East Prussia january 1945

Discussions on WW2 in Eastern Europe.
User avatar
donwhite
Member
Posts: 164
Joined: 17 Dec 2004 00:38
Location: Australia

Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by donwhite » 25 Jul 2018 06:45

Without either Martin or Kamen re-entering the discussion (both are pretty authoritative from their use of primary sources -although Martin looks to be stronger ground in tracing the actual shipment of StuG's) maybe some one with access to A.Stephan Hamilton's "Panzergrendiers to the Front: The Combat History of Panzergrendier Division 'Brandenburg' on the Eastern Front" can clarify the issue of exactly what the Division had when it relocated south to Lodz.

Cheers

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 5242
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by Art » 26 Jul 2018 21:22

Thanks for your help anyway.
Ok, here is an overview of armored vehicles in the HE Mitte (including XXVIII corps isolated at Memel) on 30.12.1944/15.1.1945 based on Panzer-lage, StuG lage, Pak (sf) lage etc from early February 45. Numbers given as operational + repair)

AOK 2

542 V.Gr.D – 2 Pz. III (l), 14 StuG. IV, (30.12) 1+1 Pak (Sf) Total 18
252 ID – 1+2 StuG.IV, (30.12) 4 Pak (Sf) Total 7
35 ID – 13 StuG. III, 3 Pak (Sf.) Total 16
5 Jg.D – 13+2 StuG. III, 3+1 T-34 Total 19
7 ID – 13+1 StuG.IV total 14
299 ID - 9+1 Stug.III Total 10
292 ID 8+2 StuG IV total 10
14 ID 11+2 StuG III Total 13
102 ID 10+2 StuG IV Total 12
7 PzD – (15.1) 1 Pz. III, 2 Flak.Pz. IV, 28+1 Pz.IV, 29+2 Pz. IV (70), 37 Pz. V, 1 Pz.Bef.III, 0+3 Pz.Beob. III, 1+1 T-34 (30.12) 13+1 Pak (Sf) Total 120

Sep. units:
s.Pz.Abt 505 51+4 Pz.VI (30.12) total 55
St.G.Br. 190 (30.12) 26 StuG.III, 6+1 StuH 42 Total 33
St.G.Br. 249 (30.12) 18+1 StuG.III, 8+1 StuH 42 Total 28
St.G.Br. 276 (15.1) 13+1 StuG. III, 7+4 StuH 42 Total 25
St.G.Br. 904 (15.1) 17+1 StuG.III, 13 StuH 42 Total 31
St.G.Br. 909 (15.1) 19+2 StuG. IV, 9 StuH 42 Total 30

Total 441

AOK 4

562 V.-Gr.D - 9+1 StuG III Total 10
541 V.Gr.D - 14 StuG IV Total 14
131 ID - 9 StuG IV Total 9
558 V.Gr. - 9 StuG III Total 9
170 ID - 3+4 StuG III Total 7
367 ID - 8+2 StuG III total 10
50 ID - 10 StuG III (30.12) 3+1 Pak (Sf.) Total 14
28 Jg.D – 10 Stug.III Total 10
21 ID - 2 StuG III Total 2
2 Fsch.Pz.Gr.D “HG” 29+2 StuG III total 31
61 ID - 5+2 StuG IV Total 7
1 Fsch.Pz.D “HG” - 27+8 Pz IV, 38+7 Pz.V, 3 Pz.Bef.IV, 2+2 Pz.Beob.IV (30.12) 1 Pak (Sf) Total 88
18 Pz.Gr.D - 2 Pz.Bef.III, 31 Stug.III, 2+1 StuH 42 Total 36

Sep. units:
Pz.K HG (corps troops) – 6 Pz.38(t) (30.12) 4+4 Pak (Sf), 13+5 JgPz IV total 32
St.G. Br. 185 - 20+2 StuG III, 5+1 StuH 42 total 28
St.G. Br. 209 - 15+1 StuG.III, 13 StuH 42 total 29
St.G. Br. 259 - 19+8 Stug.III, 12+3 StuH 42 Total 42
St.G. Br. 279 - 13+1 StuG. III, 5 StuH 42 Total 19
4./St.G.L.Br. 920 - (15.1) 6 StuG III Total 6

Total 403

Pz.AOK 3

549 V.-Gr.D - 4+2 StuG III Total 6
349 V.-Gr.D - 11+1 JgPz 38 Total 12
1 ID - 9+1 StuG III Total 10
69 ID - 10 StuG III Total 10
56 ID - 10 StuG III Total 10
561 V.Gr.D - 10 StuG III Total 10
548 V.Gr.D - 6 StuG IV Total 6
58 ID - 7+1 StuG III, 7 StuG IV, 1 StuH 42 Total 18
95 ID - 8 StuG III, 8 StuG IV, 3 Hetzer Total 19
5 Pz.D (15.1) 8+20 Pz.IV, 15+25 Pz.V, 2 Pz.Bef.III, 2 Pz.Bef.IV. 3+1 Pz.Beob.III, 0+1 Pz.Beob.IV, 1+4 StuG III (30.12), 9+1 Pak (Sf), 25+11 JgPz IV total 128

Sep. units:
s.Pz. Abt. 505 - 34+3 Pz.VI Total 37
s.Pz.Abt. 502 (at Memel) – 17+15 Pz.VI total 32
St.G. Br. 203 - 20+2 StuG III, 6+3 StuH 42 Total 31
St.G. Br. 232 - 21 StuG III, 8 StuH 42 total 29
St.G. Br. 277 - 12+3 StuG III, 10 StuH 42 total 25
St.G. Br. 278 (at Memel) - 17+2 StuG III, 7+1 StuG IV, 8+3 StuH 42 Total 38

Total 421

Under the Army Group or with unknown assignment:

Pz.Gr.D ”GD” 16+6 Pz.38(t), 2+2 Pz.IV, 56+5 Pz.V, 15+4 Pz.VI, 1 Pz.Bef. III, 2+1 Pz.Beob.III, 2 StuG. III, 1 StuH 42, 4 Pak (Sf) (+21 Pz IV (lg) shipped on 10.1) Total 117 (+21 arriving)
Pz.Gr.D “Brandenburg” - 21 StuG IV arriving (shipped on 1.1.45)
Pz.Abt. Fkl. 302 - 2 Pz.Bef.IV, 26+2 StuG III (attached to GD) Total 30
St.Pz.Abt 218 - 9+1 Pz.IV 15cm (attached to GD) Total 10
He.Art. Brig.88 - 6 Pz. IV, 2 Pz.Beob. III Total 8
Pz.Sich.Kp. 350 - 10 Pz.II Total 10
Pz.Jg.Abt 664 - 9 Hashorns Total 9
Pz.Jg.Kp 1233 9+1 StuG III Total 10
Stu.G.Abt. 1006(L) – 11 StuG III Total 11
1./Pz.Jg.Abt 741 – 12+2 JgPz 38 Total 14

Total 219 + 42 arriving

Arriving to the Army Group's area:
24 Pz.D (30.12) 1 Pz.III, 5+6 Pz.IV, 3+4 Pz.IVL70, 1+1 Pz.Bef.III, 1+0 Pz.Beob.III (30.12) 1+3 StuG. III, 2+2 StuH 42 (30.12) 17+4 JgPz.IV Total 51

So total well above 1500 tanks, assault guns and self-propelled guns operational or in repair. Of them 1 HG and Brandenburg divisions were transferred to Poland before being involved in any action, that is 88 AFV on hand plus 21 in transfer. I have only a vague idea if any about identity and location of some smaller units. What were exactly Pz.Jg.Kp 1233 or Stu.G.Abt. 1006(L), for example? Returning to the official Soviet history of WWII: the volume 10 estimated 700 tanks, SP and assault guns with German forces in Prussia. Those numbers became almost canonical but they are a gross underestimate as demonstrated above. Funny considering a common idea that Soviet histories always inflated German numbers.

Also a topic with somewhat different stats:
https://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15588

FORBIN Yves
Member
Posts: 180
Joined: 23 Aug 2017 10:57
Location: FRANCE

Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by FORBIN Yves » 27 Jul 2018 22:08

Intersting and mainly a lot of Stugs each ID have about a Company easy to produce also in Pz Rgts replacing Tanks but less efficient than a tank with turret.

User avatar
donwhite
Member
Posts: 164
Joined: 17 Dec 2004 00:38
Location: Australia

Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by donwhite » 28 Jul 2018 09:41

I'd assume Pz.Jag.Kp's and StuG.Abt's mentioned seperately in the Pz Lage are units that have not been integrated into their parent divisions (maybe the parent unit was disbanded/destroyed while the company component was still in the process of forming?). The former seem to be shuffled about bit. See here in a discussion about Pz.Jag.Abt. 510.

https://www.feldgrau.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15539


Cheers

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 5242
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by Art » 29 Jul 2018 18:21

Stug.Abt 1006 (L) was apparently formed for the 6 Luftwaffe Field Division, which was destroyed at Vitebsk in June 1944. The Abteilung must continue as an independent unit after that, not clear to me where it was and to what formation was assigned exactly.

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 5242
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by Art » 31 Jul 2018 11:40

Back to Soviet armor: 1 Guards Tank Corps as of 15 January 45:

Total on strength 50 IS-122, 70 ISU-152, 63 SU-100, 21 SU-85, 21 SU-76, 3 T-34. Total 228 tanks and SP guns
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=454953578

Several days later the number of T-34 increased to 10, probably 7 tanks were received as reinforcements.
Other armored vehicles included 30 BA-64 armored cars, 14 Mk-I (Universal carriers), 16 M3A1 scout cars, and 20 M-17 anti-aircraft half-tracks.
The corps had a very unique organization where each tank brigades had one battalion of IS-122 tanks, one battalion of ISU-152 and one battalion of SU-100 SP guns (it was one of the first cases of employment of SU-100) instead of a normal establishment (three medium tank battalions - T-34 or Shermans). In a typical Soviet way nearly all armored vehicles were shipped to the corps virtually in the last days before the operation, whereas neither crews nor maintenance personnel had any previous experience with those types. Also unsurprisingly 'experimental" brigades were lacking mobility, needed heavy bridges and were suffering from a lack of machine gun armament on SP guns. Evacuation of damaged vehicles was problematic, since available tractors were not suitable for towing heavy tanks and SP guns.
By 26.1.45 irreparable losses of tanks and SP guns made up 54 vehicles (8 IS-122, 20 ISU-152, 18 SU-100, 7 SU-85, 3 SU-76)
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=454954400

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 5242
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by Art » 31 Jul 2018 12:56

8 Guards Tank Corps

Evening 13.01.45 - total 146 T-34, 50 M4A2, 1 Mk-IX, 21 IS-122, 43 SU-85, almost all of them operational:
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=454551143

Evening 31.01.45 - total 113 T-34, 35 M4A2, 1 Mk-IX, 17 IS-122, 33 SU-85, of them operational - 48 T-34, 10 M4A2, 7 IS-122, 20 SU-85
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=454551160

So lost to the end of January were 33 T-34, 15 M4A2, 4 IS-122, 10 SU-85, total 52 tanks and SP guns.

FORBIN Yves
Member
Posts: 180
Joined: 23 Aug 2017 10:57
Location: FRANCE

Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by FORBIN Yves » 31 Jul 2018 13:03

Woow great !

For 1 Guards Tank Corps only 3 T-34 really surprising ! Su-100 in january 1945 begin to arrive in units in large Numbers.

Irreparable losses very reasonnable in 2 weeks about 25 %

And big Numbers 260 Tanks/SPGs for 8 Guards Tank Corps as 29 TC/5 GTA, i have the 11 GTC in 1st Belarussian Front to 284 without Su-57 !!! severals others TC/MC to 260 - 280, certain same for 1st Ukrainian Front.

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 5242
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by Art » 31 Jul 2018 17:30

8 Mechanized Corps at the start of the operation:
185 M4A2, 5 T-34, 21 IS-122, 21 SU-85, 21 SU-76. Total 253
Other vehicles and weapons - 53 armored carriers, 32 armored cars, 19 M-17 half-tracks, 203 motorcycles, 1405 cars and trucks, 40 76-mm, 40 57-mm, 16 37-mm, 2 20-mm (?) guns, 8 M-13 rocket launchers, 54 120-mm and 100 82-mm mortars, 40 DShK, 139 medium and 393 light machine guns, 293 AT rifles, 5992 SMGs, 6949 rifles.
16 279 men.
From a corps' after-action report:
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=211326305

User avatar
donwhite
Member
Posts: 164
Joined: 17 Dec 2004 00:38
Location: Australia

Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by donwhite » 02 Aug 2018 12:27

Great posts again Art,

With regards to the 'unique' organisation of 1st Guards Tank Corps can it be assumed that it was not because of any shortage in T-34/85's but rather the many fortified lines they were expected to encounter? The late equipping of upgraded AFV's without any time to acclimatise/train is very interesting as this contrasts distinctly with German units receiving entirely different armoured vehicles whereby they were withdrawn and trained up before returning to the front (in the case of upgrades to Pz Mk V's or Mark VI B's etc.) The accumulated loss figures you post for 26th January do not seem excessive by any means (not sure how much actual armour combat was involved up to this point) so unfamiliarity with the new equipment doe not seem to be an issue. I assume 1st Guards Tank tank holdings were up to reasonable strength prior to the late re-equiping/upgrades or was this actually a rebuild of sorts?

Cheers

Kelvin
Member
Posts: 2463
Joined: 06 Apr 2007 14:49

Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by Kelvin » 03 Aug 2018 08:14

Given relatively small area in comparision with Soviet territories, should German had invested heavily in several sets of fortified sector, perhaps they can resist Soviet assault. I highly appreciate the success of Soviet defence at Kursk in 1943, though many factor led to their success, like Allied invasion of Sicily. Of course, German needed to transfer panzer force from Hungary and also infantry troop in Kurland to bolster up several line of defence.

FORBIN Yves
Member
Posts: 180
Joined: 23 Aug 2017 10:57
Location: FRANCE

Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by FORBIN Yves » 03 Aug 2018 11:46

Kelvin wrote:
03 Aug 2018 08:14
Given relatively small area in comparision with Soviet territories, should German had invested heavily in several sets of fortified sector, perhaps they can resist Soviet assault. I highly appreciate the success of Soviet defence at Kursk in 1943, though many factor led to their success, like Allied invasion of Sicily. Of course, German needed to transfer panzer force from Hungary and also infantry troop in Kurland to bolster up several line of defence.
FORBIN Yves wrote:
20 Jun 2018 12:17

In AG Mitte and 2A Reserves : 3rd and 6 Pz Div transfered in Hungary ( arrive 8 and 20/12/44 to front ) BTW the 3rd was excellent with 168 tanks/assault guns/Jpz !!!

And with 9 Army AG Mitte/A Reserves change the 26/12... the 25/12 IV PZK SS to Modlin area also transfered in Hungary with 180 in 3 and 5th Pz SS reinforced by 2 Inf Bns of the 11 PZG SS.
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... 9Armee.htm

User avatar
Cult Icon
Member
Posts: 1458
Joined: 08 Apr 2014 19:00

Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by Cult Icon » 03 Aug 2018 17:56

Art wrote:
23 Jul 2018 14:26
Ok, I've got it. What I don't understand is whether Stug. Br. GD had any assault guns present in mid-January.
Also:
1) "Brandeburg" has 21 StuG IV shipped to its AT battalion on 1.1.45. Where they actually present with the division?
2) GD had 21 Pz. IV lg. shipped to its AT battalion on 10.1.45. Did they arrive to it and were they present with the division when it was committed to battle (15 January 45)?

1) Yes, 21 Stug IVs combat ready in BR's PZJ-battalion on Jan 15th.

Stug Brigade G.D. had 35 x Stug III and StuH and was attached to BR. It was to be replaced by II.Btl./Pz.Rgt. "BR" but this never came.

The I./Batl./Pz Rgt "BR" was the renamed 1st battalion from the 26th Panzer Division. It was equipped with 45 Panthers.

I'll answer question 2 later.

Kelvin
Member
Posts: 2463
Joined: 06 Apr 2007 14:49

Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by Kelvin » 04 Aug 2018 05:17

Cult Icon wrote:
03 Aug 2018 17:56
Art wrote:
23 Jul 2018 14:26
Ok, I've got it. What I don't understand is whether Stug. Br. GD had any assault guns present in mid-January.
Also:
1) "Brandeburg" has 21 StuG IV shipped to its AT battalion on 1.1.45. Where they actually present with the division?
2) GD had 21 Pz. IV lg. shipped to its AT battalion on 10.1.45. Did they arrive to it and were they present with the division when it was committed to battle (15 January 45)?

1) Yes, 21 Stug IVs combat ready in BR's PZJ-battalion on Jan 15th.

Stug Brigade G.D. had 35 x Stug III and StuH and was attached to BR. It was to be replaced by II.Btl./Pz.Rgt. "BR" but this never came.

The I./Batl./Pz Rgt "BR" was the renamed 1st battalion from the 26th Panzer Division. It was equipped with 45 Panthers.

I'll answer question 2 later.
Hi, Cult Iron, which docment confirms PG division Br had 21 StuG IV on 15th Jan 1945, may you tell me about that, thank

Kelvin
Member
Posts: 2463
Joined: 06 Apr 2007 14:49

Re: East Prussia january 1945

Post by Kelvin » 04 Aug 2018 05:38

FORBIN Yves wrote:
03 Aug 2018 11:46
Kelvin wrote:
03 Aug 2018 08:14
Given relatively small area in comparision with Soviet territories, should German had invested heavily in several sets of fortified sector, perhaps they can resist Soviet assault. I highly appreciate the success of Soviet defence at Kursk in 1943, though many factor led to their success, like Allied invasion of Sicily. Of course, German needed to transfer panzer force from Hungary and also infantry troop in Kurland to bolster up several line of defence.
FORBIN Yves wrote:
20 Jun 2018 12:17

In AG Mitte and 2A Reserves : 3rd and 6 Pz Div transfered in Hungary ( arrive 8 and 20/12/44 to front ) BTW the 3rd was excellent with 168 tanks/assault guns/Jpz !!!

And with 9 Army AG Mitte/A Reserves change the 26/12... the 25/12 IV PZK SS to Modlin area also transfered in Hungary with 180 in 3 and 5th Pz SS reinforced by 2 Inf Bns of the 11 PZG SS.
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gli ... 9Armee.htm
Hi, Forbin, 3. Panzer division had no more than 100 tank/AG/TD in Jan 1945, only 62 RFA on Jan 1 1945.

Return to “WW2 in Eastern Europe”