Death by Quicklime

[Ben Fanjoy]

Hello gentlemen,

I just completed reading the Pulitzer Prize winning book "Masters of Death: The SS-Einsatzgruppen and the Invention of the Holocaust".

In one chapter the auther quotes a story(eyewitness account, he performed sorting of the deads belongings) told by a Polish man, Mieczyslaw Sekiewicz, regarding "Aktions" in the West Polish city of Konin. In the account, he calims to have seen two death pits in which Jews were packed, alive, to the brim. On each "layer" of bodies, quicklime was sprinkled. He then said the SS hosed down the pit with water, in turn, turning the quicklime into a caustic substance, thus "boiling", as he put it, the victems. Needless to say he goes on about the un-godly screams and cries of the poor victems. They would not have boiled, but "melted". He says the day after when the Germans came back to fill the pits with soil, the corpses appered to have sunken, from literaly melting away (the flesh).

My question is, has anybody ever heard such a grizzley account as this? Is this true? I have never before heard such an account, it is very un-settling, in the least.

Also the same man claims to have seen mobile gas vans used, he describes a Dark Grey vehicle, resembling an ambulance. He sais when the doors were opened a mass of tangled corpses fell to the ground. He also noted the smell of gas. My problem, or question rather, about this account, is that I was under the impression the SS used bottled Carbon Monoxide in these vans? and isnt Carbon Monoxide oderless???

Thank you,

John

[xcalibur]

This account does seem rather fanciful...That lime was used on corpses as a deodorant is entirely within the realm of possibibility, but as an agent of murder seems like a gross and distorted exageration.

[David Thompson]

JohnFriedhoff -- You said: "I just completed reading the Pulitzer Prize winning book "Masters of Death: The SS-Einsatzgruppen and the Invention of the Holocaust"."

I hope you don't think I'm nit-picking, but wouldn't it be more accurate to say ""Masters of Death,' written by Richard Rhodes, who won the Pulitzer Prize for his work 'The Making of the Atomic Bomb'" . . . .

[Michael Miller]

Thanks for clearing that up, David- I was thinking it a bit odd that a book which appears (from a few cursory glances at Barnes & Noble) to just be a catalog of information gathered from other published sources should garner a P.P.

Best wishes,
~ Mike

[Peter H]

This on Quick Lime:

Pure quick lime is amazing stuff. It can, under many circumstances, react violently with water. If you add a pound of quick lime to two pounds of water, the mixture may heat to boiling. The reaction with water can send showers of caustic quick lime particles all over a room, causing burns. Getting quick lime in one's eyes will almost certainly cause significant damage, and often results in the loss of sight.

...but boiling point would only lead to scalding?

[Caldric]

This on Quick Lime:

Pure quick lime is amazing stuff. It can, under many circumstances, react violently with water. If you add a pound of quick lime to two pounds of water, the mixture may heat to boiling. The reaction with water can send showers of caustic quick lime particles all over a room, causing burns. Getting quick lime in one's eyes will almost certainly cause significant damage, and often results in the loss of sight.

...but boiling point would only lead to scalding?

Boiling point will lead to certain death, lime also eats away flesh.

Quicklime hastens decompostion, that is the main reason for using it not to just cover the odor.

[Caldric]

Also the same man claims to have seen mobile gas vans used, he describes a Dark Grey vehicle, resembling an ambulance. He sais when the doors were opened a mass of tangled corpses fell to the ground. He also noted the smell of gas. My problem, or question rather, about this account, is that I was under the impression the SS used bottled Carbon Monoxide in these vans? and isnt Carbon Monoxide oderless???

These were not bottled gas vans these were from what I understand when he says gas coming from it, he is smelling the harsh smell of burnt gas, if anyone has a garage they can attest that exhaust has a strong eye watering smell, the smell of burnt gas. Is the only way he could have smelled it.

[Ben Fanjoy]

JohnFriedhoff -- You said: "I just completed reading the Pulitzer Prize winning book "Masters of Death: The SS-Einsatzgruppen and the Invention of the Holocaust"."

I hope you don't think I'm nit-picking, but wouldn't it be more accurate to say ""Masters of Death,' written by Richard Rhodes, who won the Pulitzer Prize for his work 'The Making of the Atomic Bomb'" . . . .

No, you are 100% correct, my error.

[Ben Fanjoy]

These were not bottled gas vans these were from what I understand when he says gas coming from it, he is smelling the harsh smell of burnt gas, if anyone has a garage they can attest that exhaust has a strong eye watering smell, the smell of burnt gas. Is the only way he could have smelled it.

Very interesting, thank you. I just noticed the thread on Gas Vans.

Anybody else know anymore regarding the quicklime account?

[Caldric]

These were not bottled gas vans these were from what I understand when he says gas coming from it, he is smelling the harsh smell of burnt gas, if anyone has a garage they can attest that exhaust has a strong eye watering smell, the smell of burnt gas. Is the only way he could have smelled it.

Very interesting, thank you. I just noticed the thread on Gas Vans.

Anybody else know anymore regarding the quicklime account?

Yes I will not be getting into that debate...

[Scott Smith]

Anybody else know anymore regarding the quicklime account?

Quicklime and water is a strong base, and dissolves flesh better than acid, so it is used for disinfection of decomposing corpses in mass-graves.

It was just another atrocity claim presented at Nuremberg but I don't remember the "Suess Books" citation for it.

My chemistry teacher in college doubted the mass-gassings for some reason but believed that the six-million were quicklimed to death in the cattle cars. Evidently he didn't know of the availability of gaschambers to fumigate entire boxcars, which the Germans certainly would have used over insecticide, engine exhaust, cylinders of CO, steam broiling, electrocution, quicklime pits, burning alive, etc., etc.

http://www.codoh.com/gcgv/gcdelouse.html

Mostly the quicklime story has been dropped but Jan Karski has used it:

"A Fake Eyewitness to Mass Murder at Belzec," by Theodore J. O’Keefe.

[Roberto]

Anybody else know anymore regarding the quicklime account?

Quicklime and water is a strong base, and dissolves flesh better than acid, so it is used for disinfection of decomposing corpses in mass-graves.

It was just another atrocity claim presented at Nuremberg but I don't remember the "Suess Books" citation for it.

Can you show us when and how during the Nuremberg trial this "atrocity claim" was presented and what evidence was produced in support thereof?

And thereafter explain what you think is wrong with the evidence?

My chemistry teacher in college doubted the mass-gassings for some reason but believed that the six-million were quicklimed to death in the cattle cars. Evidently he didn't know of the availability of gaschambers to fumigate entire boxcars, which the Germans certainly would have used over insecticide,

"Revisionist" reasoning at its best. What is all documentary, eyewitness and physical evidence compared to a true believer's considerations, as arrogant as they are irrelevant, about what he thinks the killers would have done "if they had been serious about killing"?

engine exhaust, cylinders of CO, steam broiling, electrocution, quicklime pits, burning alive, etc., etc.

Some confirmed by conclusive evidence, others not. Of course "Revisionists" don't even bother to try sifting the wheat from the chaff. The existence of some chaff means that all is chaff and there's no wheat at all, in their conveniently confused minds.

Mostly the quicklime story has been dropped but Jan Karski has used it:

"A Fake Eyewitness to Mass Murder at Belzec," by Theodore J. O’Keefe.

Why, another "fake eyewitness". Absolutely shocking. Coming from someone for whom every eyewitness to events incompatible with his pre-conceived notions and ideological believes is by definition "fake", O'Keefe's ramblings should, of course, be approached with the skepticism that the self-proclaimed "skeptic" Smith is conspicuously lacking when it comes to the utterances of one of his gurus.

[Scott Smith]

Anybody else know anymore regarding the quicklime account?

Quicklime and water is a strong base, and dissolves flesh better than acid, so it is used for disinfection of decomposing corpses in mass-graves.

It was just another atrocity claim presented at Nuremberg but I don't remember the "Suess Books" citation for it.

Can you show us when and how during the Nuremberg trial this "atrocity claim" was presented and what evidence was produced in support thereof?

I'm sure that zero evidence was presented for it just like the jar of Human Soap called IMT Exhibit CCCP-393. At any rate, I think the citation is in the Seuss books and I'm fairly certain I've seen it in the Red Books (or was it the Green or Blue?). It's also in the Black Book of Polish Jewry published during the war by Albert Einstein, Eleanor Roosevelt, et al.

David will probably scan and post it before nightfall or provide you with a Yale-Avalon link.

Of course, the story is true--the Allies said so! Whether some Greuelpropagandists have chosen to use it or not.

Why, another "fake eyewitness". Absolutely shocking. Coming from someone for whom every eyewitness to events incompatible with his pre-conceived notions and ideological believes is by definition "fake", O'Keefe's ramblings should, of course, be approached with the skepticism that the self-proclaimed "skeptic" Smith is conspicuously lacking when it comes to the utterances of one of his gurus.

What is absolutely shocking is that Holocaustorians have seldom subjected claims from the likes of self-promoters like Karski to any skepticism at all. Of course, the Holocaust is more theology than History--and theology needs no factual-scientific basis whatever as long as everyone Always Believes. Karski Bears Witness!

[chalutzim]

Of course, the Holocaust is more theology than History--and theology needs no factual-scientific basis whatever as long as everyone Always Believes. Karski Bears Witness!

But this kind of theology needs a reverend, a skeptical priest, and fortunately TRF found one! ALWAYS BELIEVE!

[Roberto]

Anybody else know anymore regarding the quicklime account?

Quicklime and water is a strong base, and dissolves flesh better than acid, so it is used for disinfection of decomposing corpses in mass-graves.

It was just another atrocity claim presented at Nuremberg but I don't remember the "Suess Books" citation for it.

Can you show us when and how during the Nuremberg trial this "atrocity claim" was presented and what evidence was produced in support thereof?

I'm sure that zero evidence was presented for it just like the jar of Human Soap called IMT Exhibit CCCP-393.

Then show us when and how it was presented with "zero evidence". Don't try to run away.

At any rate, I think the citation is in the Seuss books and I'm fairly certain I've seen it in the Red Books (or was it the Green or Blue?). It's also in the Black Book of Polish Jewry published during the war by Albert Einstein, Eleanor Roosevelt, et al.

Then look it up and trancribe it, or submit to the conclusion that you were once again talking through your hat.

David will probably scan and post it before nightfall or provide you with a Yale-Avalon link.

That's your job, Smith, for you were the one who opened his big mouth.

Of course, the story is true--the Allies said so!

Did they, Smith?

If so, we would probably find it in the IMT's judgement. Search engine entries "lime" "quick lime" and "quicklime" for the text under

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/imt/proc/judwarcr.htm

yielded no results, but maybe the omniscient Smith will be luckier.

Whether some Greuelpropagandists have chosen to use it or not.

What are "Greuelpropagandists", once again? Historians who follow the inconvenient evidence to the crimes of Smith's beloved Nazi regime?

Why, another "fake eyewitness". Absolutely shocking. Coming from someone for whom every eyewitness to events incompatible with his pre-conceived notions and ideological believes is by definition "fake", O'Keefe's ramblings should, of course, be approached with the skepticism that the self-proclaimed "skeptic" Smith is conspicuously lacking when it comes to the utterances of one of his gurus.

What is absolutely shocking is that Holocaustorians have seldom subjected claims from the likes of self-promoters like Karski to any skepticism at all.

How does Smith know this?

Because one of his gurus told him so?

Or because he can offer us an example of a historian having blindly relied on Mr. Karski's testimony without cross-checking it against other evidence, even though there were good reasons to be suspicious about it?

Of course, the Holocaust is more theology than History--and theology needs no factual-scientific basis whatever as long as everyone Always Believes. Karski Bears Witness!

Smith should know by now where he can stick this blah-blah-blah that obviously bores not only me.

If he could show us i) what is supposed to wrong with Karski's testimony, ii) what historian is supposed to have failed to duly examine indications of the unreliability of this witness and iii) why it is appropriate to conclude from such fallacious assessment of Karski’s testimonial by one or the other historian on a fallacious assessment of eyewitness testimonials in general by "Holocaustorians" in general, he would be less ridiculous.