VK 30.01 (MAN) Do any schematics survive? [Prototype Panther]

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Amnesia
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VK 30.01 (MAN) Do any schematics survive? [Prototype Panther]

Post by Amnesia » 08 Jun 2016 16:34

Hello after hearing of an alleged possible initial failed M.A.N. Panther prototype before the successful VK 30.02 (MAN) via this War Thunder Video on the Pz.Kpfw. V Panther ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-N-ffs9HpM ) I did some digging and I took to some panzer research. I acquired Panzer Tracts 5-1 (early Panther) - although with no luck in finding a strong lead to VK 30.01 schematics. So now I turn to this forum.

I know that the VK 30.02 (MAN) has a great deal of surviving schematics; although it is the 30.0->2<- part that gets me, logically there should be a VK 30.01 (MAN) schematic preceding the VK 30.02 (MAN) schematic yes? I have found a lead via Google searching, there is - supposedly an actual VK 30.01 (MAN). I found a mention of it here in a big panther prototype development tree possibly cropped from a Panzer Tract book.
Image
Website link: http://www.oocities.org/desertfox1891/p ... pment.html

I hear all about how the VK 30.02 won the contract for the new German medium panzer to beat the T-34 although I want to find more on the 'ghost' VK 30.01 (MAN) design.

The new medium panzer contract called for sloped armour inspired from the T-34-76 and supposedly the VK 30.01 (MAN) was going to lose to the VK 30.01 (D) and Hitler wanted 100-200 or so VK 30.01 (D) panzers to get the manufacturing contract but was supposedly persuaded by his staff to go with the VK 30.0? [1 or 2] (MAN) panzer.

(Side tangent:) I wonder if the VK 30.02 was redesigned as a result of Hitler's staff wanting the VK 30.01 (MAN) -and its non-T-34-76 profile- although with Hitler's staff seeing that the VK 30.01 (MAN) design was not on par with the VK 30.01 (D) in combat strength and had M.A.N. redesign the VK 30.01 (MAN) with design strength improvements copied from the VK 30.01 (D) which then subsequently resulted in the creation of the VK 30.02 (MAN) [Also that could explain the oddity of why MAN had two prototype proposals while Daimler only had one]? I do not know how plausible that design development theory is behind the VK 30.02 (MAN) although one should consider that I am making a few educated guesses based on so little information that I am aware of regarding the VK 30.01 (MAN).

What I want to know is if a VK 30.01 (MAN) schematic survives or if it existed at all; it must have, right?

Denniss
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Re: VK 30.01 (MAN) Do any schematics survive? [Prototype Panther]

Post by Denniss » 08 Jun 2016 20:56

Wasn't the 3001 program a 30t vehicle program with conventional armor that later evolved into the Tiger I ?
The 3002 was the Panther competition with vehicles from DB and MAN.
According to 5-1 MAN's VK 2002 was redesigned in 11/41 to incorporate sloped armor with much of the armor showing the layout used on their 3002.

dirk Peeters
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Re: VK 30.01 (MAN) Do any schematics survive? [Prototype Panther]

Post by dirk Peeters » 09 Jun 2016 07:35

maybe completely out of place
but VK 3001 is used in the BF program for a Tobruk building for the VK 3001 turm
00 1.jpg
I have some pictures (of the turret)
must i place them here ?
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dirk Peeters
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Re: VK 30.01 (MAN) Do any schematics survive? [Prototype Panther]

Post by dirk Peeters » 09 Jun 2016 07:39

00 2.jpg
another one
Dirk
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Amnesia
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Re: VK 30.01 (MAN) Do any schematics survive? [Prototype Panther]

Post by Amnesia » 09 Jun 2016 18:34

Denniss wrote:Wasn't the 3001 program a 30t vehicle program with conventional armor that later evolved into the Tiger I ?
The 3002 was the Panther competition with vehicles from DB and MAN.
According to 5-1 MAN's VK 2002 was redesigned in 11/41 to incorporate sloped armor with much of the armor showing the layout used on their 3002.
Yes there was a VK 30.01 Tiger prototype, although you are referring to the VK 30.01 (Henschel)
Image
http://www.aviarmor.net/tww2/tanks/germany/vk3001h.htm

Yes within Panzer Tracts 5-1 (Early Panther) there is mention of what you say, and as a matter of a fact here is the page in question:
Image

Although... There still lays a gap in between the VK 20.02 and the VK 30.02. Listen to this:
"Then, in response to reports on the success of sloped armor on Russian tanks, the VK 20.02 (M) was quickly redesigned with sloping armor in November 1942." -As in this is before M.A.N. started to work on the VK 30.02 (M.A.N.) within the Panther Programm.

Now herein is a series of points that really intrigues myself to the point that I am still made curious for answers on the details surrounding the the elusive VK 30.01 'Ghost Panther' and making myself not assume that VK the 20.02 (M) directly lead into the the VK 30.02 (M) but was rather an inspiration for the VK 30.01 (M) of which was going to initially fail to earn the Panther contract but was favoured by Hitler's staff. Of which they subsequently brought about M.A.N to redesign the VK 30.01 with the combined design strengths of both the VK 30.01 (M) and the VK 30.01 (D). Of which I suspect that these series of events eventually lead into what we know as the VK 30.02 (M). Anyway enough guessing and poking around in the dark here are my list of points that keep myself guessing and that keeps this case open for myself at least.

Point A.) "The VK 20.02 (M) already had many of the steeper angles that would be adopted for the future VK 30.02 (M) project..." -As in the VK 20.02 (M) had some features that were eventually incorporated into the VK 30.02 (M) and notice the wording "eventually" as in there could be a missing step.

Point B.) Also another puzzling thing is that this does not explain why M.A.N. was supposedly going to lose the 'Panther contact' for a medium panzer design of 30 tonnes, not a contact calling for a panzer of 20 tonnes of which the VK 20.02 was designed around - the VK 20.02 was not a 30 tonne panzer thus I suspect that M.A.N. designed the VK 30.01 possibly as an up-scaled and up-tonned version of the VK 20.02 and was going to lose the Panther contract if not for the intervention of Hitler's staff persuading Hitler to cancel his original request to produce 100 or 200 so VK 30.01 (D) over what I presume at the time was the failed little-documented VK 30.01 (M) Panther prototype design based upon the VK 20.02 (M) and thus Hitler's staff's request eventually led to a redesigned and improved VK 30.01 (M) that incorporated some valued features of the VK 30.01 (D) into what we know now as the ~30 tonne medium panzer that won the medium panzer contract aimed to counter the ~27-28 tonne T-34/76 - the VK 30.02 (M.A.N).

Point C.) "The first real look at the "Panther" is a drawing of the proposed design of the "VK 30.02 (M) mit Rheinmetall-Turm 7.5 cm Kw.K" dated 2 May 1942 (shown on opposite page)." [e.g. that schematic shown on the bottom left of the above .pdf image of page 4 of Panzer Tracts 5-1 as shown above]
-"The first real look at the "Panther" is a drawing of the proposed design of the VK 30.02 (M)..."

"Real look" as in practical, as in not absolute, also which leads myself to feel that I am not 100% sold on the VK 30.02 (M.A.N.) being M.A.N.'s first Panther proposal. Also of which my suspicions are supported by the fact that there is precedent knowledge of a failed M.A.N. 30 tonne medium 'Panther' that Hitler wanted to overlook and produce 100 or 200 (I currently fail to remember the correct number) VK 30.01 (D) 'Panthers'. Thus there must have been a precursor, an initial failed medium panzer design proposed by M.A.N. and I am not convinced that the VK 20.02 (MAN) was that initial precursor panzer. As for I have previously stated above that in the 30 tonne medium panzer contract competition in between Maschinenfabrik Augsburg-Nürnberg (M.A.N.) and Daimler-Benz (D.B.) it was a contract for a 30 tonne medium panzer to defeat the ~27-28 tonne T-34/76; it was not a contract that called for a ~20 tonne medium panzer to defeat the T-34/76; no it was a contract that requested a 30 tonne medium panzer, not a 20 tonne medium panzer. Thus additionally I believe that point further logically eliminates the VK 20.02 (M.A.N.) from being the direct precursor to the (eventually successful) prototype Panther design by M.A.N. known as the VK 30.02 (M.A.N.)

D.) I want you to please focus, even if just for a moment on the aspect of the initial failed panzer proposal by M.A.N. for my next point; please - hear me out on this. The German command wanted a new ~30 tonne medium panzer to defeat the T-34/76 and thus commissioned a competition in-between Maschinenfabrik Augsburg-Nürnberg (M.A.N.) and Daimler-Benz (D.B.) for the future German Medium panzer to defeat the T-34/76. Now please understand that this contract called for the best 30 tonne panzer design (not a 20 tonne panzer design), not like say M.A.N.'s previous design for a 20 tonne medium panzer the VK 20.02 (M). With this in mind I want you to also consider that the "VK XX.XX (X)" naming system is (to my understanding) a very practical way of organizing a great amount of vehicle classification and or specifications with very few numbers and letters used. Let us take "VK 30.01 (D)" and break it down to what all of the numbers and letters mean and or stand for. I suspect many a panzer enthusiast will know of how this panzer naming system is structured and for what letter, number and placement stands for what already but for those who do not yet - here is what have learned thus far on the panzer naming system used for the more 'prototype' kind of German panzers: VK is an abbreviation of Versuchs Kampffahrzeug (I hear that it means something like test vehicle / prototype to that effect), then after the VK is "XX.YY" - 'XX' is for the target tonnage of the vehicle (a vehicle of 30 tonnes would be written as "VK 30.YY (X)"). 'YY' is for the iteration / version of the panzer (e.g "VK 30.01 (X)" would mean Versuchs Kampffahrzeug [~test vehicle 30 tonnes first iteration] while at the end in the "(X)" bracket is an abbreviation of the firm / company that are behind the vehicle's design (e.g. if one sees "VK 30.01 (D)" or sometimes "VK 30.01 (DB)", that bracketed "D" and or "DB" stands for Daimler-Benz; "(H)" is an abbreviation of Henschel, "(K)" is an abbreviation of Krupp etc. Now with that said (to the best of my knowledge) and now with everyone on the same page and or base I highly suggest that since a "VK 30.02 (MAN)" [or Versuchs Kampffahrzeug 30 tonne second iteration Maschinenfabrik Augsburg-Nürnberg] would in practice and or in theory would follow the above panzer naming system and it would presumably be safe alone (even without any sort of other supporting knowledge e.g. knowing that there was indeed a failed M.A.N. Panther proposal before the VK 30.02 design) that even solely based on the fact that the "VK 30.02 (MAN)" used the above panzer naming system that in order to have a "VK 30.02 (MAN)" there must have been a "VK 30.01 (MAN)" for the "VK 30.02 (MAN) to have been derived from; it is the only 'lawful' way (if that makes any sense - to have a 2nd iteration there must have been a first iteration for the second iteration to spawn out of correct?).

Now with that titanic of scroller of a points list I concluded and I presume that perhaps there is a missing chapter in Panzer Tracts 5-1 along with the rest of the world at large's knowledge of the Panther's early developments. This potential missing chapter in German panzer history is most exiting for myself and I hope you my readers perhaps find it interesting too. Would it not be grand if we can together open the gates of remaining and surviving knowledge into this specter field of research and save a Panther from extinction? I believe that there is a great chance that this specific Panther prototype could be lost from history forever if it is not found sometime relatively soon and given an online display into the archive of tank enthusiasts around the world. Day by day unique, original and irreplaceable data and information on World War II is lost and I feel that the more and more that the world community looks into this vehicle's elusive history that even if it is the slightest of historical confirmation into its existence that it would be a great leap into persevering the memory of this historical and influential German combat vehicle. Even if it was just a paper project, even if it may not seem like the greatest of tanks to search for and to preserve although these may be true but it still remains that this panzer is the foundation of one of World War II's most deadly and some may even say the greatest German panzer of World War II - the Pz.Kpfw. V Panther; is that not worth saving? While I was researching this seemingly lost vehicle I nickname it the 'Ghost Panther' for I found no direct record of it yet I found a great deal of its influence - from Hitler to YouTube; it is just like a ghost. Ironically the more a scoured the web both high and low, from the bowels of obscure books to the annals of vast digital archives to find this lost vehicle I somberly and soberingly realized that my hands as well as the hands of top leading German Tank historians were seemingly empty when it can to tangible documents and historical records of this panzer. As I concluded this very post with spelling error search and destroy hunts and with this conclusion, on the brink of watching another YouTube video or another like distraction - I realized that my 'Ghost Panther' could very well become just that; the Ghost Panther that the whole world forgot about and eventually it would be as if it never existed in the future. I want to discover the initial proposal by Maschinenfabrik Augsburg-Nürnberg (M.A.N) for a 'Versuchs Kampffahrzeug 30 tonne first iteration Maschinenfabrik Augsburg-Nürnberg or also know as it abbreviated form the "VK 30.01 (M.A.N.)" for I believe that history should be preserved and not forgotten, shared and given to the whole world to enjoy and learn with it and from it, to create new experiences with it; whether that be from modelling, from film, from video games, or from beyond. I believe that Axis history has a saying does it not? That "Information not shared is lost."

Denniss
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Re: VK 30.01 (MAN) Do any schematics survive? [Prototype Panther]

Post by Denniss » 09 Jun 2016 22:17

PT 5-1 likely has a typo with 20.02M redesigned with sloped armor in 11/42, should read 1941 (see sentence directly after stating drawing of 25th November 41).
I can't find references to 3001D/M (other than WoT BS), only H/P. DB and MAN were not competing in the heavy tank race which became the Tiger (after several more steps). The 3002 project was where they were competing with roots in the VK 20 series.

Amnesia
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Re: VK 30.01 (MAN) Do any schematics survive? [Prototype Panther]

Post by Amnesia » 10 Jun 2016 23:38

Denniss wrote:PT 5-1 likely has a typo with 20.02M redesigned with sloped armor in 11/42, should read 1941 (see sentence directly after stating drawing of 25th November 41).
I can't find references to 3001D/M (other than WoT BS), only H/P. DB and MAN were not competing in the heavy tank race which became the Tiger (after several more steps). The 3002 project was where they were competing with roots in the VK 20 series.
I am beginning to think that Panzer Tracts is fantastic; but flawed.. Some of book looks to have come out in around ~1994 (point: before mass information and communication on the internet was truly available) and since then has not been updated nor newer information retro fitted into the current material, quite a shame really given how amazing the older publications are on its own and the great lengths of which were taken in their writing and structuring.

For instance I have found a few contradictions and logical 'plot holes' mostly regarded with the Panzer Tracts 5-1.

For example I have found that within the Panzer Tract sphere of published works there seems to be two VK 20.02 (M.A.N.) tanks with the same name although with relatively HUGE technical differences. VK 20.02 (M.A.N.) conceptual design on the top, and VK 20.02 (M.A.N.) redesign on the bottom.
Image
Now if we look at Panzer Tracts Panther 5-1...
Image
It says that it is the VK 20.02 (M.A.N.) redesigned in November 1942!? what? I believe that Axis Forum member Denniss is correct on that simple spelling error in the publication; A 'leap of judgement' and potential misinformation as I see it in an other wise great and informative publication into early Panther history.

Okay let us all get on the 'same page' (literally) and read the bottom left of Panzer Tracts Paper Panzer 20-1 Page 003 (I posted it above, you may have to open the image in a new tap to expand the image to read the print)

My Point: I believe that the VK 24.01 (M.A.N.) IS that 'redesigned VK 20.02 (M.A.N.) with sloping armour' for (and here is why) -
A.) That design was drafted within a week of the 20 November 1941 Panzerkommision "At the insistence of General Heinz Guderian, a special Panzerkommision arrived on the Eastern Front on 20 November 1941 to assess the T-34."- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_en ... _worldwide and as such I feel that THAT design is the first real 'Panther' because I think that the "7.5 mm Einheitsturm mit Kw.K 44"*

[*Okay, okay hold on, hold on that is it Panzer Tracts Paper Panzers 20-1! I have some serious questions regarding these spelling errors. This German turret has so many errors with it that I doubt the credibility of the whole page now and the authority of the authors on the subject if they fail so many times with the simplest of content in a field that they claim to be world experts on (of which I do believe that they are experts on although maybe they are not so 'hot' herein). Here are the errors that I have spotted so far (I do not claim to be a German tank historian nor an expert on the matter I am just an enthusiast of the subject who cannot even speak German nor has even been to Germany before! So here goes nothing):

"7.5 mm Einheitsturm with Kw.K 44" is just so wrong in so many ways in my opinion and here is a small list starting from left to right on previous spelling error:

A.) Literally first off we have an error, I see "7,5 cm" ~99% of the time when I am researching 'World War II German 75 mm guns'; not "7.5 cm" - I hear that "7,5 cm" is the correct German spelling of the '75 mm' cannons of the World War II at least. I could be wrong here but I think I may be right.
B.) This is very mirror and perhaps a bit 'nitpicky' but if you are going to dive into being German, commit to it and use the German word "mit" instead of English word "with" (it just feels more 'fully German' if that makes any sense).
C.) "Kw.K 44" or 7,5 mm Kw.K 44/1 L/70 was not even invented yet and it was a modified 7,5 mm Kw.K 42 L/70 (of which had not even been produced yet) design to fit within the confines of the the Schmalturm or 'Narrow Turret' (of which was designed for the Panther Ausf. F) and further more the "Kw.K 44" was not even developed by Rheinmetall-Borsig (of whom in were in charge of the Panther's Original Turret) but rather it was developed by Skodawerke (Source: Panzer Tracts 5-4 Panther II and Panther Ausf. F).
D.) Why is a non-German speaking unprofessional internet forum armchair amateur panzer historian even able to correct so many simple errors within a world renown and leading publication on German panzer history when the book's authors claim to be leading World War II German Panzer experts? This is most troubling for myself and the historic panzer enthusiasts community at large and it all makes myself feel that the author's judgement was very unfortunately not 'overly sound' nor 'very solid' and or it had been compromised at the time of the creation of this section of the publication of Panzer Tracts Paper Panzers 20-1. Also It just looks unprofessional and hurts the author's reputation and image for this work and his body of other works and frankly I wish that it was not so, but here it stands.]

Anyway enough of a side tangent on spelling errors in a book printed before the impact of the dawn of the Internet and the advent mass spell check.

I think that the desire for the 7,5 cm Einheitsturm mit 7,5 cm Kw.K 42 L/70 was wrought from the need to have the (1941) future German medium panzer be mounted with a turret that housed the 7,5 cm Kw.K 42 L/70 in order to achieve German technological dominance and or German technological superiority upon eastern front. I do not possess supremely accurate data nor solid credits (but I do have some credits / sources) for my following points although given the surprising lack of details and information available to myself on Germany's late 1941 and early 1942 medium panzer program / "Pantherprogramm" I have had to thus make theories into how most everything is related and what technological pursuits lead to which technological results and or 'future designs' when talking relatively to late 1941 and early 1942 medium panzer developement(s).

So after the November 1941 Panzerkommision it seems that Rheinmetall-Borsig was requested to design a standard turret for the (relative to late 1941) future medium panzer to counter the (then) T-34-76 (that was devastating the eastern front) - seems fair right?

The VK 23.01 (Krupp) tells the story of how "on 10 October 1941, a 5 cm turret with an inner turret ring diameter of 1400 mm was required, to allow the option of mounting a 7,5 cm gun turret." I take that this request is centered around mounting the 7,5 cm Kw.K 40 L/43 within a turret akin to the Pz.Kpfw. IV's turret upon Krupp's VK 23.01 panzer chassis. Although I could be wrong although by October 1941 I would find it incredibly stupid -but possible- for German command to request the mounting of the (then obsolete) short barreled 7,5 cm Kw.K 37 L/24 tank cannon on their future medium panzer. I say this given that right after that request there is a new request for an even larger turret ring although upon this new request there is a demand for the said new larger turret ring to mount the new "7,5 Einheitsturm mit 7,5 cm Kw.K 42 L/70". Although at the first request it was preliminarily calculated to have an inner turret ring diameter of 1560 mm although later (after more calculations and drafting by Rheinmetall-Borsig work on the new design of said 7,5 cm Einheitsturm mit 7,5 cm Kw.K 42 L/70 I presume) there was a second request given to Krupp to expand the inner turret ring diameter of the VK 23.01 (Krupp) to 1600 mm in order to mount the (I presume improved) 7,5 Einheitsturm mit 7,5 cm Kw.K 42 L/70. Additionally "Along with this came the requirement to slope the superstructure walls, especially the driver's front plate." - Panzer Tracts Paper Panzers 20-1. I will believe that this request was formed after the 20 November 1941 Panzerkommision and is upon the same time as when M.A.N. redesigned their VK 20.02 (M.A.N.) with sloping armour and I believe that their panzer had to have its inner turret ring increase to at least 1560 mm or 1600+ mm to accommodate the first drafts of Rheinmetall-Borsig's preliminary 7,5 cm Einheitsturm mit 7,5 cm Kw.K 42 L/70.

(Side Note: Also if the VK 23.01 (Krupp) was 23 tonnes before the 20 November Panzerkommision and had to be further widened for Rheinmetall-Borsig's preliminary 7,5 cm Einheitsturm mit 7,5 cm Kw.K 42 L/70 although could possibly off set that extra weight somewhat with a new sloping armour design; would that not call for a ~VK 24.01 (Krupp) that was designed post-November 20 1941 Panzerkommision, Pre-17 December 1941 Krupp, Oberst Fichtner (head of Wa Pruef 6) meeting that resulted in the cancellation of all ~24 tonne 'future' medium panzer designs over the request of a future ~30 tonne medium panzer? Also at that 17 December 1941 meeting of Krupp and Wa Pruef 6, Krupp argues that the 24 tonne medium panzer is almost done, not the 23 tonne medium panzer... HMMMMM (that seems to be mighty suspicious if you as myself) I think that there is a few more missing links regarding the late 1941 and early 1942 medium panzer development; did all of these preliminary 'Panther' designs get bombed out of existence in 1944 to 1945, or are they most all locked away somewhere in a German Military Archive?

With this in mind, I say that in order to take the existing medium panzer design VK 20.02 (M.A.N.) featuring non-sloping armour with an inner turret ring diameter of 1400 mm that was designed to mount the ~10 October 1941, a 5 cm turret of which I believe was subsequently designed for the 7,5 Kw.K 40 L/43 and to redesign said panzer chassis to able to:
A.) Mount a larger and heavier turret designed for the 7,5 Kw.K 42 L/70 cannon
B.) Widened the hull to allow for a 1560 mm or 1600 mm inner turret ring diameter for said 7,5 Kw.K 42 L/70 turret
C.) Slope the hull walls.

I would say that such series of requests would indeed raise the weight of VK 20.02 (M.A.N.) by... Roughly 4 tonnes. Well what a coincidence that is 20 + 4 = 24. VK 20.01 (M.A.N.) Also at that 17 December 1941 meeting with Krupp Wa Pruef 6, Krupp argues a point regarding how Wa Pruef 6 requested for a 24 tonne medium panzer, not a 23 tonne medium panzer. Thus there seems to be at least two VK 24.01 medium 'pre-Panther' panzers (Krupp and M.A.N.) with possibly a third if Daimler-Benz was called into the 'pre-Panther' designing fray of late 1941 requested by Wa Pruef 6. Even Skodawerke submitted a 24 tonne medium panzer design mounting the 7,5 cm Kw.K 42 L/70 under the designation of T-24.

Here are few points that I wish to solidify my case that the 'redesigned with sloping armour 25 November (Post-20 November Panzerkommision) 'VK 20.02 (M.A.N.)' is the missing VK 24.01 (M.A.N.) for these following reasons:

What early ~20 tonne medium panzer designed by M.A.N. has:
A.) A widened hull deigned to mount the preliminary early drafts of Rheinmetall-Borsig's preliminary 7,5 cm Einheitsturm mit 7,5 cm Kw.K 42 L/70.
B.) Sloping Armour
C.) Been designed after the 20 November 1941 Panzerkommision.
D.) Been designed before the 17 December 1941 Krupp, Oberst Fichtner (head of Wa Pruef 6) meeting that resulted in the cancellation of all ~24 tonne 'future' medium panzer designs over the request of a future ~30 tonne medium panzer.
E.) Also 99% of the time when a World War II German panzer design is redesigned it gets an new official name. I find it strictly unbelievable that the pre-20 November 1941 Panzerkommision VK 20.02 (M.A.N.) with a 1400 mm inner turret ring for the 7,5 Kw.K 40 L/43 turret akin to a Pz.Kpfw. IV has the same design name as that of the widened hull that sports a 1560 mm or 1600+ mm inner turret ring diameter designed to mount the heavier Rheinmetall-Borsig preliminary 7,5 cm Einheitsturm mit 7,5 cm Kw.K 42 L/70, along with a slopped hull redesigned post-20 November 1941 Panzer Kommision (as Panzer Tracts puts it) "VK 20.02 (M) redesigned...".

No I think that some where a bunch of late 1941 to early 1942 medium panzer documents were either lost (bombing of tank factories and design firms perhaps?) and or have not been shared to the general public for one reason or another. Perhaps the files and documents surrounding the 'pre-Panther' were so top secret (given that Germany NEEDED the Panther really badly at the time - Early 1941 to 1942) that they were perhaps classified as 'super top secret' and thus like / similar to the GRILLE 15 documents were locked away from the general public in a German military archive even to this day. Unlike the GRILLE 15 the general public does not know of the designs that were commissioned by Krupp and Maschinenfabrik Augsburg-Nürnberg as a result of Wa Pruef 6's request of a medium panzer of 24 tonnes mounting Rheinmetall-Borsig's preliminary 7,5 cm Einheitsturm(s) mit 7,5 cm Kw.K 42 L/70 and with most likely 880 mm interleaved road wheels with (insert leading medium panzer engines here) and most likely the same armour thickness layout the previous 1941 medium panzer designs although perhaps with the early VK 30.02 (M.A.N.) base amour thickness layout although I doubt that for most likely M.A.N realized that they had slightly more weight left of after upscaling their VK 24.01 (M.A.N.) design to fit with the new 30 tonne medium panzer request of the Post-17 December 1941 Krupp / Wa Pruef 6 meeting. Or Perhaps it was the other way around and the VK 30.01 (X) and VK 30.02 (X) armour thickness layouts were a result of new thicker armour requests from Wa Pruef 6. Either way I think that the VK 24.01 (Krupp) and the VK 24.01 (M.A.N.) had the same (general) base armour thickness layout (although not shapes!) as the VK 20.02 (M.A.N.) given that (from way I can tell at least with some fringe detective work) there was a no new request given by Wa Pruef 6 to the design requirements of the VK 24.01 (X) to change the ~50 mm base frontal armour thickness as was found on the last designs. I feel as if the VK 24.01 (X) designs were increased in weight most only due to the change of widening the hulls to order to mount the new Rheinmetall-Borsig preliminary 7,5 cm Einheitsturm(s) mit 7,5 cm Kw.K 42 L/70 rather than the previous turret akin to that of the Pz.Kpfw. IV mounting the 7,5 cm Kw.K L/43. Which required a smaller inner turret ring diameter of 1400 mm which is smaller than the aforementioned 1560 mm or 1600+ mm inner turret ring hull width requirements as to mount the Rheinmetall-Borsig preliminary 7,5 cm Einheitsturm(s) mit 7,5 cm Kw.K 42 L/70. Thus a larger turret ring diameter of 1560 mm to 1600+ mm compared to the previous 1400 mm means that a wider hull and subsequently heavier hull would be required and along with a heavier turret means that even without a potential increase in base armour thickness the new medium panzer with the Rheinmetall-Borsig preliminary 7,5 cm Einheitsturm(s) mit 7,5 cm Kw.K 42 L/70 would most defiantly increase in weight and an increase of ~4 tonnes (20 tonnes to 24 tonnes) feels to be quite accurate.


TL;DR I believe that I have 'found' new 'pre-Panthers'!

-The VK 24.01 (Krupp) was a 'Mini Panther' that mounts the Rheinmetall-Borsig preliminary 7,5 cm Einheitsturm(s) mit 7,5 cm Kw.K 42 L/70 and I am sure that it existed, contrary to its absence in contemporary sources and or public archives.
-The VK 24.01 (M.A.N.) was also a 'Mini Panther' and seems to actually be the "VK 20.02 redesigned with sloping armour based on drawing Tu 13947 dated 25Nov41" and had a 1560 mm to 1600+ mm inner turret ring to mount the Rheinmetall-Borsig preliminary 7,5 cm Einheitsturm(s) mit 7,5 cm Kw.K 42 L/70
-VK 24.01 (D.B.) MAY exist given how little is known on the VK 24 series and its seems that the VK 24 series was commissioned after the 20 November 1941 Panzerkommision and given that Diamler-Benz was inspired by at and or after said November 1941 Panzerkommision to design the VK 30.01 (D.B.). I will call it upwards of ~50% 'safe' to say that a 'VK 24.01 (D.B.) exists. Also the Skoda T-24 (tonne medium panzer design to counter the T-34/76) as well as the Skoda T-25 exists (which is an improved Skoda T-24). Each of these Skoda 24 tonne and 25 tonne medium panzers played a roll in the development of what would become the Panther. Even so much that Hitler eventually wanted the L/100 variant of 7,5 cm Kw.K 42 L/70 (to be developed by Skodawerke as was same as the Schmalturm 7,5 Kw.K 44/1 and 44/2 auto-loading variants) to be mounted onto the Panther although such a cannon was not ready yet. More over these Skoda T-24 and Skoda T-25 panzers were wrought from the same demand to find a medium panzer design for Germany to mass produce in 1942 onwards in order to counter the growing threat and impact of the eastern front's Russian T-34/76.
-The VK 30.01 (M.A.N.) seems to be a lengthened and perhaps slightly widened VK 24.01 (M.A.N.) with the base armour thickness layout and inner module and or components and perhaps the same road wheels as its successor the VK 30.02 (M.A.N.).

Amnesia
Member
Posts: 57
Joined: 01 Aug 2013 20:00

Re: VK 30.01 (MAN) Do any schematics survive? [Prototype Panther]

Post by Amnesia » 10 Mar 2017 19:46

I am still looking for more information on the VK 30.01 (MAN).

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