Captured K5 (E) - looking for info

[rpk4]

A recent post here (http://www.ww2f.com/topic/58974-krupp-r ... ntry663230) about a K5 (E) has caught my attention and hopefully it will inspire some answers.

The group of photos was posted by the son of a member of the 6th New Zealand Field Regiment, part of the New Zealand 2nd Division.

I recall similar photos to the ones in the post, so I sorted them into two groups, the first being of the tunnel location, the second called the “open” location.

[rpk4]

Tunnel Location

[rpk4]

Open Location

[rpk4]

The Gun

The gun in the two photo groups share some rare similarities, giving argument that they are of the same gun, and of one of the first 3 K5 guns produced:

• The gun has the provisions for the Sprengwerk, a support for the heavy barrel that was found to be unnecessary and disappears with K5 (E) Ausf. C, the 4th K5 gun produced (Wijnstok, “Leopold”).

• The gun is missing the round auxiliary hatch on the front left side of the gondola, something distinct to the first 2 K5s produced (Wijnstok, “Leopold”).

• The gun appears to have a different color barrel - yellow versus the original dark grey on the gondola - an indication that the barrel was replaced and yet not painted. “A note of 23 May 1944 by the General of Artillery states that the two guns of Railway Battery 713 will have their barrels replaced when they have fired their remaining rounds for 10mm rifling.” (Wijnstok, “Leopold”)

So, the gun in the photos appears to be either Reichsbahn 919 201 or 919 210; an enlargement of one of the poor quality photos leans towards 919 210 being the gun’s number.

[rpk4]

The Photo Locations

No idea:

• The newly posted 4 photos are from a soldier serving with the 6th NZ Field Regiment, (PART OF NZ 2nd DIV???) - primarily Italy.

• Random websites have claimed the location as being from Montelimar, France, one claimed that the gun at the tunnel was actually “Robert.”

The New Zealand troops were not known to have been in France and the gun in these photos is too old to be Robert.

[Manuferey]

rpk4,

Thank you for starting this thread. I have been scratching my head about the K5 captured near the tunnel in Italy for a long time. I agree with you, it cannot be Robert since it was captured like Leopold at Civitavecchia.

Here is another picture with a New Zealand soldier:

K5tunnelNZ.jpg

http://uhcl.recollect.co.nz/assets/display/41892-max
Source: http://uhcl.recollect.co.nz/nodes/view/19923

Regarding the open location as being Montelimar: a major issue is that the pictures show an electrified railroad. However, electrification of the Paris-Marseilles line, which runs through Montelimar, did not start until 1946 according to wikipedia (in French):
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligne_de_ ... e_la_ligne
It is confirmed by the various pictures of the captured railway guns at Montelimar and Livron which do not show any electrified line.
Only the southwestern French railroad network was extensively electrified in 1940.

On the other hand, electrification seemed to have been already quite extensive in Northern Italy prior to WW2:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... t_in_Italy

I also agree with you that no NZ troops fought in southern France in 1944. Many US troops who took pictures of the various German guns around Montelimar on their way to Germany landed in southern French harbor of Marseilles. I don't think NZ troops follow that route.

Emmanuel

[Manuferey]

In December 1944, there will still two German E-batteries armed with two 28 cm K5 each operating in Italy: E.712 and E. 2./725. See below on the right column of the Gliederung of the Heeresartillerie in Northern Italy in December 1944 (I posted it originally on 16 Jun 2015 here:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4#p1951574



E.712 had been armed with Leopold (No. 919219) and Robert (No. 919216) until the two guns had been abandoned and captured at Civitavecchia. However, the men had been able to retreat and were re-equipped with 28 cm K5 from other batteries.

According to Guy François in his French book “Eisenbahnartillerie”, the two guns of E.712 were then No. 919210 and 919220. Therefore, if rpk4’s gun above is indeed 919210 it would have belonged to E.712.

Emmanuel

[rpk4]

Great stuff Emmanuel!

O'Rourke (Anzio Annie - She Was No Lady) states that 3 K5 batteries of 6 guns, 712 (Robert and another K5), 2/725 (Leopold and Margaret) and 765 (2 K5) were moved to Italy in mid to late August of 1943. O'Rourke also states that in late Jan./early Feb., 1 gun from 2/725 (Leopold) and 1 gun from 712 (Robert) would be put together under E.712 operational command and moved to support Anzio.

As 919201, 919210 and 919211 were the first three guns of the first production year, and since E.710, E.712 and E.713 were the first three batteries, can we assume 919201 was part of E.710, 919210 part of E.712, etc?

If so, what happened to the gun that was the other half of E.712, quite possibly K5 919210 since 1939 when E.712 was reformed? Additionally, any chance of determining its movements from Dec. 1944 and ultimately its apparent capture by NZ troops in 1945?

JB

[Manuferey]

O'Rourke (Anzio Annie - She Was No Lady) states that 3 K5 batteries of 6 guns, 712 (Robert and another K5), 2/725 (Leopold and Margaret) and 765 (2 K5) were moved to Italy in mid to late August of 1943. O'Rourke also states that in late Jan./early Feb., 1 gun from 2/725 (Leopold) and 1 gun from 712 (Robert) would be put together under E.712 operational command and moved to support Anzio.

Thank you for this information. The fact that the two 28 cm K5 guns were in fact part of two different batteries is in line with a discussion we had in 2013 here:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8#p1842248

According to a German Gliederung of November 1st, 1943, E.765 was under E.A.A. 725 near Calais France. I don’t know when it came back from Italy. It was still near Calais on June 1st, 1944.

As 919201, 919210 and 919211 were the first three guns of the first production year, and since E.710, E.712 and E.713 were the first three batteries, can we assume 919201 was part of E.710, 919210 part of E.712, etc?

It could have been true at the beginning but Guy François in “Eisenbahnartillerie” states that 919217 had belonged to E.713 (but no date).

If so, what happened to the gun that was the other half of E.712, quite possibly K5 919210 since 1939 when E.712 was reformed? Additionally, any chance of determining its movements from Dec. 1944 and ultimately its apparent capture by NZ troops in 1945?

In terms of 28 cm K5 captured in northern Italy in 1945 and besides the one encountered by NZ troops, I have found the mention of a 28 cm K5 near Trieste in 1945, handed to Yugoslavia in 1946. (see post in French of “Claudio Pristavec le Dim 21 Nov 2010, 5:12 pm on”
http://deuxiemeguerremondia.forumactif. ... oie-ferree

Since E.712 and E. 2./725 were in northern Italy with two K5 each in December 1944, there are still two K5 unaccounted for in May 1945 besides the K5 with NZ troops and the one in Trieste. Would they have remained in northern Italy or could they have retreated in Austria or Germany?

Emmanuel

[schwarzermai]

According to a German Gliederung of November 1st, 1943, E.765 was under E.A.A. 725 near Calais France. I don’t know when it came back from Italy. It was still near Calais on June 1st, 1944.
Emmanuel

765

- 27.9.1943/4.10.1943 – Heeresgruppe B/ LI. Gebirgskorps

so 765 were only a short period in italy

Uwe

[rpk4]

YES! Now we are getting somewhere!

In terms of 28 cm K5 captured in northern Italy in 1945 and besides the one encountered by NZ troops, I have found the mention of a 28 cm K5 near Trieste in 1945, handed to Yugoslavia in 1946. (see post in French of “Claudio Pristavec le Dim 21 Nov 2010, 5:12 pm on”
http://deuxiemeguerremondia.forumactif. ... oie-ferree

Thanks for this which led to another post on a Polish forum http://www.wehrmacht-odlikovanja.com/fo ... p-K5/page2 which states:

Instead OZAK the Germans brought two batteries of cannons, the Eisenbahn Batteries 725 with 2 guns of the type K 5 (E) of the caliber of 28 cm and 691 Eisenbahn Batteries with 3 guns caliber 32 cm ex - French.

Just the story of one of the pieces is known, a K 5 (E) that stood in the Mont Auremiano (today Vremščica) from which came a few times a day to shoot towards the Gorski Kotar where the advancing Yugoslav Army.

At the end of April 1945 the gun was brought up by the Germans in a railway tunnel in Fogliano Redipuglia (north of Monfalcone) and blew up with a terrible explosion that is still remembered by the locals because it had caused a fire that lasted three days.

With the explosion of the gun, which was the last wagon of the train, was launched out of the tunnel, then was brought to the Redipuglia station was delivered in 1946 to Yugoslavia as war booty.

The remains of some photographs, but is inspected by a New Zealand soldiers controlled by a sentry of Yugoslavia.

The other K 5 (E) do not know anything, looks like it was placed in the train station of Ramp to the west Pivka but nothing more.

First, the infos about E.725 - 2/725 was Leopold and Maragaret's battery. Leopold of course was sent to be part of E.712 with Robert. Could the remaining gun of E.712 (possibly 919210, the gun in question) have been added to the command of 2/725 with Maragaret (possibly 919213) thus matching up to the story above?

Second, should the story be true, are these the locations of the two places the guns were photographed?
Tunnel - https://www.google.com/maps/place/Via+d ... 13.4881159
Station - https://www.google.com/maps/dir/45.8561 ... 45.8561369

If you look at the Station site from the ground the building in the background looks quite similar to the one in this photo.

MISIDENTIFIED as Eisenbahnbatterie 749 1 HASM.jpg

It could have been true at the beginning but Guy François in “Eisenbahnartillerie” states that 919217 had belonged to E.713 (but no date).

That still works although the logic seems way to simple to actually be true:
919 201 . . . . E.710
919 210 . . . . E.712 . . . . Gun in Question
919 211 . . . . E.713
919 212 . . . . E.688 . . . . Bruno
919 213 . . . . E.2/725 . . .Margaret?
919 214 . . . . E.765
919 215 . . . . E.710
919 216 . . . . E.712 . . . . Robert

INVASION OF FRANCE May 1940

919 217 . . . . E.713
919 218 . . . . E.688
919 219 . . . . E.2/725 . . .Leopold
919 220 . . . . E.765

JB

[Manuferey]

According to a German Gliederung of November 1st, 1943, E.765 was under E.A.A. 725 near Calais France. I don’t know when it came back from Italy. It was still near Calais on June 1st, 1944.
Emmanuel

765

- 27.9.1943/4.10.1943 – Heeresgruppe B/ LI. Gebirgskorps

so 765 were only a short period in italy

Uwe

Thank you, uwe.

Emmanuel

[Manuferey]

YES! Now we are getting somewhere!

Second, should the story be true, are these the locations of the two places the guns were photographed?
Tunnel - https://www.google.com/maps/place/Via+d ... 13.4881159
Station - https://www.google.com/maps/dir/45.8561 ... 45.8561369

If you look at the Station site from the ground the building in the background looks quite similar to the one in this photo.

JB

JB,

The building looks definitely the same. It's the right train station ! Great job.

But I have a hard time to see the tunnel on Google Street View.

In terms of 28 cm K5 captured in northern Italy in 1945 and besides the one encountered by NZ troops, I have found the mention of a 28 cm K5 near Trieste in 1945, handed to Yugoslavia in 1946. (see post in French of “Claudio Pristavec le Dim 21 Nov 2010, 5:12 pm on”
http://deuxiemeguerremondia.forumactif. ... oie-ferree

Doing some research in the meantime, I have found that the 2nd NZ division actually fought its way to Trieste. And it included a "6th Field Regiment" among its troops.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2nd_New_Zealand_Division
Therefore, I've come to the same conclusion as you that the K5 on the pictures with the NZ troops and the one mentioned near Trieste is one and the same.

It could have been true at the beginning but Guy François in “Eisenbahnartillerie” states that 919217 had belonged to E.713 (but no date).

919217 can be seen on page 41 of Wijnstock's book. There is a series of pictures (from ECPAD - the French Army's picture archive website) of the gun in an article in the French magazine 39-45 and No. 919217 is clearly visible next to the aiming stand. It looks like this gun had provisions for a Sprengwerk and had the circular hatch on the front left unlike the first two guns. This would make it the 3rd built gun and an Ausf. B, wouldn't it?

Emmanuel

[rpk4]

There is a series of pictures (from ECPAD - the French Army's picture archive website) of the gun in an article in the French magazine 39-45 and No. 919217 is clearly visible next to the aiming stand.

Having trouble finding these, any chance you could post a link or images?

JB

[Manuferey]

JB,

The ECPAD pictures are not reachable on line. Here are some pictures from the article I referred to:

28 cm K5 - Mag 39-45 -1.jpg

28 cm K5 - Mag 39-45 -2.jpg

28 cm K5 - Mag 39-45 -3.jpg

28 cm K5 - Mag 39-45 -4.jpg

Emmanuel