Captured K5 (E) - looking for info

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rpk4
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Re: Captured K5 (E) - looking for info

#16

Post by rpk4 » 13 Sep 2016, 00:57

Manuferey wrote:But I have a hard time to see the tunnel on Google Street View.
Me too. But the south side of the aerial view is consistent with the curve of the track as well as the geography of the tunnel entrance. Additionally, it is the only tunnel within a reasonable distance to the station in Redipuglia and, if the gun was in fact discovered on the southside of the tunnel, the barrel direction matches with the short push to the station.
Manuferey wrote:No. 919217 is clearly visible next to the aiming stand. It looks like this gun had provisions for a Sprengwerk and had the circular hatch on the front left unlike the first two guns. This would make it the 3rd built gun and an Ausf. B, wouldn't it?
Nice catch and yes I would agree. But that completely blows my Reichsbahn number theory out of the water. I need to re-examine the K5 (E) serial number source as well as Wijnstok's sources for the info concerning differences between Ausf. A - Asuf. D.
Manuferey wrote:It could have been true at the beginning but Guy François in “Eisenbahnartillerie” states that 919217 had belonged to E.713 (but no date).
As with everything, there's always a conflict. It seems the magazine article you posted identifies 919217 as part of E.765, so here we go again...

At least the story of the gun in the picture is coming together.

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Re: Captured K5 (E) - looking for info

#17

Post by Manuferey » 13 Sep 2016, 02:16

rpk4 wrote:
Manuferey wrote:It could have been true at the beginning but Guy François in “Eisenbahnartillerie” states that 919217 had belonged to E.713 (but no date).
As with everything, there's always a conflict. It seems the magazine article you posted identifies 919217 as part of E.765, so here we go again...
At least the story of the gun in the picture is coming together.
919217 ended up his career in Sluiskil, Netherlands, as part of E.713. There were pictures of it in a website that is unfortunately closed today:
http://www.k5e.nl/919217-p/sluiskil-spo ... 919217-p3/

See infos in this thread in 17-18 February 2014:
Re: K5 Railway Artillery Gun
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&start=45

Emmanuel


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Re: Captured K5 (E) - looking for info

#18

Post by rpk4 » 15 Sep 2016, 20:04

Manuferey wrote:According to Guy François in his French book “Eisenbahnartillerie”, the two guns of E.712 were then No. 919210 and 919220. Therefore, if rpk4’s gun above is indeed 919210 it would have belonged to E.712.
I was looking again into batteries/guns and this caught my attention. I do not have that book (as of yet), but is there a date to that info? Since Robert 919216 was captured in June 1944 as part of E.712 with Leopold 919219, doesn't make sense unless it was after June 7, 1944.

But does that mean 919220 was already in Italy? E.2/725? Somehow 2 more guns went to Italy unless they were already there . . .

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Re: Captured K5 (E) - looking for info

#19

Post by Manuferey » 15 Sep 2016, 22:47

JB,

There is no date in Guy François' book for the info. In the same table, GF also mentions 919216 & 919219 with E.712 in 1944 as Anzio Annie. No info on the guns' numbers for E.2./725.

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Re: Captured K5 (E) - looking for info

#20

Post by Manuferey » 15 Sep 2016, 23:45

[quote="rpk4] But does that mean 919220 was already in Italy? E.2/725? Somehow 2 more guns went to Italy unless they were already there . . .
JB[/quote]

JB,

There is a propaganda picture of 919220 on this cover page of Wolfgang Guekelhorn in his 2014 book "Eisenbahnartillerie ..."
(see here for excerpts:
http://www.helios-verlag.com/booklets/e ... lerie.html).

On the top left of the 2nd page, there is a caption for this photo which indicates that 919220 belonged to E.712 when stationed at Hydroquent (near Calais), that it saw action afterwards in Russia and Italy and ended up in ... Trieste !

Emmanuel

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Re: Captured K5 (E) - looking for info

#21

Post by rpk4 » 16 Sep 2016, 00:21

Manuferey wrote:There is a propaganda picture of 919220 on this cover page of Wolfgang Guekelhorn in his 2014 book "Eisenbahnartillerie ..."
(see here for excerpts:
http://www.helios-verlag.com/booklets/e ... lerie.html).

On the top left of the 2nd page, there is a caption for this photo which indicates that 919220 belonged to E.712 when stationed at Hydroquent (near Calais), that it saw action afterwards in Russia and Italy and ended up in ... Trieste !
Image

Emmanuel,

That is great stuff! That backs up the reference to a second gun that was found at the time of the K5 this post is about. I feel pretty confident that the photos are of 919210, so E.712 contained 919210 and 919220. But how does 919216 Robert fit in with E.712?

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Re: Captured K5 (E) - looking for info

#22

Post by rpk4 » 19 Sep 2016, 17:34

919220.jpg
919220.jpg (23.17 KiB) Viewed 1891 times
Just found this captioned photo in Tank Power vol. CXLIX 408:

"A 28cm k5 (E) No. 919220 gun of the 710th or 713th Eisenbahn Artillerie Batteriegoing into a Dom Bunker in Hydrequent, France in 1941."

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Re: Captured K5 (E) - looking for info

#23

Post by Manuferey » 20 Sep 2016, 01:45

JB,

This is Bundesarchive picture No. 101I-227-0274-06A.

It is part of the same series as this one:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... 3%BCtz.jpg

I have not been able yet to find a picture of this series where the Reichsbahn number is readable.

According to Alain Chazette in his 2008 book Atlantikwall: Mythe ou Réalité , E.712 was the railway battery positioned at Hydrequent (Stp 192 Bismarck), E.713 was at the dombunker of Pointe-aux-Oies (Wn 298 Grabelweihe) and E.710 at Nieulay (Stp 89 Fulda) near Calais. Knowing Alain's work, I assume that the information is based on actual German maps.

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Re: Captured K5 (E) - looking for info

#24

Post by rpk4 » 24 Sep 2016, 01:17

This is going to haunt me for years.

We know, for sure, that E.712 with 919216 Robert and 919219 Leopold (both Ausf. C and both presumed to be built in 1941) were captured June 1944 in Civitavecchia. E.712 was one of the first 2 batteries designated, so it would make sense that one of the first 2 K5's produced would be part of the battery - 919210, the gun in question. Three batteries were sent to Italy in 1943 - E.712, E.2/725 and E.765 (O'Rourke):
The other two batteries arrived in Italy approximately at the same mid-September date. Battery 2/725, with guns names “Leopold” and “Margaret,” was transported by the 21st to the small mountain village called Pontemoli, . . . 32 kilometers from the naval bastion of La Spezia. Battery 765 was south of them in the Lucca, Pisa and Viareggio areas of the Arno River region.
E.712 - 919214 Robert and 919210(?)
E.2/725 - 919219 Leopold and 919XXX Margaret
E.765 - 2x K5 (E)

With a reference to 919220 serving in Italy and being part of E.712, maybe that's Margaret? Or maybe Maragret was 919210? I realize that guns were moved around. Unsure of the fate of E.765, but it only makes sense that 919210 and 919220 were the guns captured near Trieste, although pictures only exist of 1, 919210, the other story of a captured gun seems to be rumor.

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Re: Captured K5 (E) - looking for info

#25

Post by Manuferey » 24 Sep 2016, 02:55

JB,

We need to keep looking at pictures of K5 in the Pas-de-Calais before 1943 since E.712, E.2./725 and E.765 were stationed there and try to find Reichsbahn numbers :idea: . The difficulty is that E.710 and E.713 were stationed in that area as well with 28 cm K5.

Regarding Trieste, a source mentioned that the other gun was an ex-French 320 mm railway gun.

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Re: Captured K5 (E) - looking for info

#26

Post by rpk4 » 16 Nov 2016, 18:08

Have received a response from a historian in Trieste (mille graze Claudio!) concerning 919210 (Google translated, my Italian is not good):
Claudio wrote:The main source of information on this topic is the monumental book by Stefano di Giusto - Operationszone Adriatisches Küstenland (OZAK) - Udine, Gorizia, Trieste, Pula, Rijeka and Ljubljana during the German occupation 1943 - 1945 to 2005 Friulan Institute for History of the Liberation Movement Udine.

As of March 10, 1945 the book announces that employed by the LXXXXVII. Armee-Korps among other Heerestruppen were the Eisenbahnartillerie: 712, 2./725, 691 that were controlled by the command, the Eisenbahn-Art.Abt.Stab 646, which was directly subordinated to LXXXXVII. Armee-Korps.

The three Eisenbahn-Artillerie-Batteries were armed with two rail guns 28 cm K5 each for Bttr. 712 and 2./725; 3 rail guns 32 cm 651 French production for Bttr. 691. (Bundesarchiv - Militärarchiv (BA-MA), Freiburg i.B.- RH 2/2962.)

According to di Giusto it was long-range guns mounted on special bogies, usable for anti-ship shot or a bridgehead in case of an enemy landing.

One of the batteries, armed with 28 cm K5, was based in Divaccia (Divača); another of shooting positions provided for in the event of enemy landings for this battery was south of Erpelle - Cosina station (Hrpelje), where they were also carried out the exercise shoots towards the coast.

It seems that the two other batteries were respectively located in the San Pietro of the Karst (Pivka) and the Monte Santo (Šmaver), near Gorizia, but there is no reliable information about it. Another rail gun was hidden in a mountain tunnel Auremiano Mountain (Vremščica) at Cossana, where only came to shoot in support of the anti-partisan operations.

This K5 cannon was abandoned by the Germans during their retreat near the village of Fogliano and then taken by the Allies in the Fogliano - Redipuglia station May 1945.

I have found that in 1946 the cannon was sent as spoils of war in Yugoslavia, remained for years in Fiume (Rijeka) were then lost track of him.

The memories of the other guns were lost, especially for their model and probably because they were moved to not allow air strikes or partisans.

We need to remember that in this period lacked OZAK bodied men that today could remember these guns. Either they were in Germany as forced laborers, or with the partisans who used them far from their countries of origin.

Of San Pietro del Carso and near Erpelle - Cosina I have no news, in fact Divaccia there was a railway cannon but do not know what kind. Near Orlek I found the place where he had one of these guns as indicated also by the inhabitants of the nearby village, but this do not know the type.

Some people were talking about another piece next to Aurisina station that has the tracks with curves that allow to direct the cannon, but it is a very vague indication.

Instead of Gorizia in the area some elders remembered a rail gun but do not know what model. It was hidden in a tunnel near the station of Gorizia - Montesanto, then was moved to the small San Mauro station (Štmaver) in the river valley Isonzo (Soča). It seems that the piece was later moved by the Germans during their retreat to the bridge near the Canale d’Isonzo (Kanal) that was being bombed by Allied planes did not support his weight, then it was abandoned and demolished on the spot.

Also on the origin of these cannons information they are few, according to the book of the French Artillery General Francois Guy - Eisenbahnartillerie - 2006 Edit. Histoire - Paris, the K5 came from the coast of the English Channel and the historic of Trieste Diego de Henriquez had collected the testimony of a German gunner who said that the K5 had fired on Leningrad then went to defend the "Gothic Line" in Italy and the end were in Trieste. 32 cm French unfortunately I never found news!
O'Rourke (Aznio Annie) states:
…Captain Borchers’ gun battery finished their war by pushing their two guns into a tunnel in the Trieste area of Yugoslavia and destroyed them. Then they marched in small groups toward Germany, with both Borchers and Sauerbier arriving home within a matter of weeks.
If this is all true, it looks like 919210 ended its war as part of E.2/725, but we still do not know if it was originally part of E.712 or is this . . . Margaret?

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Re: Captured K5 (E) - looking for info

#27

Post by Manuferey » 17 Nov 2016, 21:04

Thanks for the info, JB.

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Re: Captured K5 (E) - looking for info

#28

Post by rpk4 » 02 Dec 2017, 17:33

fogliano-color.jpg

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Re: Captured K5 (E) - looking for info

#29

Post by LuigiCantoni » 25 May 2020, 09:29

I have joined this forum late but I have some information that might be of value.
I saw some comments by another person who is from Gassano in northern Tuscany which is where my family is from also (we are next on the rail line) a small village called Soliera Apuanna (MS).
What he said his grandfather said to him is broadly the same as what my father had said to me. Here is the information.

There was a large German gun located on our railway line and it used to hide in a tunnel and the tunnel must have been the one at Gassano. It would come out, shoot and go back and hide.
Our train line is not electric, it still is not and we are very hilly -low mountains so any photo I have seen cannot be in our location.
My father thought it was the largest rail gun outside of Germany that the Germans had. Obviously that is not 100% correct. The K5 would make it the largest in Italy so that makes what he said sort of true.
I have been trying to gather various information about the war and our part of Italy and was giving up hope of getting confirmation about the rail gun and so am delighted to find this forum and some others that mention these large guns in Italy (other then just Anzio).

What I can also add is that my father said that at the very end of the war (our part fell just 1-2 weeks before the end around mid-late April) the German's pushed the gun off the bridge near our village. I don't know how they could have done that but maybe they had some jacks our something. If that was correct then it would have to have been scrapped as there would be no way to do anything with it on the river bed so it must have been cut up.

I am trying to work out which Germans were stationed at our village also. My father confirmed (like his Grandfather) that it was an SS group there but from the records I have found they appeared to be the 90th Light Infantry Division (well what was left of them at that time). This does not match what my father told me and also they would have been there much earlier then when the 90th would have arrived thus I am unsure which ones they were. Our Village was very lucky as the SS stationed there appear to have not done any war crimes (which is again what my father said) although many were done around us.

So my contribution is that it is very likely that one K5 was used right up until just before the end of the war and was scuttled (thus cut up etc) to stop it falling into Allies hands in the Fivizzano locality in MS Tuscany.

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Re: Captured K5 (E) - looking for info

#30

Post by Bucko » 02 Nov 2020, 19:46

Hello,
See here https://www.ilcorriereapuano.it/2017/01 ... ontremoli/
Guess this is the same gun mentioned but further up the valley.
I have only just started research on the above, forgive me if this is common knowledge.

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