30. Schnelle Brigade

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yantaylor
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30. Schnelle Brigade

Post by yantaylor » 30 Jun 2017 16:57

Hi everyone.

I have been re-searching the various German units which were involved on d-day 6th June, and the question I have is, was the 30. Schnelle Brigade and 989. Schwere Artillerie Abteilung ever attached to the 716 infantry division?

I have found this on both of these formations;

30. Schnelle Brigade
Commander: Oberstleutnant H.F. Von Aufsess
Brigade Stab
513. Schnelle Abteilung [Bicycle]
517. Schnelle Abteilung [Bicycle] [5 x 4.7cm Pak (t) auf Pz.Kpfw 35R (f)]
518. Schnelle Abteilung [Bicycle]
752. Infantry Regiment [attached from 752nd Infantry Division]

989. Schwere Artillerie Abteilung
Commander: ??????????????????????????
Stab Batterie
1/989. 4 x 12.2cm sFH 396 (r)
2/989. 4 x 12.2cm sFH 396 (r)
3/989. 4 x 12.2cm sFH 396 (r)

Regards
Yan.

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jpz4
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Re: 30. Schnelle Brigade

Post by jpz4 » 02 Jul 2017 11:27

Schnelle Brigade 30 was an independent formation (Heeresgruppe-Reserve). It had nothing to do with Grenadier Regiment z.b.V. 752 other than being stationed in its secctor. (The Regiment in turn had nothing to do with any division). On D-Day LXXXIV.A.K. requested permission to commit the Brigade in the sector of the 716.I.D. and this was approved. It mainly saw action in the sector of the 352.I.D. though.

s.Art.Abt.989 was listed alongside the division before the invasion. This often indicates a units is subordinated to it but it was still a Heeresgruppe-Reserve at the same time.

BTW, please get the names of these units correct. We've explained their numbering before.

CNE503
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Re: 30. Schnelle Brigade

Post by CNE503 » 02 Jul 2017 12:41

yantaylor wrote: 752. Infantry Regiment [attached from 752nd Infantry Division]
There was no 752. Infanterie Division, neither in Normandy, nor in France, nor in USSR, nor in Germany. This unit just didn't exist...

CNE503
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yantaylor
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Re: 30. Schnelle Brigade

Post by yantaylor » 02 Jul 2017 13:21

Sorry CNE503, That should have read 362th ID.

Jpz, were have I got the numbering wrong?
I have listed the batteries in Arabic and not in Roman, which I used to do.

Yan.

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Re: 30. Schnelle Brigade

Post by CNE503 » 02 Jul 2017 13:49

You probably means... 352. Infanterie-Division. Don't you?
With some exceptions (mainly independent units):
- companies (and artillery or cavalry equivalents such as batteries or squadrons) are in arabic numbers (3./Grenadier-Regiment 916 = third company [of the first battalion] of the 916th Grenadier-Regiment);
- battalions (and equivalents: Abteilungen) are in roman numbers (I./Grenadier-Regiment 916 = first battalion of the 916th Grenadier Regiment);
- regiments, brigades and divisions are in arabic numbers (Grenadier-Regiment 916, Schnelle Brigade 30, 716. Infanterie Division);
- corps are in roman numbers (LXXXIV. Armeekorps);
- armies are in arabic numbers (7. Armee).

In this case it's probably because you wrote the numbers before the type of units, instead of after. This was schwere Artillerie-Abteilung 989 and not 989. schwere Artillerie-Abteilung. Schnelle Abteilung 513 and not 513. Schnelle Abteilung. And so on.

Cheers,

CNE503
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yantaylor
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Re: 30. Schnelle Brigade

Post by yantaylor » 02 Jul 2017 19:18

No I meant 326. Infantry Division, I got the info from here, I always check out Niehorster's site, plus he always put the numbers first too, here check out this link and see the attached units on the right hand side;

http://niehorster.org/011_germany/44-oo ... g_030.html

Yan.

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Re: 30. Schnelle Brigade

Post by yantaylor » 02 Jul 2017 19:22

I will change all the numericals to follow the units title, as I want to be as authentic as I can with my data.
Thanks
Yan.

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jpz4
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Re: 30. Schnelle Brigade

Post by jpz4 » 02 Jul 2017 19:44

Leo's website is in English and much of his information is also presented in English which explains the unusual numbering style. I have no idea where the 326.I.D. information comes from, but earlier that sector was part of the 346.I.D. so I'm assuming it is a typo.
I would also say that the Brigade was more attached to the Regment than the other way around.

yantaylor
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Re: 30. Schnelle Brigade

Post by yantaylor » 02 Jul 2017 20:00

Yes you are correct Jpz, but you have to be careful with different web sites as they don't intentionally try to give fake info, I do like Leo's site and view it a lot but anyone can do a typo.

Yan.

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Re: 30. Schnelle Brigade

Post by Richard Anderson » 02 Jul 2017 20:27

jpz4 wrote:Leo's website is in English and much of his information is also presented in English which explains the unusual numbering style. I have no idea where the 326.I.D. information comes from, but earlier that sector was part of the 346.I.D. so I'm assuming it is a typo.
I would also say that the Brigade was more attached to the Regment than the other way around.
Schnell-Brigade 30. was formed as a bicycle-mounted infantry reserve as part of the Ersatzheer (technically it was part of the Ersatzheer until 27 July). It was part of 7 K.V.A.-J2 (KV-Gr. Granville) along with Ost-Gren.-Regt. z.b.V. 752. Ost-Gren.-Regt. z.b.V. 752 was not part of 326. Infanterie-Division - that was Grenadier-Regiment 752. Ost-Gren.-Regt. z.b.V. 752 was a headquarters that incorporated the following:

Gefechtsstand – Gavray
Kdr.: Oberst Kessler
Ost-Art.-Btl. 752 (A Gliderung from later in June shows this unit as a Pi.-Btl. with 3.Kp. replaced by a 3.Bttr. On 9 June it was referred to as an “Art.-Abtl.”)
Ost-Pi.-Kp. 752
Sich.-Btl. 521
Gefechtsstand – vicinity Granville
Kdr: Major Franz Falk
1.-4. Kp.
Ost-Btl. 635
Gefechtsstand – St. Nicolas (east of Granville)
1.Kp. – Douville (northeast of Granville)
2.Kp. – St. Nicolas
3.Kp. – St. Pair (south of Granville)
4.Kp. – Queron (7 kilometers south of Granville)
Ost-Btl. 797 (Georgiches) (I./Gren.Regt. 739) (minus 2. Kp., attached from
Inf.-Div. 709)
Gefechtsstand – Gouville (12 kilometers northwest of Coutances)
3.Kp. – Montmartin (8 kilometers southwest of Coutances)
1./Pi.-Btl. 319 (attached from 319. Inf.-Div.)

It is unclear that either was attached to the other really. :D Since Schnell-Brigade 30. was technically part of the Ersatzheer, like the Reserve units it was only to come under operational control of the Feldheer upon the invasion and until then its primary mission was training with secondary occupational, security, and anti-partisan tasks. Ost-Gren.-Regt. z.b.V. 752 was part of the Feldheer and was assigned primarily to conduct anti-partisan operations. It began organizing 11 March from the Kommandeur der Osttruppen 700.

("Das Grenadier-Regiment 752 wurde am 8. November 1942 für die Besetzung Südfrankreichs durch den Wehrkreis VI aufgestellt und der 326. Infanterie-Division zugeteilt. Dazu stellte das Grenadier-Ersatz-Bataillon 107 zwei Kompanien (10. und 11./GR 752) auf. Die Kompanien wurden am 14. November 1942 von Oberstein aus in Marsch gesetzt und erreichten Bitch am 15. November 1942 um 9:00 Uhr morgens. Am 1. August 1943 wurde das Regiment in Festungs-Grenadier-Regiment 752 umbenannt. Aus der 4., 8. und 12. MG-Kompanie wurden dabei Schützen-Kompanien gebildet. Außerdem wurde eine 15. (Panzerjäger-) Kompanie gebildet. Im Mai 1944 wurde das Regiment dann wieder in Grenadier-Regiment 752 umbenannt. Das Regiment wurde im August 1944 in der Normandie vernichtet.")
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

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jpz4
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Re: 30. Schnelle Brigade

Post by jpz4 » 03 Jul 2017 01:36

Richard, Ost-Art.Abt.752 was not under the regiment at the time of the invasion. It was under XXV.A.K. (275.I.D. sector if I'm not mistaken). There was significant difficulty in sending it to Normandy, and only one battery went.
I'm pretty sure the Pi.Kp. was not present either. I believe it had been split into two groups (A and B) and was operating in Bretagne as well. Will check when it was reassembled and sent to Normandy after the invasion.

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Re: 30. Schnelle Brigade

Post by Richard Anderson » 03 Jul 2017 03:48

jpz4 wrote:Richard, Ost-Art.Abt.752 was not under the regiment at the time of the invasion. It was under XXV.A.K. (275.I.D. sector if I'm not mistaken). There was significant difficulty in sending it to Normandy, and only one battery went.
I'm pretty sure the Pi.Kp. was not present either. I believe it had been split into two groups (A and B) and was operating in Bretagne as well. Will check when it was reassembled and sent to Normandy after the invasion.
I suspected as much. Have you find what was behind the change from calling it a Pionier and then later Artillerie?

As far as 1./319 Pi. I was going from the 7. ORB Anlagen and wasn't clear on that date it arrived on the Cotentin.

Further info always appreciated.
"Is all this pretentious pseudo intellectual citing of sources REALLY necessary? It gets in the way of a good, spirited debate, destroys the cadence." POD, 6 October 2018

Leo Niehorster
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Re: 30. Schnelle Brigade

Post by Leo Niehorster » 03 Jul 2017 10:11

My bad. The Gren.Rgt. 752 was indeed one of the infantry regiments of the 326. Inf.Div. But, what I should show is the "Grenadier-Regiment 752 zbV", until April 1944 known as the Ost-Regiments-Stab z.b.V. 752. I have duly corrected this on the web page.

Tessin shows the regiment with an Ost-Artillerieabteilung 752 and a Pionierkompanie 752, but not which other units it had.

This regiment was stationed in Küstenverteidingungsabschnitt J2 under the 7th Army, and was attached to the Schnelle Brigade 30 (30th Mobile or Rapid or Bicycle Brigade, as you prefer).

Regarding hierarchy, it seems unlikely that a regiment would be placed in command of a brigade, no matter whether Ersatzheer or Feldheer.
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yantaylor
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Re: 30. Schnelle Brigade

Post by yantaylor » 03 Jul 2017 10:39

Thanks for correcting the error so promptly Leo, it shows that even the best can do typos.
Your web site has been a great help to me over the years and I have sent links to it to many of my friends.

Regards
Yan.

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jpz4
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Re: 30. Schnelle Brigade

Post by jpz4 » 03 Jul 2017 12:41

Thanks for the explanation Leo. As for subordination, the regiment was specifically sent to this sector to take control of it and allow it to be transferred to LXXXIV.A.K. (It had been a problem area for years) The coastal sector was its responsibility and it provided the Führungsstab. AOK7 had requested to have the Brigade Stab carry out this task, but this was denied by OKH.
As a result the Regiment had the most important task in the area. Basically it seems that the Brigade was simply stationed in the area and I've not found any documents that offically link the two units. Have you? Without it I seriousy doubt either one was really subordinated to the other. I think this discussion is largely academic.

The position/status of the Pi. and Art. units of the regiment are a bit confusing because of the shift from Ost-Rgt.Stab 752 to Gren.Rgt.Stab 752 which technically was a different unit. I've spent quite some time researching the regiment(s), but I still consider the work on the Pi. and Art. units unfinished The initial intentions to incorporate the elements that once were (organic) part of the Ost-Rgt. in the new regiment simply do not seem to have been achieved.
The Ost-Rgt. had been committed on the coast in Bretagne (XXV.A.K) before being moved inland in early January. Certain elements remained on the coast and never rejoined the Regiment. When the new regiment was formed these elements still were in a different sector and not available. This also explains why they did not accompany the regiment to Normandy. It looks like they were never officially part of the new regiment, also because they are never mentioned as such. In practice they appear to have become essentially independent formations, particularly the Art.Abt.

@ Richard, I've found the same references to the Pi. and Art. I'm still not sure about the reason but I will keep looking. Might have been a simple matter of confusion. I'll keep looking into these unit, but I intend to finish my work on the eastern infantry battalions first.

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