled in the air, had a range nearly approaching that of the B.29. Without refuelling in the air these aircraft had a range of 800-900 miles.
Now, my question, is he talking about what we today consider in air refueling or some different type of in air refueling? I have never read that anyone did in air refueling from one plane to another while flying.

Mike

ROLAND1369
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Re: Lancaster Bomber Air Refuelling?

#2

Post by ROLAND1369 » 31 Mar 2016, 14:55

Aerial refueling was experimented with from the 1930s on. I have seen the experimental refueling between B-24s aduring WW II. However the system was not operationally used as it was very immature and impractical on a large scale. In short it involved the fueling plane to trail a hose from its bombay and the plane to be refueled had to snag the hose with a hook on a stick and manually bring it to the aircraft for manual hookup by the crew. This is basically the system which would have been used.


Delta Tank
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Re: Lancaster Bomber Air Refuelling?

#3

Post by Delta Tank » 31 Mar 2016, 15:07

Roland,

Thanks for the quick reply, so basically it could be done, but very very impractical. So if 100 Lancasters were to be refueled on a single mission, how many "tanker" aircraft would be needed? And do you have an estimate of how long it would take to refuel one aircraft?

Mike

Orwell1984
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Re: Lancaster Bomber Air Refuelling?

#4

Post by Orwell1984 » 31 Mar 2016, 15:45

The Americans were in flight refueling pioneers, successfully completing the first mission in 1923.
In January 1929, the modified Fokker aircraft Question Mark flew for 6 days in a circular flight over California. Among the plane's crew were such future WW2 names as Eaker, Spaatz and Quesada. (Spaatz may also be one of the first airborne streakers as detailed in the linked article :) )
Details of this flight and other early ones here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Question_ ... ircraft%29

Delta Tank
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Re: Lancaster Bomber Air Refuelling?

#5

Post by Delta Tank » 31 Mar 2016, 16:06

Orwell,

I knew of that flight, but I never read that it was actually an operational option for a combat mission.

Mike

Tomg44
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Re: Lancaster Bomber Air Refuelling?

#6

Post by Tomg44 » 03 Apr 2016, 14:30

This idea seems to have attracted more attention than might be expected.
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=KS ... e&q&f=true

The believe USAF used a Boom system for bombers and a Drogue for fighters. I read somewhere that the Boom system delivered fuel more quickly.
01.jpg

Mil-tech Bard
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Re: Lancaster Bomber Air Refuelling?

#7

Post by Mil-tech Bard » 09 Apr 2016, 15:02

I've been researching the UK "Tiger Force" which was to start flying from Okinawa for Operation Downfall. Air-to-air refueling was not on the table in the late summer of 1945.

These are crib notes from "LANCASTER The Second World War's Greatest Bomber" by Leo McKinstry Copyright 2009, John Murray publishers isbn 978 0 7195 2363 2.


pages 496 - 497

Air-to-air refueling "not fully practicable." It would take 3 planes
to do the work of one plane.

Page 497

UK Air Ministry tried 1,200 gallon saddle tank above the wing of the
Lancaster to get 3,650 gallons fuel with 8,000 lb payload to 4,340
miles (one way distance, not radius of action) It was structurally
unsound, which was found upon early full load landings with landing
gear collapses.

Pages 497 - 498

UK Air Ministry had Avro design a 'tropicalized ' Lancaster with the
mid-top machine gun turret was replaced by a 400 gallon fuel tank and
the plane had Gee, Loran, and the "Rebecca" half of the
Rebecca/Eureka beacon system. This plan was considered by Avro the
Lancaster Mark I Far East (FE), the Avro Lincoln was considered the
Lancaster Mark VII FE. The Mark VII had the identical Gee, Loran, and
the "Rebecca"

A fully tricked out Lancaster Mark I Far East (FE) had a one way range
of 3,180 miles.

The Tiger Force had a radius of action of at least 1,000 miles with the Lancaster
Mark I Far East (FE) and the Lincoln Mark VII FE were better. Operating from
Okinawa, the RAF Tiger Force didn't really need air-to-air refueling, even
if they brought some of the air-to-air refueling kits.

Rebecca meant the British bombers could beacon bomb in support of the
troops ashore in Kyushu. The 10cm UPN-1/2 beacons in Gen. Kenney's wish
list for Olympic meant Gee-H type 'cat and mouse' bombing was on the table,
if the Lancaster Mark I Far East (FE) also had H2S radar.

Further internet searches turned up the following on the first two Tiger Force squadrons and their intended target in late Oct 1945.

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html? ... 3&t=317659

vito113 [Team Member]
1/27/2005 6:14:27 PM
Did some more research on TIGER FORCE.


General Spaatz specifically requested that the RAF have two 'Tallboy'
Squadrons of Lancasters operational on Okinawa by October 15 1945. He
required them to attack specific targets on the Japanese mainland
before the invasion of Kyushu on November 1 1945.

He required them to take out several major bridges between Tokyo and
Shimoniseki as well as the Kammon Tunnel linking Honshu and Kyushu
using their 'Tallboy' and 'Grand Slam' bombs.

No 9 and 617 Squadrons of RAF were selected for this task.

10 Squadrons of conventional Lancaster heavy bombers along with their
Mosquito pathfinders were to be deployed to Okinawa also, rising to 20
squadrons by the years end.

Andy
and

Confirmation of the 617th Damnbusters going for the Kanmon tunnel,
from The Sydney Morning Herald of all places.

See:

The Sydney Morning Herald - Jan 12, 1952

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 33,1170773

Mil-tech Bard
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Re: Lancaster Bomber Air Refuelling?

#8

Post by Mil-tech Bard » 09 Apr 2016, 15:22

I later found out that other than "Special Missions Wing, RAF" (the Damnbusters and the 2nd tallboy/Grand Slam sqd.), most of Tiger Force would be flying 141 Canadian built Lancaster Mk. X, which definately were not air-to-air kit equipped.

See this:

It is interesting to note that this initial list for No. 6 Group, RCAF
shows Lancaster's as Mk. BI (FE) and BVII (FE) and also included
Lincoln BII's. When in fact all units forming in Canada were made up
of Lancaster's that had been flown back to Canada and were in fact
Canadian made Lancaster Mk.X.



From the full text and link below --
http://www.lancaster-archive.com/lanc_tigerforce.htm


Lancaster's Of Tiger Force

CANADA's Contribution to Tiger Force


Updated: June 2008

During the September 1944 Quebec Conference, Winston Churchill
proposed that once Germany was defeated and the Allied attention
turned towards the defeat of Japan. He proposed to transfer a large
portion of Bomber Command or some 500 to 1000 heavy bombers to the
Pacific theatre. The proposal was quickly accepted by President
Franklin D. Roosevelt.

By late 1944, victory was more a matter of time rather than a question
of being achieved and the decisions was made on 20 October 1944 to
form a very large bomber force code named "Tiger Force"

Initially consisting of twenty-two squadron's formed into three bomber
groups. One Royal Air Force (RAF), one Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF)
and one contain squadrons from the Royal Air Force, Royal Australian
Air Force (RAAF), Royal New Zealand Air Force (RNZAF) and South
African Air Force (SAAF). The force was reduced to ten bomber squadron
in two groups consisting of RAF and RCAF squadron's and was later
revised to include only eight squadron's.

Tiger Force was to the based on Okinawa and would use Avro
Lancaster's, the newly arriving Avro Lincoln's and Consolidated
Liberator's. Fighter escort duties were to be supplied by US Far East
Air Force units and the Australian First Tactical Air Force as well as
other Commonwealth units.

Aircraft marking for the Avro Lancaster and Lincoln's was to be white
upper-surfaces with black undersides. All Tiger Force was to be
cancelled before being deployed this colour scheme was used on many
RAF post-war Lancaster's and Lincolns.

With the American bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki using Atom Bombs,
Japan's surrender followed shortly afterwards on 2 September 1945. But
5 September 1945 the Canadian Tiger Force Units, who had yet to begin
training, received disbandment orders, while the RAF units were to
remained on standby until they too received disbandment orders on 31
October 1945.

Tiger Force proposed formation included nine Wings and 22 Squadron's:

The intended Order of Battle by 15 August 1945 stood as follows:


Air-Sea Rescue Squadron - 10 x Lancaster ASR III + 10 Catalina (not
yet established)

Communications Flight: 6 x Auster + 2 x Expediter CI + 1 x Expediter CI (VVIP)

Reserve Force:

No's 49 Squadron, RAF: 20 Lancaster/Lincoln
No. 189 Squadron, RAF: 20 x Lancaster/Lincoln


No. 5 Group, RAF

Communications Flight: 3 x Auster

No. 551 Wing, RAF (forming Coningsby) to be operational 1 Jan 1946


No. 83 Squadron, RAF: 20 x Lancaster BI (FE) / BVI (FE)
No. 97 Squadron, RAF: 20 x Lancaster BI (FE) / BVI (FE)
No. 627 Squadron, RAF: 30 x Mosquito B35(PF) (detached to Woodhall Spa)

No. 552 Wing, RAF (forming Metheringham) to be operational 1 Jan 1946

No. 106 Squadron, RAF: 20 x Lancaster BI (FE) / BVI (FE)
No. 467 Squadron, RAAF: 20 x Lancaster BI (FE) / BVI (FE)
No. 544 Squadron, RAF: 20 x Mosquito PR (Met) 34 (forming Benson)


No. 553 Wing, RAF (forming East Kirkby) to be deployed in build up 1946

No. 57 Squadron, RAF: 20 x Lincoln BII
No. 460 Squadron, RAAF: 20 x Lincoln BII
No. 554 Wing, RAF (forming Spilsby) to be operational 1 Jan 1946
No. 75 Squadron, RNZAF: 20 x Lancaster BI (FE) / BVI (FE)
No. 207 Squadron, RAF: 20 Lancaster BI (FE) / BVI (FE)

Special Missions Wing, RAF (forming Waddington) to be called forward late 1945

No. 9 Squadron, RAF: 20 x Lancaster BI (FE) / BI (Special)
No. 617 Squadron, RAF: 20 x Lancaster BI (FE) / BI (Special


No. 6 Group, RCAF

Communications Flight: 3 x Auster

No. 661 Wing, RCAF (forming Yarmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada) to be
operational 1 Jan 1946

No. 431 Squadron, RCAF: 20 x Lancaster BI (FE) / BVII (FE)
No. 434 Squadron, RCAF: 20 x Lancaster BI (FE) / BVII (FE)

No. 662 Wing, RCAF (Force build-up at Wing) to be operational not specified

No. 419 Squadron, RCAF: 20 x Lincoln BII
No. 428 Squadron, RCAF: 20 x Lincoln BII

No. 663 Wing, RCAF (forming Debert, Nova Scotia, Canada) for
deployment early 1946

No. 420 Squadron, RCAF: 20 x Lincoln BII
No. 425 Squadron, RCAF: 20 x Lincoln BII

No. 664 Wing, RCAF (forming Scoudouc, New Brunswick, Canada) for
deployment early 1946

No. 405 Squadron, RCAF: 20 x Lincoln BII
No. 408 Squadron, RCAF: 20 x Lincoln BII


It is interesting to note that this initial list for No. 6 Group, RCAF
shows Lancaster's as Mk. BI (FE) and BVII (FE) and also included
Lincoln BII's. When in fact all units forming in Canada were made up
of Lancaster's that had been flown back to Canada and were in fact
Canadian made Lancaster Mk.X. (see below).


CANADA's Lancaster's contribution to Tiger Force

The Canadian group, contained No's 661, 662, 663 and 663 (Heavy
Bomber) Wings and was to be equipped with aircraft and personnel
coming directly from squadron's already operating in England within
No. 6 Group, RCAF.

As soon as formation orders had been issued, the Canadian squadrons
were re-equipped with Canadian built Lancaster Mk.X's from the FM and
KB serial number series. These aircraft, which had been built at the
Victory Aircraft Production in Malton, Ontario, had been steadily
arriving in England since mid 1944; and would allow all of the
squadron's to operate the same Lancaster variant.


The Wings formations were as follows:

No. 661 Wing, RCAF stationed at Yarmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada

No. 419 Squadron, RCAF

FM126 (spare), FM128 (spare), FM136*, FM140*,

KB721 (spare), KB748, KB722, KB783, KB839, KB841, KB851, KB854, KB857,
KB860, KB881, KB892,

* = aircraft returned to Canada too late to be assigned.

No. 428 Squadron, RCAF

Lancaster's:

FM104,

KB739, KB744, KB747, KB757, KB771, KB794, KB820, KB838, KB843, KB867,
KB878, KB889, KB891,


No. 662 Wing, RCAF stationed at Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada

No. 431 Squadron, RCAF

Lancaster's:

KB733, KB774, KB796, KB801, KB802, KB811, KB812, KB819, KB823, KB827,
KB837, KB847, KB847, KB856, KB861, KB868, KB872, KB888, KB895,



No. 434 Squadron, RCAF

Lancaster's:

KB789, KB824, KB825, KB829, KB830, KB833, KB836, KB840, KB844, KB849,
KB852, KB873, KB880, KB883, KB893,


No. 663 Wing, RCAF stationed at Debert, Nova Scotia, Canada

No. 420 Squadron, RCAF

Lancaster's:

KB885, KB886, KB898, KB908, KB909, KB910, KB914, KB923, KB927, KB928,
KB933, KB937, KB938, KB941, KB942, KB946,



No. 425 Squadron, RCAF

Lancaster's:

KB875, KB876, KB899, KB912, KB916, KB917, KB924, KB926, KB930, KB931,
KB932, KB934, KB944, KB954, KB962,

No. 664 Wing, RCAF stationed at Greenwood, Nova Scotia, Canada

No. 405 Squadron, RCAF

Lancaster's:

FM110, FM115, FM122, FM123,

KB943, KB945, KB949, KB950, KB952, KB955, KB956, KB957, KB959, KB961,
KB964, KB965, KB966, KB967, KB968, KB973, KB976, KB977, KB991, KB997,
KB999

No. 408 Squadron, RCAF

Lancaster's:

FM120, FM130,

KB877, KB905, KB907, KB913, KB919, KB925, KB929, KB939, KB947, KB948,
KB951, KB960, KB963, KB972, KB979, KB994, KB995, KB996, KB998,

In total 141 Lancaster Mk.X's were allocated to Tiger force, however
with the unforeseen disbandment Tiger Force the Canadian Government
was faced with an interesting problem. Since the original intention
was for the RCAF units to be re-equipped with Canadian built Avro
Lincolns as soon as these aircraft could be made available. The
Lancaster Mk.X's, although Canadian made, had been transferred to RAF
ownership and for several months after disbandment; Canadian built
aircraft were being operated in Canada, by the RCAF, but did not
belong to the Canadian government. The problem was resolved by late
1945 or early 1946 when ownership of the Canadian made Lancaster's
which had been returned to Canada were returned to the Canadian
Government ownership, Even so the Lancaster maintained their RAF
serial numbers.

With no requirement for a heavy bomber force the Canadian Government
decided to place hundreds of Lancaster aircraft into long-term
storage, in various disused air based in Eastern Canada. However after
several years it was realised that the damp weather environment was
not best suited for long term aircraft storage.

The decision was then made to relocate the stored Lancaster's a drier
climate which would be more indicative for aircraft storage. This so
called ideal location was determined to be in the Western Canada
prairie Province Alberta, where several closed British Commonwealth
Air Training Plan (BCATP) stations were allocated for this task. By
the late 1940, many of the Lancaster's had been flown out to Alberta
and were to remain there until the early 1950's

They force would likely have remained in storage, awaiting their final
date to be scrapped, if increasing international tensions between the
East and West had not reached point where the Canadian Government
ordered the RCAF to activate seventy Lancaster's and modify them for a
variety of roles including Maritime reconnaissance and anti-submarine
warfare.

Canadian Lancaster's were also to be modified by the Canadian
Government for Aerial Reconnaissance, Air-Sea Rescue, Navigational
Training, Photo-Reconnaissance and civilian transport duties the later
as Avro Lancastrians.

Mil-tech Bard
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Re: Lancaster Bomber Air Refuelling?

#9

Post by Mil-tech Bard » 09 Apr 2016, 15:41

More crib notes.


TIGER FORCE IN OLYMPIC/MAJESTIC NOTES

1) The UK Tiger Force was going to be under Kenney's FEAF and _not_ the 8th Air Force.

2) The first two Lancaster squadrons would carry Tall boys and arrive
operationally from Canada 15 October 1945...just in time for the
opening bell on the two-week preperation air bombardment for Operation
Olympic/Majestic.

This is from the Spaatz Papers dated 7 and 3 August 1945.

See --
7 August 1945
Attended meeting at Adm. Nimitz
headquarters at 0930.

Held press conference in USASTAF headquarters at 1100 at
which were present Admiral Parnell. Gen. Farrell . LeUay and
other officers or this headqurters . Discussion centered around
atomic bomb .

Had as guest for lunch Capt. Bouverie. Naval British Liaison
officer with Nimitz headquarters.

Discussion with Lindsay reference RAF Squadrons. Dispatched
message to Washington after receiving message from Kenney concurring
in decision to place them under him. but re-emphasized to Lindsay that
any message effecting both USASTAF and FEAF be sent through Kenney.
1700-1900 Open House held at Giles with all Wing Commanders present
as well as all Chiefs of Sections of this and the 20th AAF headquarters.

-----------------

5. Subject: Tallboy RAF Squadron (Refer Item 1,31 JULY Outgoing)

From Tiger Force Headquarters (Enciphered by Hq Transport
Command BRA from Lloyd) Nr : 2493 011415Z

To ComGen USASTAF GUAM for Spaatz

A 1711 August . Have received your message that you
cannot give firm offer of 2 Tallboy Squadrons for 10 days . This
will make it too late for squadrons to arrive in time should they
be required. We are therefore making all arrangements as if you
retain them. Loading of shipping with ground equipment is now
being moved to Canada to take advantage of shipping available
there. With these arrangements we hope to make destination by
15 October. Have informed Nimitz of proposals and sailings.
(Dist - C/S)

Mil-tech Bard
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Re: Lancaster Bomber Air Refuelling?

#10

Post by Mil-tech Bard » 09 Apr 2016, 19:58

As for the UK history prior to and including Tiger Force in-flight refueling, Please see:

Sir Alan Cobham, Flight Refueling limited

https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive ... 01820.html

http://www.afhso.af.mil/shared/media/do ... 29-015.pdf

See also --

Gardner, Brian, "Tiger Force and Flight Refueling," Journal No. 44 Royal Air Force Historical Society

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/R ... _Force.pdf

Mil-tech Bard
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Re: Lancaster Bomber Air Refuelling?

#11

Post by Mil-tech Bard » 14 Apr 2016, 19:15

Delta Tank wrote:To all,

Currently reading through "History of the Second World War, Grand Strategy, Volume V" by John Ehrman, on page 519 it states the following:
Sir Charles Portal replied that there was a distinction. The Lancaster bomber, if refuelled in the air, had a range nearly approaching that of the B.29. Without refuelling in the air these aircraft had a range of 800-900 miles.
Now, my question, is he talking about what we today consider in air refueling or some different type of in air refueling? I have never read that anyone did in air refueling from one plane to another while flying.

Mike
Mike,

So, did I kill your thread with too much information?

Clive Mortimore
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Re: Lancaster Bomber Air Refuelling?

#12

Post by Clive Mortimore » 17 Apr 2016, 22:22

PA474 the BoB flight's Lancaster was built for operations in the Far East. Owing to the war ending it did not see service as a bomber. It was rebuilt as an inflight refueling aircraft. It later went to Cranfield where it was used for airflow test on aircraft wings. These were carried upright, looking like the dorsal fin of a fish. On retirement it was transferred to the BoB Flight.
Clive

Delta Tank
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Re: Lancaster Bomber Air Refuelling?

#13

Post by Delta Tank » 19 Apr 2016, 12:31

I will respond in a day or two. I was on vacation to Germany and very busy.

Mike

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