Menachem Ussishkin

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michael mills
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Menachem Ussishkin

Post by michael mills » 09 May 2002 04:28

On another thread I previously made reference to a conversation on 13 April 1920 in Jerusalem between Menachem Ussishkin, Acting Chairman of the Zionist Commission and Sir Ronald Storrs, Governor of Jerusalem from 1917 t0 1925.

I have now had the opportunity to look up the source, and am able to advise readers of it. The record of the conversation is in the Central Zionist Archives: L/3/256: April 13, 1920, and is quoted on page 146 of the 1986 book "The Siege: The Saga of Israel and Zionism" by the Zionist sympathiser, the late Conor Cruise O'Brien.

It may be asked what relevance a conversation in Jerusalem in 1920 has to a forum on the Third Reich. However, one of the major topics in any discussion of the Third Reich is the destruction at German hands of a large part of European Jewry, to which the tendentious name "Holocaust" has been given. Therefore, any information which throws light on the motivating factors for that occurrence, on the chain of events leading up to it, is relevant to the forum, in my opinion.

This is what Cruise O'Brien wrote:

"Later in the course of his long an increasingly emotional speech, Ussishkin said: '........Czar Nicholas also did not interfere with the pogroms, he also oppressed us. Yet does Your Honour see what befell him? In his place sits Trotsky. All our enemies in the world and in the land of Israel will also meet such an end'."

Here Ussishkin was making a veiled threat to Storrs. He was complaining about the latter's failure to prevent Arab anti-Jewish riots in Jerusalem at the beginning of April 1920, in which small number of Jews (and Arabs) had been killed. He was comparing Storrs' attitude to that of Tsar Nicholas, who had similarly failed to prevent the pogroms in pre-Rovolutionary Russia, and implying that the same thing would happen to Storrs as happened to Nicholas.

Ussishkin's words reveal a number of significant features of the ideology of this Orthodox Jewish Zionist (definitely not a Bolshevik, or any other sort of Jewish leftist):

1. The Russian Revolution was retribution for the anti-Jewish actions and policies of the Tsar, and the Russian ruling class as a whole;

2. The Russian Revolution was a Jewish action (significantly, Ussishkin names the Jew Trotsky as the successor to the Tsar, as the man with the real power, not the non-Jew Lenin);

3. The Russian Revolution, and the overthrow of the Tsar and the previous ruling class, was a model for what the Jews wanted to do to all those in the whole world whom they regarded as their enemies.

It is useful to reflect on what the fate of the Tsar actually was. Not only was he killed by the Bolsheviks, but his entire family was exterminated. It is obvious that Ussishkin was implying that the same fate, ie the elimination of entire groups of people, would be inflicted on the enemies of the Jews. In expressing such a thought, Ussishkin, as an Orthodox Jew, was drawing on the Judaic tradition that entire peoples bore a hereditary guilt for wrongs done to the Jewish people in the Past and in the Present.

It may be that Ussishkin, in the heat of the moment, and under the impact of the anti-Jewish riots that had taken place only a few days previously, was exaggerating somewhat. However, it is clear that his words represented a basic ideological standpoint.

Furthermore, it is not certain to what extent Ussishkin's ideological standpoint was representative of the Jewish leadership as a whole. However, Ussishkin was a major Jewish leader of the time, being the main leader of Ukrainian Jewry and the leader of the Jewish Delegation to the Paris peace Conference in 1919, representing the Jewish communities of Eastern Europe. He also one of the major Zionist leaders. Accordingly, his words must be regarded as perhaps an extreme expression of views widely held by Jewish leaders and by large parts of the Jewish community, particularly in eastern Europe.

Finally, it is not certain to what extent Ussishkin's ideological standpoint, and that of other Jewish leaders, was known to European anti-Semites, such as Rosenberg for example. However, there is a striking similarity between what Ussishkin threatened (that ALL enemies of the Jews would meet the fate of the Tsar, and that the Jews would take power in their place), and what anti-Semites claimed that the Jews were conspiring to do, ie to seize power and destroy their enemies. In view of that congruence, it may be assumed that the views expressed by Ussishkin had filtered through to non-Jews and had contributed to the rise of an anti-Semitism based on fear of Jews to which the American-Jewish historian Richard Pipes refers to in his book "Russia Under The Bolshevik Regime".

Anti-Semitic observers of the Russian Revolution and of subsequent waves of mass-violence, the extermination of the ruling class, the suppression of the peasantry, the decimation of the Cossacks and the Kulaks, the purges, must have seen in those events the realisation of Ussishkin's words, that ALL the enemies of the Jews in the world would meet the fate of the Tsar.

Under those circumstances, anti-Semitic elements among the peoples of Central and East Europe may have adopted that Jewish precept (quoted by Sharon only today), that when someone rises up to kill you, it is lawful for you to kill him first.

From an objective viewpoint, it cannot be said that the death of millions of Jews, most of them helpless and innocent, was justified as a reaction to a particular ideology held by Jewish leaders, namely that what was done to the Tsar would be done to all those considered to be enemies of the Jews. Nevertheless, that reaction can explain why those millions died.

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 09 May 2002 12:46

Interesting. Now please point out in what way a reaction to Ussishkinian hate speech becomes apparent from the Führer’s following statements:

Hätte man zu Kriegsbeginn und während des Krieges einmal zwölf- oder fünfzehntausend dieser hebräischen Volksverderber so unter Giftgas gehalten, wie Hunderttausende unserer allerbesten deutschen Arbeiter aus allen Schichten und Berufen es im Felde erdulden mußten, dann wäre das Millionenopfer der Front nicht vergeblich gewesen.

If we had at the beginning of, and during the war, subjected 12 or 15,000 of these Hebrew corrupters of the people to poison gas, as hundreds of thousands of our best German workers from all strata and occupations had to endure, then millions of victims of the Front would not have been in vain.
Mein Kampf, 1925, Volume 2, p. 772.

Dies trifft in erster Linie zu bei dem Volke unter dessen Parasitentum besonders heute die ganze ehrliche Menschheit zu leiden hat: dem Judentum.

This applies foremost to that people under whose "parasiteness" all honorable humanity must suffer, especially today: Jewry.
Mein Kampf, 1925, Volume 1, p. 165.

Das furchtbarste Beispiel dieser Art bildet Rußland, wo er an dreißig Millionen Menschen in wahrhaft fanatischer Wildheit teilweise unter unmenschlichen Qualen tötete oder verhungern ließ, um einem Haufen jüdischer Literaten und Börsenbanditen die Herrschaft aber ein großes Volk zu sichern.
Das Ende aber ist nicht nur das Ende der Freiheit der vom Juden unterdrückten Völker, sondern auch das Ende dieses Völkerparasiten selber. Nach dem Tode des Opfers stirbt auch früher oder später der Vampir.

The most fearsome example of this kind is Russia where he (Jewry) allowed 39 million humans in truly fanatical wildness to die or starve in inhuman agony, in order to secure the mastery of a great people for a gang of Jewish literati and stock exchange bandits.
The result is not only the end of freedom for the people oppressed by the Jews, but rather also the end of these parasites of the peoples themselves. After the death of the victim, the vampire dies sooner or later.
Mein Kampf, 1925, Volume 1, p. 358.


Diese Verpestung unseres Blutes, an der Hunderttausende unseres Volkes wie blind vorübergehen, wird aber vom Juden heute planmäßig betrieben. Planmäßig schänden diese schwarzen Völkerparasiten unsere unerfahrenen, jungen blonden Mädchen und zerstören dadurch etwas, was auf dieser Welt nicht mehr ersetzt werden kann.

This contamination of our blood, which hundreds of thousands of our people blindly ignore, is used by the Jew today according to plan. These black parasites of the peoples deliberately violate our inexperienced, young blond girls and thereby destroy something that cannot be replaced in this world.
Mein Kampf, 1925, Volume 2, pp. 629-30.

Gab es denn da einen Unrat, eine Schamlosigkeit in irgendeiner Form, vor allem des kulturellen Lebens, an der nicht wenigstens ein Jude beteiligt gewesen wäre? Sowie man nur vorsichtig in eine solche Geschwulst hineinschnitt, fand man, wie die Made im faulenden Leibe, oft ganz geblendet vom plötzlichen Lichte, ein Jüdlein.

Was there any excrement, any shamelessness in any form, above all in cultural life, in which at least one Jew would not have been involved? As soon as one even carefully cut into such an abscess, one found, like maggots in a decaying body, often blinded by the sudden light, a kike.
Mein Kampf, 1925, Volume 1, p. 61.


Source of quotes:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/nazis-words/
2.3 In a talk before a gathering of National Socialists in Salzburg on 7 August 1920 he said:

Don't think that one can fight against disease without killing the cause, without exterminating the germ; and don't think that one can fight against racial tuberculosis without taking care that the peoples be freed of the germ of racial tuberculosis. The effect of Judaism will never disappear and the poisoning of the people will not end unless the cause - the Jews - are removed from our presence.

[…]

2.6 And in another passage, Hitler pointed once again to the chief objective of the National Socialists - to the struggle against the Jewish "poison" within the German people (Volk), in his view clearly a lethal danger:

The greatest danger is and remains for us the poison of foreign peoples in our body. All other dangers are limited in time. Only this alone is eternally present in its consequences for us. [...] The peace treaty can be abrogated, reparation obligations can be declared invalid and rejected, political parties can be disposed of, but blood that is once poisoned can never be altered. It remains and proliferates and pushes us down from year to year ever deeper. If you are surprised today about the inner turmoil of our people than consider the following: The blood which is at odds with itself is merely expressing itself in the inner turmoil of the German people. And there lies the greatest danger, that with the continuation of this poisoning in 10, 20 and 30 years we will be weaker than now, in 100 years weaker than after 30 and in 200 years more unconsciousness than after 100 years; one day however the time will come when our people will fall from its cultural heights and will finally hopelessly perish as a result of this blood poisoning...

2.7 In his book, MEIN KAMPF, which appeared in 1926 and especially in a manuscript written in 1927, which remained unpublished until after 1945 (his "Second Book"), Hitler placed this radical view, which leads to the "removal" of the Jews from Germany, within the context of a theory which he tried to derive historically. According to this theory, the meaning of world history is a permanent struggle between the races or the peoples (Völker) over "living space" (Lebensraum). In this model the Jews, who are said to be unable to develop their own territorial state or culture, play the role of parasitic beings who seek to destroy from within (together with other Jews in a international conspiracy) the construction of Lebensraum empires by the superior races.

2.8 This "theory" is described most clearly in a lengthy section in his "second book":

The Jewish people, because of their own lack of productive capacity, are not able to build up their own territorial state. Rather, they need the work and creative activity of other nations as a base for their own existence. The existence of the Jews themselves thus becomes that of a parasite within the life of other peoples. The final goal of the Jewish struggle for survival is therefore the enslavement of productive peoples. To reach this goal, which in truth describes the struggle for existence of Jewry in all times, the Jew uses all weapons which correspond to the whole complex of his being. Domestically, he fights within the individual nations first for equality and then for superiority. As weapons he uses cunning, cleverness, subterfuge, malice, dissimulation, etc..., qualities which are rooted in the essence of his ethnic character. They are ruses in his struggle for existence, similar to the ruses other peoples use in sword-fights.
In terms of foreign policy, he tries to make the peoples restless, distracting them from their true interests, pushing them into wars with one another and in this way, with the help of the power of money and propaganda to bring them under his dominance. His ultimate goal is the denationalisation, the promiscuous bastardisation of other peoples - the lowering of the racial niveau of the highest peoples as well as domination over his racial porridge through the extirpation of the völkisch intelligencia and its replacement by members of his own people.
The end of the Jewish world struggle will thus always be bloody Bolshevisation, that means in truth the destruction of the spiritual elite which is bound with the peoples, so that he alone can ascend and become master of a mankind which has been rendered leaderless. Stupidity, cowardice and wickedness help him to achieve his goals. In the bastard he secures himself the first opening so as to break into the body of another people.
The end of Jewish domination is nevertheless always the decay of all culture and finally the insanity of the Jew himself. Then he becomes a parasite of the peoples and his victory signifies the death of his victim as well as his own end.
Source of quotes:

Hitler's Role in the Persecution of the Jews by the Nazi Regime

by Peter Longerich
(expert opinion submitted at the Irving-Lipstadt trial)

http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.com/e ... /pl102.asp

As I see it, the element of “racial poisoning” was as prominent in Hitler’s early utterances as a concern with “Bolshevik” violence emanating from or instigated by “the Jews”.

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Post by Ovidius » 09 May 2002 20:05

Roberto wrote:Interesting. Now please point out in what way a reaction to Ussishkinian hate speech becomes apparent from the Führer’s following statements
Russian Leftist Jews had undermined the Tsarist system from the inside, just as Hitler expected they were going to do in Germany, winning the minds of people for their side. Of course, this is just hate speech and I am wrong :mrgreen:

However, Hitler had chosen to eliminate the Jews either by sending them God knows where, or by outrightly killing them like ants. A more beneficial solution would have been the attempt to gain the support of Jews for his side - but this was going to be harder. Of course, this is also hate speech plus ideological blindfold :mrgreen:
michael mills wrote:that Jewish precept (quoted by Sharon only today), that when someone rises up to kill you, it is lawful for you to kill him first
While Hitler, when asking his men to treat ruthlessly the Soviet people, even more ruthlessly the partisans, and ordering the Commissar and GPU scum to be shot on the spot was adopting a Jewish practice :mrgreen:
Adolf Hitler wrote:the lowering of the racial niveau of the highest peoples as well as domination over his racial porridge through the extirpation of the völkisch intelligencia and its replacement by members of his own people.
The end of the Jewish world struggle will thus always be bloody Bolshevisation, that means in truth the destruction of the spiritual elite which is bound with the peoples, so that he alone can ascend and become master of a mankind which has been rendered leaderless. Stupidity, cowardice and wickedness help him to achieve his goals. In the bastard he secures himself the first opening so as to break into the body of another people.
While the Leftist scum wandering through Germany in 1918 had nothing to do with the Jewish Leftist groups, isn't it? Because if I say it did, it's just hollow bunk :mrgreen:

~Ovidius

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Post by Roberto » 09 May 2002 20:11

Ovidius wrote:
Roberto wrote:Interesting. Now please point out in what way a reaction to Ussishkinian hate speech becomes apparent from the Führer’s following statements
Russian Leftist Jews had undermined the Tsarist system from the inside, just as Hitler expected they were going to do in Germany, winning the minds of people for their side. Of course, this is just hate speech and I am wrong :mrgreen:

However, Hitler had chosen to eliminate the Jews either by sending them God knows where, or by outrightly killing them like ants. A more beneficial solution would have been the attempt to gain the support of Jews for his side - but this was going to be harder. Of course, this is also hate speech plus ideological blindfold :mrgreen:
michael mills wrote:that Jewish precept (quoted by Sharon only today), that when someone rises up to kill you, it is lawful for you to kill him first
While Hitler, when asking his men to treat ruthlessly the Soviet people, even more ruthlessly the partisans, and ordering the Commissar and GPU scum to be shot on the spot was adopting a Jewish practice :mrgreen:
Adolf Hitler wrote:the lowering of the racial niveau of the highest peoples as well as domination over his racial porridge through the extirpation of the völkisch intelligencia and its replacement by members of his own people.
The end of the Jewish world struggle will thus always be bloody Bolshevisation, that means in truth the destruction of the spiritual elite which is bound with the peoples, so that he alone can ascend and become master of a mankind which has been rendered leaderless. Stupidity, cowardice and wickedness help him to achieve his goals. In the bastard he secures himself the first opening so as to break into the body of another people.
While the Leftist scum wandering through Germany in 1918 had nothing to do with the Jewish Leftist groups, isn't it? Because if I say it did, it's just hollow bunk :mrgreen:

~Ovidius
Dead wrong, Ovi. I enjoy your honest-to-God hate speech. At least you're not a bloody hypocrite like some other folks on this forum. :aliengray

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Post by Ovidius » 09 May 2002 20:36

Roberto wrote: Dead wrong, Ovi. I enjoy your honest-to-God hate speech. At least you're not a bloody hypocrite like some other folks on this forum. :aliengray
The fact that you enjoy it doesn't make it a less hollow bunk. :mrgreen:

~Ovidius

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Post by Roberto » 09 May 2002 20:40

Ovidius wrote:
Roberto wrote: Dead wrong, Ovi. I enjoy your honest-to-God hate speech. At least you're not a bloody hypocrite like some other folks on this forum. :aliengray
The fact that you enjoy it doesn't make it a less hollow bunk. :mrgreen:

~Ovidius
I still enjoy the honesty of it. :wink:

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Post by michael mills » 10 May 2002 03:35

Interesting. Now please point out in what way a reaction to Ussishkinian hate speech becomes apparent from the Führer’s following statements:
The above request from Mr Muehlenkamp demonstrates what I consider to be a basic error in his approach to the issue of the motivation for the German destruction of Jewish life during the Second World War, namely that he attributes it specifically to Hitler.

I compare Hitler to a match that ignites an explosive charge. The reason why the match ignited is of lesser importance; without the presence of the explosive charge, the match will simply burn out harmlessly. My interest is in how that explosive charge that was the anti-Jewish sentiment of broad elements of the population, not only in Germany but more significantly in the whole of Eastern Europe, came into being. My contention is that that sentiment, consisting of a fear of the Jews, was a reaction to events in which Jewish ideology played a part, as revealed by the words of Menachem Ussishkin. Without that sentiment, that fear, that explosive charge, Hitler's own personal anti-Semitism would have had no effect.

In fact, the third quote from "Mein Kampf" adduced by Mr Muehlenkamp quite clearly shows a reaction to the shock of the Russian revolution, and is an example of the thesis that the Bolshevik rule in Russia was a Jewish despotism, a view seemingly shared by Ussishkin (Trotsky sits on the former Tsar's throne).

As for the quotes concerning "racial poisoning" and "contamination of the blood" of the German people by Jews, I have pointed out in previous messages that those ideas were derived from a strand of anti-Semitism represented in particular by Streicher.

(It is an irony of history that the idea of "contamination of the blood" became a weapon used against Jews, since the idea is itself of Judaic origin. It was invented by the Jewish priests in ancient times as an ideological tool to preserve the Jewish people from absorption into surrounding peoples, and found its expression in the precept that only a man who was the legitimate son of a Jewish woman could be a full member of the Congregation of Israel [Knesset Yisrael], ie the product of a legitimate marriage to a Jewish man, and hence of pure Jewish blood. Illegitimate children, who might have non-Jewish fathers, were excluded as "bastards" [mamzer], and were not allowed to marry women of pure Jewish blood.

This Judaic concept of "purity of blood" was transmitted from the Jews in Spain to the surrounding non-Jews, where it was taken up in the form of the official ideology of "limpieza de sangre", and used as a weapon against the Jews, more particularly the "conversos", Jews who had converted to Christianity. From Spain the concepts of "blood purity" and "contamination of the blood" spread to other parts of Europe, where it found its most virulent expression in the ideas of people like Streicher.

Here endeth the lesson.)

However, the concept of "racial poisoning" was only one strand in Hitler's anti-Semitism, the other being the anti-Bolshevism of people like Rosenberg, who was the unofficial "philosopher" of the national Socialist movement.

It seems to me that the type of anti-Semitism represented by Rosenberg was far more significant in the course of events that led to the destruction of European Jewry. Streicher was not a person of importance in the German Government; he was generally despised by the National Socialist hierarchy as a disreputable person, and had been dismissed from all positions of power before the beginning of the war.

When Himmler, in his Posen speeches of October 1943, tried to provide a justification for the mass-destruction of Jewish life, he said "We had the right to kill this people that wanted to kill us". That is an obvious example of a reaction to the observed events in Russia, which were interpreted as a Jewish revenge on their enemies (as Ussishkin said it was).

Himmler did not say "We had to kill the Jews to stop them violating our blond young women and thereby contaminating our blood". Such a concept was not sufficient motivation for a policy of destroying whole groups of people seen as dangerous or useless.

The Ukrainians who volunteered in large numbers to assist their German conquerors in the task of eliminating the "Jewish menace" were not motivated by the desire to prevent the "poisoning" of the German race, or even of the Ukrainian race. They volunteered because they thought they were helping to destroy the Bolshevik rule that had caused them so much grief and pain.

The Polish peasants of Jedwabne, who killed the Jews of their town as soon as their Soviet occupiers fled before the advancing German army, were not acting to save blond german maidens from violation (they may well have wanted to violate them themselves, if given the chance). They wanted to take revenge for the repression visited on them by Soviet rule.

The willingness of the peoples of Eastern Europe to take part in anti-Jewish measures can only be explained in terms of their fear of the Jews as the force behind Bolshevik rule. Thus there is a connection with the ideas expressed by Ussishkin.

Some of the quotes adduced by Mr Muehlenkamp are drawn from a work that has been called "Hitler's Second Book", or "Hitler's Secret Book".

I would counsel against any reliance on that book, which is most probably a post-war forgery. It is claimed that Hitler wrote it, but did not publish it, and kept it a secret from anyone, and that it was found after the war. The problem is that absolutely no-one in the National Socialist hierarchy, none of Hitler's most closest intimates, had any idea that such a book by Hitler existed. Nowhere in all the mountains of documentation, captured by the Allies, nowhere in the interrogations of thousands upon thousands of leading National Socialists is there any mention of a second book.

We are asked to believe that Hitler wrote the book entirely alone, and kept it totally secret from his closest intimates. However, that is not borne out by comparison with the circumstances under which "Mein Kampf" was produced. Hitler had considerable help in the writing of that book; Rudolf Hess acted as his secretary, and probably wrote whole sections of the book which reflect his ideas derived from the Haushofer sshool of geopolitics. Therefore, it is extremely unlikely that Hitler wrote a book by himself in total secrecy.

The suspicion that the "Second Book" is a post-war forgery is strengthened by the resemblance of ideas expressed in it to the ideas expressed in the book "The Political Testament of Adolf Hitler" published originally by Francois Genoud. That book was claimed by Genoud to have been based on records of Hitler's monologues in early 1945 made by Goering, and which came into his hands in a very unusual way; however, it is suspected of being a forgery by Genoud himself. The so-called "Second Book" may also be the handiwork of the ubiquitous Genoud.

In particular, the theory of history in the passage from the "second Book" quoted by Mr Muehlenkamp also appears at length in the "Political Testament". It may that Genoud, who was a Swiss Nazi sympathiser, wanted to create some sort of rational ideological basis for Hitler's thoughts and actions, something that Hitler himself was never really concerned with.

The so-called "second Book" was first published in 1961 by Gerhard L Weinberg as "Hitlers zweites Buch: ein Dokument aus dem Jahr 1928". Weinberg was for a long time professor of history at a university in the United States (South Carolina, from memory), and may still be. I would suppose that he was entirely convinced that the document was a genuine secret writing by Hitler, but he may have been taken in by a clever forger. Look what happened to Trevor-Roper!

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Post by Roberto » 10 May 2002 10:02

The above request from Mr Muehlenkamp demonstrates what I consider to be a basic error in his approach to the issue of the motivation for the German destruction of Jewish life during the Second World War, namely that he attributes it specifically to Hitler.

I compare Hitler to a match that ignites an explosive charge.
Hitler thrived on what was already there, for sure. But he didn’t limit himself to being the match that lit the “explosive charge”, in the sense of igniting a Europe-wide emotional pogrom. Instead, he strove to replace the “explosive charge”, which could be ignited but not controlled, by institutionalized anti-Semitism, not only state-sponsored but state-organized, which culminated in a methodically planned and executed killing program that its organizers strove to keep as free as possible from “explosive” emotions. His intention to implement what he called the “anti-Semitism of reason” (as opposed to the emotional violence of the pogrom mob) becomes apparent in one of his early speeches quoted by Peter Longerich in his already mentioned expert opinion:
Antisemitism of the emotional sort finds its final expression in the form of pogroms. Rational antisemitism on the other hand, must lead to a systematic legal opposition and elimination of those special privileges which the Jews hold, in contrast to the other aliens living among us (alien’s legislation). Its final objective must unswervingly be the removal of the Jews altogether.
Source of quote:

http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.com/e ... /pl102.asp
As for the quotes concerning "racial poisoning" and "contamination of the blood" of the German people by Jews, I have pointed out in previous messages that those ideas were derived from a strand of anti-Semitism represented in particular by Streicher.
That’s an interesting theory, but I wonder to what extent it is demonstrable. When did Hitler get to know Julius Streicher?
This Judaic concept of "purity of blood" was transmitted from the Jews in Spain to the surrounding non-Jews, where it was taken up in the form of the official ideology of "limpieza de sangre", and used as a weapon against the Jews, more particularly the "conversos", Jews who had converted to Christianity. From Spain the concepts of "blood purity" and "contamination of the blood" spread to other parts of Europe, where it found its most virulent expression in the ideas of people like Streicher.
Another interesting theory the factual foundations of which I would like to see. Just how prominently does the concept of “cleansing of the blood” show up in the program of the Spanish and Portuguese institutions that promoted the removal of Jews from the Iberian peninsula or their forced conversion, namely the Inquisition? What evidence is there that these institutions modeled their stance on an originally Jewish concept?
When Himmler, in his Posen speeches of October 1943, tried to provide a justification for the mass-destruction of Jewish life, he said "We had the right to kill this people that wanted to kill us". That is an obvious example of a reaction to the observed events in Russia, which were interpreted as a Jewish revenge on their enemies (as Ussishkin said it was).

Himmler did not say "We had to kill the Jews to stop them violating our blond young women and thereby contaminating our blood". Such a concept was not sufficient motivation for a policy of destroying whole groups of people seen as dangerous or useless.
In his speech on 4 October 1943, Himmler said the following:
Ich meine die Judenevakuierung, die Ausrottung des jüdischen Volkes. Es gehört zu den Dingen, die man leicht ausspricht. [quickly] "Das jüdische Volk wird ausgerottet", sagt Ihnen jeder Parteigenosse, "ganz klar, steht in unserem Programm drin, Aus...schaltung der Juden, Ausrottung, machen wir, pfah!, Kleinigkeit". [less quickly] Und dann kommen sie alle, alle die braven 80 Millionen Deutschen, und jeder hat seinen anständigen Juden. [mockingly] Sagt: alle anderen sind Schweine, und hier ist ein prima Jude. [a few people laugh] Und ... [audience cough] [carefully] ... zugesehen, es durchgestanden hat keiner. Von Euch werden die meisten wissen, was es heisst, wenn 100 Leichen beisammen liegen, wenn 500 daliegen oder wenn 1000 daliegen. Und ... dies ... durchgehalten zu haben, und dabei - abgesehen von menschlichen Ausnahmeschwächen - anständig geblieben zu sein, hat uns hart gemacht und ist ein niemals genanntes und niemals zu nennendes Ruhmesblatt, denn wir wissen, wie schwer wir uns täten, wenn wir heute noch in jeder Stadt bei den Bombenangriffen, bei den Lasten des Krieges und bei den Entbehrungen, wenn wir da noch die Juden als geheime Saboteure, Agitatoren und Hetzer hätten. Wir würden wahrscheinlich in das Stadium des Jahres 16/17 jetzt gekommen sein, wenn die Juden noch im deutschen Volkskörper sässen.
Source of quote:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/him ... izkor.html

Translation:
I am talking about the evacuation of the Jews, the extermination of the Jewish people[1]. It is one of those things that is easily said. [quickly] "The Jewish people is being exterminated[2]," every Party member will tell you, "perfectly clear, it's part of our plans, we're eliminating the Jews, exterminating[2] them, a small matter". [less quickly] And then along they all come, all the 80 million upright Germans, and each one has his decent Jew. [mockingly] They say: all the others are swine, but here is a first-class Jew. [a few people laugh] And ... [audience cough] [carefully] ... none of them has seen it, has endured it. Most of you will know what it means when 100 bodies lie together, when 500 are there or when there are 1000. And ... to have seen this through and -- with the exception of human weakness -- to have remained decent, has made us hard and is a page of glory never mentioned and never to be mentioned. Because we know how difficult things would be, if today in every city during the bomb attacks, the burdens of war and the privations, we still had Jews as secret saboteurs, agitators and instigators. We would probably be at the same stage as 16/17, if the Jews still resided in the body of the German people.
Source of quote:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/him ... izkor.html

Emphasis is mine.

The highlighted passage suggests that the Jewish menace was also seen as related to their being a parasitical and weakening alien element in the body popular and that this was the prime reason, or at least one of the determining reasons, for their elimination.
The Ukrainians who volunteered in large numbers to assist their German conquerors in the task of eliminating the "Jewish menace" were not motivated by the desire to prevent the "poisoning" of the German race, or even of the Ukrainian race. They volunteered because they thought they were helping to destroy the Bolshevik rule that had caused them so much grief and pain.


Certainly so, but they acted under the orders of their German commanders, in whom the view of Jews as alien parasites, independently of their alleged Bolshevik affiliations, is likely to have predominated. Where Ukrainians acted on their own initiative in the pogroms carried out in the early stages of the German invasion, their contribution to the overall death toll of Soviet Jewry was rather marginal.
The Polish peasants of Jedwabne, who killed the Jews of their town as soon as their Soviet occupiers fled before the advancing German army, were not acting to save blond german maidens from violation (they may well have wanted to violate them themselves, if given the chance). They wanted to take revenge for the repression visited on them by Soviet rule.
That may be so, but then again, their contribution to the overall killing was marginal, epitomizing the pogroms that Hitler, in his above quoted speech, had rejected due to the ineffectiveness resulting from their emotional nature and lack of organization.
The willingness of the peoples of Eastern Europe to take part in anti-Jewish measures can only be explained in terms of their fear of the Jews as the force behind Bolshevik rule. Thus there is a connection with the ideas expressed by Ussishkin.
There is certainly such a connection, but these Eastern European participants, to the extent that their contribution was significant (i.e. when they were acting under German orders in SS and police formations) were but tools in the hand of their German superiors, whose motivations are likely to have been somewhat different.
Some of the quotes adduced by Mr Muehlenkamp are drawn from a work that has been called "Hitler's Second Book", or "Hitler's Secret Book".
I have checked the quotes from The Holocaust History Project that I transcribed in my last post against the translation of the “unexpurgated edition” of Mein Kampf first published on March 21st, 1939 by Hurst and Blackett Ltd., which is featured on the site of the neo-Nazi organization “Stormfront” under

http://www.stormfront.org/books/mein_kampf/index.html

The passages are translated somewhat differently in the latter source, but there can be no doubt that both translations refer to exactly the same passages:

VOLUME I

1. THHP quote and translation
Gab es denn da einen Unrat, eine Schamlosigkeit in irgendeiner Form, vor allem des kulturellen Lebens, an der nicht wenigstens ein Jude beteiligt gewesen wäre? Sowie man nur vorsichtig in eine solche Geschwulst hineinschnitt, fand man, wie die Made im faulenden Leibe, oft ganz geblendet vom plötzlichen Lichte, ein Jüdlein.

Was there any excrement, any shamelessness in any form, above all in cultural life, in which at least one Jew would not have been involved? As soon as one even carefully cut into such an abscess, one found, like maggots in a decaying body, often blinded by the sudden light, a kike.

Mein Kampf, 1925, Volume 1, p. 61.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/nazis-words/

1939 Hurst and Blackett translation

CHAPTER II
YEARS OF STUDY AND SUFFERING IN VIENNA

http://www.stormfront.org/books/mein_ka ... 1ch02.html
What soon gave me cause for very serious consideration were the activities of the Jews in certain branches of life, into the mystery of which I penetrated little by little. Was there any shady undertaking, any form of foulness, especially in cultural life, in which at least one Jew did not participate? On putting the probing knife carefully to that kind of abscess one immediately discovered, like a maggot in a putrescent body, a little Jew who was often blinded by the sudden light.
2. THHP quote and translation
Dies trifft in erster Linie zu bei dem Volke unter dessen Parasitentum besonders heute die ganze ehrliche Menschheit zu leiden hat: dem Judentum.

This applies foremost to that people under whose "parasiteness" all honorable humanity must suffer, especially today: Jewry.

Mein Kampf, 1925, Volume 1, p. 165.


http://www.holocaust-history.org/nazis-words/

1939 Hurst and Blackett translation

CHAPTER IV
MUNICH

http://www.stormfront.org/books/mein_ka ... 1ch04.html
This is chiefly applicable to that parasitic nation which, particularly at the present time preys upon the honest portion of mankind; I mean the Jews.


3. THHP quote and translation
Das furchtbarste Beispiel dieser Art bildet Rußland, wo er an dreißig Millionen Menschen in wahrhaft fanatischer Wildheit teilweise unter unmenschlichen Qualen tötete oder verhungern ließ, um einem Haufen jüdischer Literaten und Börsenbanditen die Herrschaft aber ein großes Volk zu sichern.

Das Ende aber ist nicht nur das Ende der Freiheit der vom Juden unterdrückten Völker, sondern auch das Ende dieses Völkerparasiten selber. Nach dem Tode des Opfers stirbt auch früher oder später der Vampir.

The most fearsome example of this kind is Russia where he (Jewry) allowed 39 million humans in truly fanatical wildness to die or starve in inhuman agony, in order to secure the mastery of a great people for a gang of Jewish literati and stock exchange bandits.

The result is not only the end of freedom for the people oppressed by the Jews, but rather also the end of these parasites of the peoples themselves. After the death of the victim, the vampire dies sooner or later.

Mein Kampf, 1925, Volume 1, p. 358.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/nazis-words/

1939 Hurst and Blackett translation

CHAPTER XI
RACE AND PEOPLE

http://www.stormfront.org/books/mein_ka ... 1ch11.html
Russia furnishes the most terrible example of such a slavery. In that country the Jew killed or starved thirty millions of the people, in a bout of savage fanaticism and partly by the employment of inhuman torture. And he did this so that a gang of Jewish literati and financial bandits should dominate over a great people.

But the final consequence is not merely that the people lose all their freedom under the domination of the Jews, but that in the end these parasites themselves disappear. The death of the victim is followed sooner or later by that of the vampire.


4. THHP quote and translation
Diese Verpestung unseres Blutes, an der Hunderttausende unseres Volkes wie blind vorübergehen, wird aber vom Juden heute planmäßig betrieben. Planmäßig schänden diese schwarzen Völkerparasiten unsere unerfahrenen, jungen blonden Mädchen und zerstören dadurch etwas, was auf dieser Welt nicht mehr ersetzt werden kann.

This contamination of our blood, which hundreds of thousands of our people blindly ignore, is used by the Jew today according to plan. These black parasites of the peoples deliberately violate our inexperienced, young blond girls and thereby destroy something that cannot be replaced in this world.

Mein Kampf, 1925, Volume 2, pp. 629-30.


http://www.holocaust-history.org/nazis-words/

1939 Hurst and Blackett translation

VOLUME II

CHAPTER X
THE MASK OF FEDERALISM

http://www.stormfront.org/books/mein_ka ... 2ch10.html
This pestilential adulteration of the blood, of which hundreds of thousands of our people take no account, is being systematically practised by the Jew to-day. Systematically these negroid parasites in our national body corrupt our innocent fair-haired girls and thus destroy something which can no longer be replaced in this world.


5. THHP quote and translation
Hätte man zu Kriegsbeginn und während des Krieges einmal zwölf- oder fünfzehntausend dieser hebräischen Volksverderber so unter Giftgas gehalten, wie Hunderttausende unserer allerbesten deutschen Arbeiter aus allen Schichten und Berufen es im Felde erdulden mußten, dann wäre das Millionenopfer der Front nicht vergeblich gewesen.

If we had at the beginning of, and during the war, subjected 12 or 15,000 of these Hebrew corrupters of the people to poison gas, as hundreds of thousands of our best German workers from all strata and occupations had to endure, then millions of victims of the Front would not have been in vain.

Mein Kampf, 1925, Volume 2, p. 772.
http://www.holocaust-history.org/nazis-words/

1939 Hurst and Blackett translation

CHAPTER XV
THE RIGHT TO SELF-DEFENCE

http://www.stormfront.org/books/mein_ka ... 2ch15.html
At the beginning of the War, or even during the War, if twelve or fifteen thousand of these Jews who were corrupting the nation had been forced to submit to poison-gas, just as hundreds of thousands of our best German workers from every social stratum and from every trade and calling had to face it in the field, then the millions of sacrifices made at the front would not have been in vain.
So where are the quotes from the "Secret Book"?
We are asked to believe that Hitler wrote the book entirely alone, and kept it totally secret from his closest intimates.
Not that it matters, but it’s funny to see Michael Mills using the staple slogans (“We are asked to believe …” ) that characterize the stance of his more primitive fellow “Revisionists”. :lol:
Last edited by Roberto on 10 May 2002 12:11, edited 1 time in total.

Dan
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Post by Dan » 10 May 2002 12:08

Michael, you wrote

"Illegitimate children, who might have non-Jewish fathers, were excluded as "bastards" [mamzer], and were not allowed to marry women of pure Jewish blood. "

This isn't quite right. The modern concept of race is no where to be found in the Bible. There is nothing in the law prohibiting bastards from joining the congregation that has to do with race, nothing said or even implied.

The laws against intercultural marriage were that with the exception of Moabites and Ammonites, if a foreigner was 3 generations in the land the marriage was perfectly legal.

Regards
Dan

Dan
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Post by Dan » 10 May 2002 13:05

Check this out:

Deuteronomy 23


2"One of illegitimate birth shall not enter the assembly of the LORD; even to the tenth generation none of his descendants shall enter the assembly of the LORD.
3"An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter the assembly of the LORD; even to the tenth generation none of his descendants shall enter the assembly of the LORD forever, 4because they did not meet you with bread and water on the road when you came out of Egypt, and because they hired against you Balaam the son of Beor from Pethor of Mesopotamia,[1] to curse you. 5Nevertheless the LORD your God would not listen to Balaam, but the LORD your God turned the curse into a blessing for you, because the LORD your God loves you. 6You shall not seek their peace nor their prosperity all your days forever.
7"You shall not abhor an Edomite, for he is your brother. You shall not abhor an Egyptian, because you were an alien in his land. 8The children of the third generation born to them may enter the assembly of the LORD.

Ovidius
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Post by Ovidius » 10 May 2002 13:45

Roberto wrote: 4. THHP quote and translation
Diese Verpestung unseres Blutes, an der Hunderttausende unseres Volkes wie blind vorübergehen, wird aber vom Juden heute planmäßig betrieben. Planmäßig schänden diese schwarzen Völkerparasiten unsere unerfahrenen, jungen blonden Mädchen und zerstören dadurch etwas, was auf dieser Welt nicht mehr ersetzt werden kann.

This contamination of our blood, which hundreds of thousands of our people blindly ignore, is used by the Jew today according to plan. These black parasites of the peoples deliberately violate our inexperienced, young blond girls and thereby destroy something that cannot be replaced in this world.
And below the quote from Stormfront:
1939 Hurst and Blackett translation

VOLUME II

CHAPTER X
THE MASK OF FEDERALISM
http://www.stormfront.org/books/mein_ka ... 2ch10.html

Quote:
This pestilential adulteration of the blood, of which hundreds of thousands of our people take no account, is being systematically practised by the Jew to-day. Systematically these negroid parasites in our national body corrupt our innocent fair-haired girls and thus destroy something which can no longer be replaced in this world.
Schwarz is the German term for black, here used not for the Jews' color(they are White), but a a symbol of the Devil they were supposed to represent.

Neger is the German term for Black man.

Our dear friends Stormfront.org, based on the lack of German language knowledge among the Americans, had translated schwarz as "negroid", thus giving a brilliant example of unfairness. :mrgreen:

~Ovidius

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Roberto
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Post by Roberto » 10 May 2002 16:29

Ovidius wrote:
Roberto wrote: 4. THHP quote and translation
Diese Verpestung unseres Blutes, an der Hunderttausende unseres Volkes wie blind vorübergehen, wird aber vom Juden heute planmäßig betrieben. Planmäßig schänden diese schwarzen Völkerparasiten unsere unerfahrenen, jungen blonden Mädchen und zerstören dadurch etwas, was auf dieser Welt nicht mehr ersetzt werden kann.

This contamination of our blood, which hundreds of thousands of our people blindly ignore, is used by the Jew today according to plan. These black parasites of the peoples deliberately violate our inexperienced, young blond girls and thereby destroy something that cannot be replaced in this world.
And below the quote from Stormfront:
1939 Hurst and Blackett translation

VOLUME II

CHAPTER X
THE MASK OF FEDERALISM
http://www.stormfront.org/books/mein_ka ... 2ch10.html

Quote:
This pestilential adulteration of the blood, of which hundreds of thousands of our people take no account, is being systematically practised by the Jew to-day. Systematically these negroid parasites in our national body corrupt our innocent fair-haired girls and thus destroy something which can no longer be replaced in this world.
Schwarz is the German term for black, here used not for the Jews' color(they are White), but a a symbol of the Devil they were supposed to represent.

Neger is the German term for Black man.

Our dear friends Stormfront.org, based on the lack of German language knowledge among the Americans, had translated schwarz as "negroid", thus giving a brilliant example of unfairness. :mrgreen:

~Ovidius
Well, Ovi, then you better tell them that they are staining the Führer's reputation. As this is certainly not their intention, they are even likely to be grateful for your advice.

However, I don't think the mistranslation is their fault. They tell us that the text they are featuring comes from the first English translation published by editors Hurst and Blackett Ltd. in 1939, and I see no reason why they should be lying about this.

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Post by michael mills » 10 May 2002 17:47

So where are the quotes from the "Secret Book"?
In the second block of quotations, the ones sourced from Peter Longerich's Expert Opinion. Look at paras 2.7 and 2.8 in that block, which refer to Hitler's "second book", also called his "secret book".

These are not to be confused with your quotations from "Mein Kampf", in your first block of quotations, which I commented on separately.

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Post by Roberto » 10 May 2002 17:53

michael mills wrote:
So where are the quotes from the "Secret Book"?
In the second block of quotations, the ones sourced from Peter Longerich's Expert Opinion. Look at paras 2.7 and 2.8 in that block, which refer to Hitler's "second book", also called his "secret book".

These are not to be confused with your quotations from "Mein Kampf", in your first block of quotations, which I commented on separately.
I appreciate the explanation.

Are any of Hitler's ideas expressed in the "Second Book" substantially different from those expressed in "Mein Kampf"?
We are asked to believe that Hitler wrote the book entirely alone, and kept it totally secret from his closest intimates. However, that is not borne out by comparison with the circumstances under which "Mein Kampf" was produced. Hitler had considerable help in the writing of that book; Rudolf Hess acted as his secretary, and probably wrote whole sections of the book which reflect his ideas derived from the Haushofer sshool of geopolitics. Therefore, it is extremely unlikely that Hitler wrote a book by himself in total secrecy.
Longerich’s first reference to the “Second Book” reads as follows:
2.7 In his book, MEIN KAMPF, which appeared in 1926 and especially in a manuscript written in 1927, which remained unpublished until after 1945 (his "Second Book"), Hitler placed this radical view, which leads to the "removal" of the Jews from Germany, within the context of a theory which he tried to derive historically.
http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.com/e ... /pl102.asp

Emphasis is mine.

Was Hitler still in prison together with Hess in 1927?

Are there any “Hessian” ideas in the “Second Book”?
The suspicion that the "Second Book" is a post-war forgery is strengthened by the resemblance of ideas expressed in it to the ideas expressed in the book "The Political Testament of Adolf Hitler" published originally by Francois Genoud.
What parallels can be detected between the “Second Book” and the “Political Testament”?
That book was claimed by Genoud to have been based on records of Hitler's monologues in early 1945 made by Goering, and which came into his hands in a very unusual way; however, it is suspected of being a forgery by Genoud himself.
Who has raised this suspicion, and on what grounds?

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Post by walterkaschner » 11 May 2002 01:07

Mr. Mills,

I am troubled by two points in your posts on this thread.

The first is your suggestion that a clue to the explanation for the "holocaust", which involved the killing of millions of Jews, may be found in a lengthy and increasingly emotional conversation held in 1920 between one Menachem Ussishkin (a somewhat prominent Jewish Zionist) and the British Governor of Jerusalem, which conversation concerned the latter's failure to prevent a series of Arab riots in which Jews were killed. Apparently in the heat of the conversation Ussishkin cited the fate of Czar Nicholas II of Russia, who had oppressed the Jews and ended up, with his wife and children, murdered by the Soviets, and then went on to state "In his place sits Trotsky. All our enemies in the world and in the land of Israel will also meet such an end".

From this you draw an elegant metaphor to explain the "holocaust" as a reaction to Jewish ideology.
I compare Hitler to a match that ignites an explosive charge. The reason why the match ignited is of lesser importance; without the presence of the explosive charge, the match will simply burn out harmlessly. My interest is in how that explosive charge that was the anti-Jewish sentiment of broad elements of the population, not only in Germany but more significantly in the whole of Eastern Europe, came into being. My contention is that that sentiment, consisting of a fear of the Jews, was a reaction to events in which Jewish ideology played a part, as revealed by the words of Menachem Ussishkin. Without that sentiment, that fear, that explosive charge, Hitler's own personal anti-Semitism would have had no effect.
Although you recognize (a) that Ussishkin's statements may have been made in the heat of passion [which seems to me from their substance and context highly likely] and that he may have been "exaggerating somewhat"; (b) that his ideological standpoint may not have been representative of "the Jewish leadership as a whole"[and I would submit that at that time there was, nor has there ever been before or since, a Jewish leadership united on either political, diplomatic or religious grounds]; and (c) that Ussishkin's standpoint may not have even been known to European anti-Semites [and you offer no evidence that it was, and in my admittedly general reading I can not recall even a mention of Ussishkin], you nonetheless conclude that:

"t may be assumed that the views expressed by Ussishkin had filtered through to non-Jews and had contributed to the rise of an anti-Semitism based on fear of Jews to which the American-Jewish historian Richard Pipes refers to in his book "Russia Under The Bolshevik Regime". (Incidentally, I have read Pipes' book and can not concur with your view that he attributes the rise of anti-Semitism, as demonstrated by the White pogroms during the Russian Civil War, to fear of the Jews.)

Frankly, I think the support for your above assumption is simply too flimsy to stand.


I think no one could reasonably argue that the "holocaust" could have taken place without a broad base of anti-Jewish sentiment among the peoples of Eastern and Central Europe. But IMHO, your contention that this sentiment came into being as a reaction to the Bolshevik revolution, the horrors of which were believed to have been inspired by a Jewish ideology which demanded revenge for past oppression, is, as we say in Texas, a dog that just won't hunt. It ignores the revival (to me still inexplicable) of virulent anti-Semitism throughout much of Europe during the 19th and early 20th century, which assumed alarming and deadly proportions long before the 1917 Russian revolution. Witness e.g. the Russian pogroms of 1881, the anti-Jewish legislation adopted in Rumania, the Boulangist movement and the Dreyfuss affair in France, the publication and circulation of the bogus "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", etc. There was a wealth of anti-Jewish sentiment in Europe long before the 1917 Revolution, the cause (or more likely causes) of which I have yet to find a satisfying answer to. Certain of its roots reach back far into history, perhaps to the beginning of the Christian era.

Moreover, your notion that Hitler only lit a match to the anti-Semitism that already existed strikes me as simplistic in the extreme. There can be no question that Hitler attempted by every means at his command, both before and after he took office, to stimulate, encourage and aggravate the anti-Jewish sentiment already existing and to implant and nourish such a sentiment where it had not theretofore existed. And there can be no question but that he was hugely successful, both at home and elsewhere in Europe. The apparent economic, diplomatic, political and social acheivements of a régime based on rabid anti-Semitism inevitably worked to convert many of the masses to the same persuasion and to intensify the conviction of those already persuaded.

In this I am convinced that, despite the predilection of large numbers of Central and Eastern Europeans toward anti-Jewish sentiments, without Hitler there would have been no holocaust. He not only provided the match, he managed to increase the explosive charge to theretofore undreamed of lethal levels and to direct the resultant detonation in such a way as to maximize its effect upon the intended targets.

My second problem with your posts deals with your notion that Hitler's "Second Book" is probably a spurious forgery. I would be interested in learning of your basis for that notion, as its legitimacy seems to have been generally accepted by reputable historians, and I am aware of no evidence of any attempt, then or now, to keep it "secret". It is included in ""Hitler. Reden, Schriften, Anordnungen: Februar 1925 bis Januar 1933", Institut für Zeitgeschichte, 5vols., 1992-1998, and cited with approval in Kershaw, "Hitler 1889-1936 Hubris, W.W. Norton & Co. 1999, at 291-2. Kershaw states that Hitler hurriedly dictated the book to Max Amann in the summer of 1928, as a consequence of a then raging controversy over Mussolini's treatment of the German speaking population in the South Tyrol region of Italy, as to which Hitler's support of Mussolini had proved to be something of an embarrasment; he suspects that Hitler was persuaded not to publish it in the fear that it would compete against the second volume of "Mein Kampf", which was not at the time selling well. In any event, from all accounts the Second Book adds nothing of basic substance to the first (I confess to having spared myself the former's reading, on the excuse that for one of my age the excruciating boredom of plowing through "Mein Kampf" is enough punishment for the sin of curiosity) .

Regards, Kaschner

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