What IF the Germans concentrated Tiger tanks during Kursk?

[sitalkes]

I suppose they had the problem of hot electric engines, possibility of sparks, next to petrol, all sorted out?

[Yoozername]

Basically, these AFV, like the Panthers, were being used in a field trial. They had many issues.

About the best use for them, IMO, would be as a means to stop the armored counter-attacks in the south part of Kursk. They were misused as battering rams and wasted. The Germans only had a few days to defeat an enemy they underestimated. The Soviets might have pulled back if there was a greater penetration in the south.

[hoot72]

Title says it all. From reading 'Armor and Blood'...Showalter, it does seem that those Panzer Division, either assigned a Tiger coy. or possessing Tigers, did most of the useful hacking in the South part of the salient.

But, what if the Germans had concentrated ALL Tiger units, including the Ferdinands, into the south, and the North became more of a diversion? Model, in my mind, clearly had no real taste for attacking even with the heavy units assigned to his units. He seemed aware of dangers in this sector and probably would have liked more mobile units anyway.

Showalter does an OK job on this book, but it has some real technical groaners. Saying things like "topped up fuel tanks are a risk but tankers took them"...is patently wrong. It is actually safer to have a full tank. The book describes the grueling ordeal best at a orginizational level.

I would suggest that without the power of the Ferdinands in the North, the Northern flank would have a collapsed and the German offensive in the South would have been in real danger of being attacked or cut off by a very strong and large Russian tank force reserve if they saw an opportunity to do so.

The Ferdinands, for all the negativitity a lot of people love to throw at them actually held the Northern Flank and had a 10-1 kill ratio. They should not have been sent out front but the real problem was, there simply was not enough tanks anyways in the German army to be able to conduct a dual offensive in the North and South.

The Ferdinands should have acted as a defensive screen alongside Stugs and older Panzer Iv's and iii'S in the North with a reserve of Tiger's in the event there was a Russian offensive in the North when Kursk kicked off.

[hoot72]

Basically, these AFV, like the Panthers, were being used in a field trial. They had many issues.

About the best use for them, IMO, would be as a means to stop the armored counter-attacks in the south part of Kursk. They were misused as battering rams and wasted. The Germans only had a few days to defeat an enemy they underestimated. The Soviets might have pulled back if there was a greater penetration in the south.

Yes, this makes sense or kept them in reserve to fill gaps in the defensive line and to work in pairs as long range tank killers alongside PAK tank killers.

[hoot72]

Question. I am still confused with the make up of the German army in the north at Kursk. What did it comprise of?

[Yoozername]

Question. I am still confused with the make up of the German army in the north at Kursk. What did it comprise of?

Then how could you say this?

I would suggest that without the power of the Ferdinands in the North, the Northern flank would have a collapsed and the German offensive in the South would have been in real danger of being attacked or cut off by a very strong and large Russian tank force reserve if they saw an opportunity to do so.

[hoot72]

Question. I am still confused with the make up of the German army in the north at Kursk. What did it comprise of?

Then how could you say this?

I would suggest that without the power of the Ferdinands in the North, the Northern flank would have a collapsed and the German offensive in the South would have been in real danger of being attacked or cut off by a very strong and large Russian tank force reserve if they saw an opportunity to do so.

My confusion stemmed from the different divisions and actual types of tanks deployed.

My second comment with relation to the Ferdinand is factual. If the Ferdinands did not knock out the number of Russian tanks they did, it is very likely the Northern flank would have collapsed.

[gracie4241]

The german tanks/anti-tank forces did sensationally well as is.The tank loss ratio was approximately 4-1 in their favor(against forewarned dug in defenses to boot!!!)There is good reason to believe another 6-10 divisions committed to Manstein's front as a reserve after the crushing german victory at Prohorakov(372 -72 tanks "Glantz") would have completely ruptured the Russian southern front and allowed him to roll up the rear of the northward facing soviet forces.These additional divisions were there.(12 mobile divisions in the Med alone, and some in the Kerch bridgehead area for example ) had they been made available before the attack.The germans at best had 200 tigers and they were fairly concentrated anyway.The real problem was that the soviet forces were stronger than anticipated as were their prepared positions.The germans did very well in fact and just needed a relatively few additional reserves to cleanly break through.In for a dime in for a dollar

[Aida1]

Translation of annexe 2 to message of Gen Insp der Pz Tr Chef Gr nr 80/43

"Experiences with the s.Pz.Jg.Rgt 656( Tiger Porsche and Sturmpanzer)

I. Operational use

The s.Pz.Jg.Rgt 656 was committed within the 9. army and coupled to the 86. ID for the offensive.
To create lanes in the suspected minefields 2 PzKp (FKL) were subordinated to the regiment.
The very strong enemy artillery fire( on the first day 100 heavy and 172 light guns , 386 rocket lauchers and innumerable mortars appeared )shattered the attack of the infantry.
The Ferdinands and Sturmpanzer could not carry the attack quickly enough into the depth of the defender, because the infantry was pinned down, but stayed put and concentrated the artillery fire on them. The enemy artillery always found time to set itself up again in rear positions and to reinforce itself. The lack of a machinegun on the Panzer avenged itself.
The losses were accordingly high.
Total loss
19 Ferdinands (mostly through artillery hits on the gratings , 4 without being hit through short circuits and consecutive fire)
10 Sturmpanzer (mostly blown up by the crew after artillery or mine damage)
Disabled through mines
40 Ferdinand of which repaired until 11.07 20
17 Sturmpanzer of which repaired until 11.07 9

Mostly, only a few track links,rollers and swing arms were damaged.
These high losses through mine damage occurred despite the use of 2 PzKp (FKL)."

to be continued

[Aida1]

Translation of annexe 2 to message of Gen Insp der Pz Tr Chef Gr nr 80/43

"Experiences with the s.Pz.Jg.Rgt 656( Tiger Porsche and Sturmpanzer)"
continued
"The PzKp (Fkl) were not effective in the heavy artillery fire. Part of the radio controlled tanks was disabled during the deployment.
Each company blew 2 lanes.
The designating of these lanes by engineers was not possible because of the heavy artilery fire. Therefore, the crews did not recognize the lanes.
The further development of PzKp(FKL) and mine rollers is requested.
Despite the high losses the Ferdinand and Sturmpanzer always reached the objectives.
The Sturmpanzerabt broke through the 3rd line of the russians 5 km before the infantry in a bold advance.
This success had to be abandoned because no,armoured reserves could be moved up from the rear and the infantry did not have the force to follow.
This fact shows clearly that the decisive success against an opponent in such a deep defensive position and with artillery superiority can only be achieved in close collaboration with the infantry.
In case of the coupling of the S.Pz.Jg.Rgt with a Panzerdivision and alignment of the Panzer attack in depth with tanks and infantry in halftracks for the fast exploitation of the success, the breakthrough would have succeeded with few own losses."

[Aida1]

Translation of annexe 2 to message of Gen Insp der Pz Tr Chef Gr nr 80/43

"Particular experiences concerning the operations of S.Pz.Jg.Rgt 656

1) Weapons
The gun has proven itself fully. The lack of a machingun has shown to be a disadvantage.To eliminate this disadvantage 12 Pz III were added to the Ferdinand for close protection and destroy living targets.
2) Armour
The frontal armour was never penetrated. The side armour was penetrated by 7,62 mm from close range in a few cases.The motor covering and the roof of the battle space were penetrated by artillery hits.
Request: Cover the grating by armour plating (15-20mm), protection of the open side of this covering by a wire grating.This armour cover will at the same time prevent rain from entering the motor compartment and prevents the shortcircuiting of the electrical systems.
3)Radio
The functioning of the radios was strongly hampered by the electrical power systems.This situation is getting worse all the time.

4) Sturmpanzer

The weapon has proven itself extraordinarily.The lack of an MG was a disadvantage.Either one should fire the gun at living targets or they should not be fired upon.

5.Schürzen

The Pz Schürzen for Pz III,IV and Sturmgeschütze were rejected by the troops before the operation, because in the terrain they were quickly torn off because of defects in the atttachment. The safe protection against hits from Panzerbüchsen has clearly shown its worth after the start of the operation. The troops are now very satisfied.The attachment of the Schürzen has been improved ."

[hoot72]

One of the greatest misconceptions from Kursk is that the Ferdinand was lacking the machine gun as a sole reason for so many losses on the first and second days of the offensive.

This is not true. The majority were lost to hidden mines, artillery and technical issues.

A very small numbers were actually lost to ground infantry fire.

The other problem was the Ferdinands were employed with engineers and infantry but because of the heavy russian artillery barrages, many engineers and infantry were killed or wounded leaving the Ferdinands to do it literally on their own (taking out the russian defensive lines/bunkers)>

[Erwinn]

If the attack starts on the original date, I think it can work. Not anymore after July 5th since the Soviets turned that area into a gigantic defensive fortress.