How would you actually defeat and conquer the USSR during WW2?

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Michael Kenny
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Re: How would you actually defeat and conquer the USSR during WW2?

Post by Michael Kenny » 21 May 2017 05:31

stg 44 wrote:


Of course you could also check this:
http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/cgsc/carl/w ... 1_1945.pdf
CHAPTER VIII. EQUIPMENT
Section V. ENGINEER EQUIPMENT
9. Mechanical Equipment
a. 6-TON MOBILE CRANE (Sd. Kfz. 9/1) (Drehkran Kraftwagen 6 t.). This crane is mounted on the chassis of the 18-ton semi-tracked vehicle (Sd. Kfz. 9). It has a telescopic jib mounted on a ball-bearing base, which permits a traverse of 180 degrees and an adjustment for ground slope up to 12 degrees in any direction. The jib has two radii of operation according to the lifting capacity: 6 tons for the smaller radius and 4 tons for the larger radius.
Used for Tank Maintenance and not as a construction vehicle. Pretty rare even for that purpose as well.

It seems you are unaware of the many 1000s of Soviet Tractors the Germans captured as well.

Here is what they books you posted earlier look like in real life rather than Google search downloads................
Panther grillef462.jpg


Panther grillef463.jpg
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T. A. Gardner
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Re: How would you actually defeat and conquer the USSR during WW2?

Post by T. A. Gardner » 21 May 2017 07:43

Richard:

I have had a particular interest in German construction machinery for a while. Pictures of bulldozers in German use are as rare as hen's teeth. Here's a couple of ones I've found of Lanz Bulldog tractors with a blade, but they are in civilian use.

Image

Image

Image

Image

One reason is Lanz, along with other crawler and wheeled tractor manufacturers made these vehicles in the hundreds per year pre-war and discontinued production by 1940. Tractors, and other construction machinery was almost non-existent in Germany pre-war and became even rarer during the war. What did exist wasn't in the military but rather in either civilian use, or with organizations like OT.

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Re: How would you actually defeat and conquer the USSR during WW2?

Post by Stiltzkin » 21 May 2017 09:05

1.By having more manpower (e.g. China) or through a prolonged war (since the very beginning), making it industrial/economic, utilizing the exchange rate to the maximum, resulting in a depletion of their manpower. In fact (second to Zetterling), a calculation demonstrates that they would run out of men first.

2. By not leading a war of extermination, persuading more people to join their cause. They destroyed any effective European defence, an alliance of multiple (most powerful) nations was historically not possible.
Last edited by Stiltzkin on 22 May 2017 00:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How would you actually defeat and conquer the USSR during WW2?

Post by antwony » 21 May 2017 13:12

Stiltzkin wrote:2. By not leading a war of extermination
Do you think the Nazi's could have conducted a war that wasn't about racial extermination?

I' d argue that if Germany had a more competent, efficient (and to borrow one of Guaporense's terms) first world administration, they wouldn't have allied themselves to the Soviet Union and started World War 2 making this thread,and probably the whole forum, irrevelant.
Stiltzkin wrote:persuading more people to join their cause. They destroyed any effectice European defence, an alliance of multiple (most powerful) nations was historically not possible.
Once again, would the Nazi's actually be Nazi's if they were interested in persuading people?

And I'm not sure who these nations are. I suppose; France, (maybe) Spain and Portugal, (hypothetically) the Turks. Nazi Germany had plenty of support from most of Europe and economic controlled it. They didn't prove themselves the best ally or a competent boss.

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Re: How would you actually defeat and conquer the USSR during WW2?

Post by Richard Anderson » 21 May 2017 17:48

T. A. Gardner wrote:I have had a particular interest in German construction machinery for a while. Pictures of bulldozers in German use are as rare as hen's teeth. Here's a couple of ones I've found of Lanz Bulldog tractors with a blade, but they are in civilian use.
Dammit Terry, stg 44 was supposed to do his own homework. :lol:

Yes, the 100,000 (to 1942 when the Mannheim factory was bombed out) Lanz series of farm tractors with their c. 12-23 drawbar HP range really do compare to the 82,097 wartime built military Caterpillar, Allis-Chalmers, Cleveland Tractor, and International Harvester construction tractors operating in the 36 to 140 drawbar HP range...don't they?

The few Lanz Bulldogs taken into military service were mostly used as aircraft and bomb tugs by the Luftwaffe and as snowplows to clear airfields in the East (its simple design facilitated operations in the cold). The USAAF used the M2 Tractor and the 1 1/2-ton 4x4 Light Truck for similar duties. The rest of the Lanz vehicles remained farm and utility tractors.
One reason is Lanz, along with other crawler and wheeled tractor manufacturers made these vehicles in the hundreds per year pre-war and discontinued production by 1940. Tractors, and other construction machinery was almost non-existent in Germany pre-war and became even rarer during the war. What did exist wasn't in the military but rather in either civilian use, or with organizations like OT.
Actually, the 100,000th was reportedly completed in 1942, before the factory was bombed out, but yes, production slowed to a trickle in 1939 as they were turned to sub-component manufacture, like much of the rest of the automotive industry built up in the 1920's and 30's.
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Re: How would you actually defeat and conquer the USSR during WW2?

Post by Stiltzkin » 22 May 2017 00:22

Do you think the Nazi's could have conducted a war that wasn't about racial extermination?
No, absolutely not, making this an oxymoron.
I' d argue that if Germany had a more competent, efficient (and to borrow one of Guaporense's terms) first world administration, they wouldn't have allied themselves to the Soviet Union and started World War 2 making this thread,and probably the whole forum, irrevelant.
True, but its not the administration what cost them the war (a competent adminstration though, would have not decided to gamble and sent their entire labour force on every front in such a short timeframe), it was the lack of manpower in military age, which they ran out of, the only difference between defeat and victory (the other noteworthy variable would be the geostrategical location).

Though there is one thing people forget: Birds of a feather flock together, so dictatorships always form alliances if they can profit from real politics (of course if theres nobody else left, they will then engage each other, because of their very "unsaturated" nature).

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Re: How would you actually defeat and conquer the USSR during WW2?

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 22 May 2017 03:22

Often wondered how viable the DROPSHOT plans were...

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Re: How would you actually defeat and conquer the USSR during WW2?

Post by BDV » 22 May 2017 15:59

Richard Anderson wrote:Based on going on forty years interest and research in the subject, as amateur and professional, in which, curiously enough, I have yet to find a German example of a construction tractor like a bulldozer.
From the too little, too late files, I suppose:

Image
Panther-Dozer

(from Panzerserra Bunker)
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

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Re: How would you actually defeat and conquer the USSR during WW2?

Post by T. A. Gardner » 22 May 2017 16:10

BDV wrote:
Richard Anderson wrote:Based on going on forty years interest and research in the subject, as amateur and professional, in which, curiously enough, I have yet to find a German example of a construction tractor like a bulldozer.
From the too little, too late files, I suppose:

Image
Panther-Dozer

(from Panzerserra Bunker)
Hardly representative. That's a one-off, improvised design, not a production vehicle.

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Re: How would you actually defeat and conquer the USSR during WW2?

Post by BDV » 22 May 2017 17:53

T. A. Gardner wrote: From the too little, too late files, I suppose:
Panther-Dozer

(from Panzerserra Bunker)


Hardly representative. That's a one-off, improvised design, not a production vehicle.

What part of "Too Little, too late" does not fit the situation?
Nobody expects the Fallschirm! Our chief weapon is surprise; surprise and fear; fear and surprise. Our 2 weapons are fear and surprise; and ruthless efficiency. Our *3* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency; and almost fanatical devotion

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Re: How would you actually defeat and conquer the USSR during WW2?

Post by Richard Anderson » 22 May 2017 19:17

BDV wrote:
T. A. Gardner wrote: From the too little, too late files, I suppose:
Panther-Dozer

(from Panzerserra Bunker)


Hardly representative. That's a one-off, improvised design, not a production vehicle.

What part of "Too Little, too late" does not fit the situation?
That it was post-war? This, the demiling of the Panther.
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Re: How would you actually defeat and conquer the USSR during WW2?

Post by T. A. Gardner » 22 May 2017 19:38

Richard Anderson wrote:[
That it was post-war? This, the demiling of the Panther.
From what I know of it, it was a one-off old Panther D model that was converted to be used for clearing rubble from bombing raids. No indication on when the conversion was made, but it is likely it was during the war since at least one photo of it shows a man in a Wehrmacht uniform on the turret. The vehicle might well have been used postwar as well as another photo shows a civilian crew.

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Re: How would you actually defeat and conquer the USSR during WW2?

Post by Richard Anderson » 22 May 2017 21:55

T. A. Gardner wrote:
Richard Anderson wrote:[
That it was post-war? This, the demiling of the Panther.
From what I know of it, it was a one-off old Panther D model that was converted to be used for clearing rubble from bombing raids. No indication on when the conversion was made, but it is likely it was during the war since at least one photo of it shows a man in a Wehrmacht uniform on the turret. The vehicle might well have been used postwar as well as another photo shows a civilian crew.
Can't check right now but iirc a high res of the photo she's the uniform jacket is same insignia and so also a postwar demiled item.
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Re: How would you actually defeat and conquer the USSR during WW2?

Post by Stiltzkin » 22 May 2017 23:44

What part of "Too Little, too late" does not fit the situation?
There was never a "too little, too late". If the situation is unchanged (IRL vs hypothetical), then the chance of winning would not be determined by too late. The fundamental problem people have with understanding the outcome of the war is that it is mostly determined by the massive numerical superiority of the enemy in the East, which is indirectly independent from "competence" and "incompetence" of the Reich.
Economic factors, logistics and weather conditions are significant factors and variables in this conflict, but do not fully explain the outcome of the war. The best way to put it: Had the German Army, the NSDAP etc. acted with 100% competence (that is of course, how one defines it, I specifically refer to the way they have historically conducted the war), the outcome would have been still the same, should they enter and attempt to resolve the conflict in the way they historically did. The war was decided the moment their forces halted infront of Moscow. What followed was simply the consequence of a tactically superior force sitting on the Soviets neck, the only reason why the Wehrmacht survived for 3 more years deep in enemy territory.

They did not possess the insight and informations we have today. At Kursk, they still misjudged the USSR's manpower reserves, they were only partly aware of the dimensions. Keeping on the pressure from 41-43 was due to the fact that if the war would continue for a longer period, the chances for the opening of other fronts would occur,"we do not want another Verdun" (which it did) - the primary goal was still knocking the USSR out of the war, preferrably before December 42.
When the desired outcome was not achieved, they panicked, while their thinking behind it was "our sophisticated engineering and superior industry will save us", which it did not. You could have kept producing things indefinitely, it would have not made any impact on the enemy whatsoever (to quote industrials "[im Grossraum] laufend Schrott produziert", there were tons of assets procued in the Grossraum which cannot be fully assessed today, second to Scherner and Streb, Wagenführs data is useless it only gives info on Anlage A goods, which are just part of the Gouvernement), i.e. there was noone left to wield these weapons. The very reason why Germany could keep up the fight up until 45 against such an overwheliming Alliance were their economic strength, ingenuity and discipline and not shortcomings in innovations. Lack of manpower was the reason.
Their approach in defeating the USSR would have to be different, their diplomacy and policies in Europe would have to change.

Improvement of the structures and dozers would have been useful in the prolonged attempt to defeat the USSR (this is of course useless for their historical "Blitz" campaign), basically they would do it like Caesar in Gaul.

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Re: How would you actually defeat and conquer the USSR during WW2?

Post by T. A. Gardner » 23 May 2017 00:07

Richard Anderson wrote:
T. A. Gardner wrote:
Richard Anderson wrote:[
That it was post-war? This, the demiling of the Panther.
From what I know of it, it was a one-off old Panther D model that was converted to be used for clearing rubble from bombing raids. No indication on when the conversion was made, but it is likely it was during the war since at least one photo of it shows a man in a Wehrmacht uniform on the turret. The vehicle might well have been used postwar as well as another photo shows a civilian crew.
Can't check right now but iirc a high res of the photo she's the uniform jacket is same insignia and so also a postwar demiled item.
Here's a similar vehicle with the photo dated 30.3.44

Image

This one clearly has a Wehrmacht NCO on the vehicle:

Image

And, here the crew (?) are civilians

Image

In that photo you can see the guy standing behind the blade holding what appears to be a hand wheel I would presume raises and lowers the blade in some manner.

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