Pamyat Naroda indexes. 3,400,000+ records processed

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AMVAS
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Re: Pamyat Naroda indexes. 3,400,000+ records processed

Post by AMVAS » 17 Aug 2018 11:53

Sean Oliver wrote:
17 Aug 2018 00:49
I find it hard to understand why Pamyat Naroda didn't simply group the docs into easily downloadable PDFs to begin with. This was an obviously important project for the Russian MoD, and it is in their presumed interest to make gathering the docs as easy as possible. What did they imagine people would DO with their material anyway?
The site owners has terrific fear their materials would be downloaded by somebody and spread in the net without them.
That's the reason they invent more and more methods of "protection", which includes watermarks which they put even over photos, which makes their quality horrible. Also this includes using dynamic links to search engine.
In brief they hate researchers. When I spoke with some of their staff they directly said me - the site is not for researchers, it's for relatives of people.
The question how that people can study fate of their relatives if even researchers have problems with browsing through this giant volume of informtaion having no knowledge about its structure and absense of opportunity to download the entire dossiers looks to be rhetorical...

Mori
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Re: Pamyat Naroda indexes. 3,400,000+ records processed

Post by Mori » 17 Aug 2018 12:29

AMVAS wrote:
17 Aug 2018 11:53
In brief they hate researchers. When I spoke with some of their staff they directly said me - the site is not for researchers, it's for relatives of people.
That's insightful. I had never thought of that perspective, esp. since data has so many documents without any personal information whatsoever.

It may also be that they are afraid of what researchers can deduce from the documents and what new, disturbing conclusions historians could draw. If that's the case, it does make sense to cut user-friendliness.

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Piet Duits
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Re: Pamyat Naroda indexes. 3,400,000+ records processed

Post by Piet Duits » 17 Aug 2018 14:11

From what I have heard several times from different people, is that the Russians are terrified that researchers find information about Soviet peace proposals, even as late as in 1945.
Again, from the stories I have heard (for whatever that is worth), the last time negotiators were sent to Berlin, they were killed.

Imagine these stories to be true and be told, backed up by evidence.

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AMVAS
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Re: Pamyat Naroda indexes. 3,400,000+ records processed

Post by AMVAS » 18 Aug 2018 05:30

Piet Duits wrote:
17 Aug 2018 14:11
From what I have heard several times from different people, is that the Russians are terrified that researchers find information about Soviet peace proposals, even as late as in 1945.
Again, from the stories I have heard (for whatever that is worth), the last time negotiators were sent to Berlin, they were killed.

Imagine these stories to be true and be told, backed up by evidence.
No, you are not right. No peace proposals were possible even in 1943. silent about 1945

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AMVAS
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Re: Pamyat Naroda indexes. 3,400,000+ records processed

Post by AMVAS » 18 Aug 2018 05:31

Mori wrote:
17 Aug 2018 12:29
AMVAS wrote:
17 Aug 2018 11:53
In brief they hate researchers. When I spoke with some of their staff they directly said me - the site is not for researchers, it's for relatives of people.
That's insightful. I had never thought of that perspective, esp. since data has so many documents without any personal information whatsoever.

It may also be that they are afraid of what researchers can deduce from the documents and what new, disturbing conclusions historians could draw. If that's the case, it does make sense to cut user-friendliness.
Mostly they dislike the fact somebody can earn money working with their materials..

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Re: Pamyat Naroda indexes. 3,400,000+ records processed

Post by Art » 18 Aug 2018 07:11

Piet Duits wrote:
17 Aug 2018 14:11
From what I have heard several times from different people, is that the Russians are terrified that researchers find information about Soviet peace proposals, even as late as in 1945.
Sure those things are in the folders of the 333 Rifle Division, Soviet peace proposals. Where else can they be?

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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: Pamyat Naroda indexes. 3,400,000+ records processed

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 18 Aug 2018 08:10

For all the problems when you compare this huge effort of getting historical documents online with other countries, Russia does extraordinarily well. Tried getting something out of the Bundesarchiv recently, half of it is not catalogued, its costly slow and bureaucratic (do not get m started). Here in the UK they have just moved the Imperial War Museum archive out to Duxford 60 miles outside of London and it takes a week to get a document down from there only to realise you ordered the wrong folder, cos the cataloguing is so good.
National Archive is better, I mean Kew is at least in London even if it is the second to last stop on the Tube line (meaning it is actually in Surrey). Their online finding aids are better but little is online.
So in comparison Pamyat Naroda and the other sites are a breeze.

You got it wrong Art it is the 334th Rifle Division!

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Re: Pamyat Naroda indexes. 3,400,000+ records processed

Post by Mori » 18 Aug 2018 10:00

@Der Alter Fritz: actually the most convenient I know is the Canadian archives. All online, everything easy to download. And the Canadian army documents include *a lot* of the British.

TNA at Kew is so far the best place I have visited. It's very easy to reach thanks to the Tube. Atmosphere is user friendly. Ordering is no hassle. The reading room is super comfortable. There are countless photostands. You can store your documents for several days. Etc.

I have never been to IWM, one reason being I'm not really sure what/whether there's anything different from the mass of material at Kew. Maybe some private papers?

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Re: Pamyat Naroda indexes. 3,400,000+ records processed

Post by Mori » 18 Aug 2018 10:02

Der Alte Fritz wrote:
18 Aug 2018 08:10
National Archive is better, I mean Kew is at least in London even if it is the second to last stop on the Tube line (meaning it is actually in Surrey).
Yeah, just like French SHD is not actually in Paris but in Vincennes, 3 stops further on the metro. And Archives Nationales are in Pierrefite, at the last stop of the line to St-Denis, gosh it's so troublesome to sit on the train for a few minutes more.

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Der Alte Fritz
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Re: Pamyat Naroda indexes. 3,400,000+ records processed

Post by Der Alte Fritz » 19 Aug 2018 13:06

Canadian archives are great. I find the French archives pretty good as well with an excellent online service at Gallica.bnf.fr - for instance they have put the entire Official History of the Great War online for free and it is enormous. The National Archive at Kew has got some stuff online now but for instance the British Official History of the Great War was produced as a book reprint (quite expensive) or on CD-ROM for about £100 quid. Some things on line but not a huge amount really. Compared o the British Library which is in Central London and close to three railway terminus, TNA out at Kew is 54 minutes from Marble Arch according to Transport for London which is two hours out of my day travelling compared to the British Library or the School of Slavic Studies Library at University of London. Imperial War Museum is impossible to use for casual research.
Also (to continue my moan) the Library Lending Service has just hiked rates enormously!

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Re: Pamyat Naroda indexes. 3,400,000+ records processed

Post by Mori » 19 Aug 2018 15:59

Der Alte Fritz wrote:
19 Aug 2018 13:06
Compared o the British Library which is in Central London and close to three railway terminus, TNA out at Kew is 54 minutes from Marble Arch according to Transport for London which is two hours out of my day travelling compared to the British Library or the School of Slavic Studies Library at University of London. Imperial War Museum is impossible to use for casual research.
No, no :) TNA open at 9am, which is earlier than the other places you mention. Just take the tube around 8am: you get to Kew when it opens and you won't lose any useful time (plus you have a decent chance to have a seat in the train). If you are not a Londoner, you can also book your hotel at Kew station: easy to reach from, say, Eurostar at St-Pancras, and much cheaper than city center.

I'm a big fan of TNA. Best place I've been so far.

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AMVAS
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Re: Pamyat Naroda indexes. 3,400,000+ records processed

Post by AMVAS » 20 Aug 2018 17:57

Der Alte Fritz wrote:
18 Aug 2018 08:10
For all the problems when you compare this huge effort of getting historical documents online with other countries, Russia does extraordinarily well. Tried getting something out of the Bundesarchiv recently, half of it is not catalogued, its costly slow and bureaucratic (do not get m started). Here in the UK they have just moved the Imperial War Museum archive out to Duxford 60 miles outside of London and it takes a week to get a document down from there only to realise you ordered the wrong folder, cos the cataloguing is so good.
National Archive is better, I mean Kew is at least in London even if it is the second to last stop on the Tube line (meaning it is actually in Surrey). Their online finding aids are better but little is online.
So in comparison Pamyat Naroda and the other sites are a breeze.
I agree. Finally western archives' mateirals are less available online. silent about free from charge.

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Re: Pamyat Naroda indexes. 3,400,000+ records processed

Post by steve248 » 01 Sep 2018 16:12

Der Alte Fritz.
Although off topic here, your comment about IWM archives moving to Duxford.
Why not ask Duxford if you can view there? The carparking is better than the public transport to Lambeth.
Send me a PM for "how to"

Virginian
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Re: Pamyat Naroda indexes. 3,400,000+ records processed

Post by Virginian » 23 Mar 2019 00:15

Jeff Leach wrote:
13 Aug 2018 05:24
Der Alte Fritz wrote:
12 Aug 2018 07:38
oleg62 wrote:
27 Jun 2018 19:42
Fill in the search for the word (dad ) ( gap) (cap) and you will all new files . There and look Fund, inventory, etc.
Jeff
Did we ever work out what Oleg was saying?
No, sometimes posts are too cryptic to figure out. In such cases, I usual ask them to post in their mother tongue but this didn't work in this case either.
(dad) (gap) and (cap) appear to be the low-quality machine translations of abbreviations like ShAP ('assault aviation regiment').
Richard

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Re: Pamyat Naroda indexes. 3,400,000+ records processed

Post by fisenfender » 02 Apr 2019 22:58

Hello all)
Pamyat Naroda is a unique site. I do not think that there are similar websites in the world with so many documents. And unlike the NARA, they do not trade in strangers, even if they are captured, with documents. But the site at any time may cease to exist and close, despite the financing of the state. There are a lot of things held up by enthusiasm. (I know about such undertakings in Russia, where a lot of rare frames of German aerial photography were published on one site, but the site was closed. And the web archive will not help). Moreover, quite rare descriptions and schemes can be found in the Pamyat Naroda, for example, the scheme "capture of the control prisoner" - this was usually done before the advance of the army or the front. There are interrogations of prisoners of war, even letters come across. Also, a lot of things get there, which is forbidden for distribution in Russia, for example, a map with a scale of 500 meters - this is such a paradox.So sometimes some things are easier to identify, even by the enemy.
There are several cases downloaded from there, so if anyone needs or is interested, write me.

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