Revisionist history as a positive approarch.

[ChristopherPerrien]

It irritates me that the average story of the Holocaust says that, Hitler
killed six millions Jews in WWII. Then you hear that "six million is a lie" revisionist crap.

I would like the history books that my grandchildren will read to state
that, About 11 million people died under Nazi rule in concentration and extermination camps, this figure includes 6 million Jews, 3 million Catholics in Poland, and about 2 million people mainly Russians but also handicapped, old people, gypsies, and others.

It you stated it this way you could make the idea of what Nazi genocide was all about more acceptable to Joe public and it would be the truth.

The (Holocaust and six million) has become such a Jewish institution and a media circus, that it breeds contempt and causes more revisionist junk
to occur. Both sides obscure the truth, this breeds more contempt and eventually it causes contempt for history and a lack of knowledge in general which is what I see in the younger generations today.

[Scott Smith]

I would like the history books that my grandchildren will read to state that, About 11 million people died under Nazi rule in concentration and extermination camps, this figure includes 6 million Jews, 3 million Catholics in Poland, and about 2 million people mainly Russians but also handicapped, old people, gypsies, and others.

Why are NS-Victims important at all? Who remembers the Armenians?

It you stated it this way you could make the idea of what Nazi genocide was all about more acceptable to Joe public and it would be the truth.

Why would that be important? And why do we need (let alone want) these lessons of Victimology?

The (Holocaust and six million) has become such a Jewish institution and a media circus, that it breeds contempt and causes more revisionist junk
to occur. Both sides obscure the truth, this breeds more contempt and eventually it causes contempt for history and a lack of knowledge in general which is what I see in the younger generations today.

Only the Jews claim to have been Genocided on a regular basis since the Assyrian conquest, if not before. If Gentiles have a problem with that then, well, they are just stupid Gentiles.

[witness]

I would like the history books that my grandchildren will read to state that, About 11 million people died under Nazi rule in concentration and extermination camps, this figure includes 6 million Jews, 3 million Catholics in Poland, and about 2 million people mainly Russians but also handicapped, old people, gypsies, and others.

Why are NS-Victims important at all? Who remembers the Armenians?

You and me and many many others ..

Why would that be important? And why do we need (let alone want) these lessons of Victimology?

This is called memory- to remember millions of innocent victims .
Hopefully it could serve as a lesson in the future . Like a warning to what hatred and bigotryeventually lead. Is not it obvious.?
And your word "Victimology" has no meaning beside your desire to whiten up the perpetrators of the crimes resulting in those millions of deaths.

Only the Jews claim to have been Genocided on a regular basis since the Assyrian conquest, if not before

Another baseless claim ? Care to back up your statement ?

If Gentiles have a problem with that then, well, they are just stupid Gentiles.

The same old..
Smith puts his words into the mouth of an imaginary Jew and this is supposed to be justification for his meaningless and morbid preoccupation with the Jews ..
Nazism was not bad only for the Jews BTW of which Scott is certainly aware ..

[Scott Smith]

Nazism was not bad only for the Jews BTW of which Scott is certainly aware ..

It was certainly bad for Democracy-Capitalists and Communists, except that these prevailed.

[witness]

Nazism was not bad only for the Jews BTW of which Scott is certainly aware ..

It was certainly bad for Democracy-Capitalists and Communists, except that these prevailed.

I made a mistake here . What I wanted to write was

Nazism was bad not only for the Jews BTW of which Scott is certainly aware .

As for Scott's comentary ..well .The same old - meaninless and biased opinion with nothing to back it up..Boring..

[ChristopherPerrien]

I really don't get your angle from your questions to my questions?
Victimology?- I suppose it is most important in showing how ANY government can become a genocidal killing machine.

I mean we got this Nazi German Government killing all these persons, but history is amok with examples. I don't consider what Nazi Germany did as any better worse or different from what the US, England, Spain did to many North and South American Indians. That was a holocaust too , I prefer the to use the term genocide.

I just consider that it is highly desensitizing to most children who hear about six million Jews dying over and over , they don't care except for the miniscule fraction who happen to be Hebrew. Restoring a balance based on the truth, to this history would make it more acceptable.

A very simple example- I am not Hebrew, and I could not care much less
what Nazi Germany did to a bunch of people I do not know and am not related to. But When I hear that they killed three million Catholic-poles
that might get me interested because I uset to be Catholic and I might be Polish. I might want to know why? Maybe I'm an indian who sees the similarities ? I might be more concerned about what my government/culture is doing today.

In the mind of a child - Do you see?

History gets repeted when people forget the truth of the past.

[Roberto]

It irritates me that the average story of the Holocaust says that, Hitler
killed six millions Jews in WWII. Then you hear that "six million is a lie" revisionist crap.

I would like the history books that my grandchildren will read to state
that, About 11 million people died under Nazi rule in concentration and extermination camps, this figure includes 6 million Jews, 3 million Catholics in Poland, and about 2 million people mainly Russians but also handicapped, old people, gypsies, and others.

It you stated it this way you could make the idea of what Nazi genocide was all about more acceptable to Joe public and it would be the truth.

The (Holocaust and six million) has become such a Jewish institution and a media circus, that it breeds contempt and causes more revisionist junk
to occur. Both sides obscure the truth, this breeds more contempt and eventually it causes contempt for history and a lack of knowledge in general which is what I see in the younger generations today.

Good post, Christopher.

Here's an article you may be interested in reading, for it contains some of your points:

Assaults on Truth and Memory: Holocaust Denial in Context

by Ward Churchill

http://zena.secureforum.com/Znet/zmag/a ... church.htm

If you look at the USHMM site, on the other hand, you will see that they are moving in the direction you would like them to. They have features about

Jehova's Witnesses
http://www.ushmm.org/education/resource ... jwbklt.pdf

Poles
http://www.ushmm.org/education/resource/poles/poles.pdf

Homosexuals
http://www.ushmm.org/education/resource ... osbklt.pdf

Handicapped
http://www.ushmm.org/education/resource ... apbklt.pdf

and

Sinti and Roma
http://www.ushmm.org/education/resource ... aSBklt.pdf

I’m looking forward to features on Soviet prisoners of war, peasants slaughtered in the course of "anti-partisan" actions, the inhabitants of besieged Leningrad and other victims of Nazi mass murder, but with the above mentioned features the USHMM already escapes Churchill’s criticism.

[witness]

Nazism was bad for the millions of Slavs, Jews,Gypsies and Germans who held differnt then Nazis opinions. It was bad for the mentally ill ,for sexual minorities, for the Catholic priests voicing their opinion against injusticies.
So all those we should include in the category of "Democracy-Capitalists and Communists" according to Smith. Plain ludicrous..

[Scott Smith]

I really don't get your angle from your questions to my questions?
Victimology?- I suppose it is most important in showing how ANY government can become a genocidal killing machine.

I mean we got this Nazi German Government killing all these persons, but history is amok with examples. I don't consider what Nazi Germany did as any better worse or different from what the US, England, Spain did to many North and South American Indian. That was a holocaust too , I prefer the to use the term genocide.

It sounds like you are a practioner of a Genocide Theory of History, of which the NS-era is only the flavor-of-the-month, as you admit.

I'm not a believer/confessor to a Genocide Theory of History. I don't consider it a viable historiography at all, more a theology.

History gets repeted when people forget the truth of the past.

And which august body determines the correct canon of Victimology as the proper didactic-History? Everybody likes to posit Santayana but few understand what he meant.

[Scott Smith]

Nazism was bad for the millions of Slavs, Jews,Gypsies and Germans who held differnt then Nazis opinions. It was bad for the mentally ill ,for sexual minorities, for the Catholic priests voicing their opinion against injusticies.
So all those we should include in the category of "Democracy-Capitalists and Communists" according to Smith. Plain ludicrous..

Your assumption is that Nazism came out of a historical vacuum. Secondly, so were Democracy-Capitalism (whose cards have not been completely written yet) bad for millions. Communism was harder on Slavs and Asians than anything promulgated by the most rabid German nationalist. And radical Christianity was not too benign either, lest we think that the State was/is the root of all Evil. Capitalism itself is an ethical theory that places moral superiority to the holder/s of Capital. Democracy is one which places moral superiority into the hands of the majority rabble, as if truth and efficiency could be determined by arbitrary popularity-contests. In other words, with Democracy-Capitalism, Badness can simply be legislated out of "correct" existence and efficiency can be rationalized if someone makes an unearned buck some way somehow.

For every winner there is a loser in such paradigms. That is a Genocide worldview, ad absurdum.

[Roberto]

Nazism was bad for the millions of Slavs, Jews,Gypsies and Germans who held differnt then Nazis opinions. It was bad for the mentally ill ,for sexual minorities, for the Catholic priests voicing their opinion against injusticies.
So all those we should include in the category of "Democracy-Capitalists and Communists" according to Smith. Plain ludicrous..

Your assumption is that Nazism came out of a historical vacuum.

Sorry to break in, but what is that supposed to mean in the context of this discussion, and from what statements of witness does Smith derive this supposed assumption?

Secondly, so were Democracy-Capitalism (whose cards have not been completely written yet) bad for millions.

To the extend of murdering millions of innocent people within a comparatively short period of time, Mr. Smith?

Communism was harder on Slavs and Asians than anything promulgated by the most rabid German nationalist.

If you exclude your beloved Nazis with their plans for decimating, starving, expelling or enslaving the Eastern Slavs from the term "German nationalist", that is correct.

And radical Christianity was not too benign either.

Certainly not, but who is saying otherwise?

And where are these comparisons supposed to lead us?

Does Smith think they make the nest of warlords and mass murderers he looks up to look any better?

[ChristopherPerrien]

Mr Smith you are an interesting enigma,

I think more of history as culture, invention, and war. Trouble is these three facets cause alot of bodies to pile up on occasion, and instead of figuring out why, we just say, So what, that was them or it's not us.

[Roberto]

I'm not a believer/confessor to a Genocide Theory of History.

No, Smith is a true believer in the supreme virtues of his beloved Fuehrer and the National Socialist state, as we all know.

I don't consider it a viable historiography at all, more a theology.

I haven't yet seen a "Genocide Theory of History" outside the mind of a confused preacher by the name of Scott Smith, who for all his professed aversion to "theology" blindly adheres to a quasi-religious ideological movement that calls itself "Revisionism", the creed of which is best expressed in the following statement by one of its more prominent gurus:

Keep the Faith fellow revisionists. The Nazis and the SS were the good guys--but the anti-Nazis and the anti-revisionists dare not admit it for fear of losing their fabulous, ill gotten gains from the war.

"Hoaxbuster" Friedrich Paul Berg on the Codoh discussion forum.
http://www.codoh.org/dcforum/DCForumID9/143.html#10

[ChristopherPerrien]

Thanks Roberto I will look at these.

[Scott Smith]

Mr Smith you are an interesting enigma,

I think more of history as culture, invention, and war. Trouble is these three facets cause alot of bodies to pile up on occasion, and instead of figuring out why, we just say, So what, that was them or it's not us.

Perhaps so. None of us has a corner on what real-History really is and what school of thought it should belong to. I think we should be especially cautious when some try to draw political capital out of it.