S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

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jopaerya
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by jopaerya » 07 Aug 2018 15:49

Thanks Jürgen

Your right I put the 7.5cm guns in the other Topic , are you 100% sure all the outer walls
were in A = 3.50 . Because bunkers in heavy coast batterie's build in the same period were
build in B and should be later added with a extra layer of concrete of 1.50 cm . Just like
B. Le Havre , B. Hamburg and B. Marcouf ??

Regards Jos

jopaerya
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by jopaerya » 07 Aug 2018 15:52

Hello Wim

There was no need for a great hole in machine room , a few pipes would be enough I think .

Regards Jos

wimve
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by wimve » 07 Aug 2018 16:01

I did read your topic.

Toilets:
is there evidence of a septic tank or other sewer connection (outside) ?

Tunnel/cable ducts:
The power cable connection to the turret is clear to me as far as we can see on pictures. They go down to the "under water" section.
After that you "suggest" a tunnel going to the center of the gun pit. That is possible.
But a more "simple" cable duct in the floor would be possible too. I think that easy access was no. 1.

Engine room (9) floorgulleys are not mentioned in your report.

Shaft (14) are there any coal (black remains) visible on the walls ?

Is there a chimney (remains) above ground ? which leads to room 20 ?
Also boilers especcially coal fired would need a lot of air. What do you think of that ? How was fresh air distributed and used air expelled ?

===============
The amo tracks (shell handling) of Hansholm and Austratt are well known since they are still there.
Also drawn in 3D (Hanstholm and VARA)

The power generation (generator) and control set up in room (9) would be more or less the same as for apparatus as Hanstholm and Austratt.
Therefore You need a good picture of the walls and the gulleys in the floor.
Thanks,

Wim
www.petromax.nl
3D : http://www.petromax.nl/Hanstholm.html
http://www.petromax.nl/DeBeer.html

wimve
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by wimve » 07 Aug 2018 16:04

moonraker wrote:
07 Aug 2018 15:28
hello Wimne
for info,you can ask Dirk P dimmensions, we all measure with the details,toilets,bulkhead,passage of cable in anton and dora.
Me belfra-team
I know, I know, but when things do not exactly fit, I am stuck with questions.
Questions that often are not or can not be answered.
(No offence !!)
Thanks,

Wim
www.petromax.nl
3D : http://www.petromax.nl/Hanstholm.html
http://www.petromax.nl/DeBeer.html

juestr
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by juestr » 07 Aug 2018 21:51

jopaerya wrote:
07 Aug 2018 15:49
Thanks Jürgen

Your right I put the 7.5cm guns in the other Topic , are you 100% sure all the outer walls
were in A = 3.50 . Because bunkers in heavy coast batterie's build in the same period were
build in B and should be later added with a extra layer of concrete of 1.50 cm . Just like
B. Le Havre , B. Hamburg and B. Marcouf ??

Regards Jos
Yes, I am !

1. Yourself gave us indirectly the first proof, which I found "particularily interesting" and helped me a lot

2. I show in my report 2 images from the right entrance wall with interesting mesurement points (look to the plan). Looking along (I did it in june once more) the outer wall , even under sand, it seems to be straight (sandy slope) from the entrance to the end. That´s what I have drawn on the plan. The wall is conical from 1,50 m at the entrance to about 3,50m at the end.

3. We mesured inside the tubes (room 7) and the horizontal length up to the end is 300 cm. So the wall MUST be thicker

look here from the horizontal end of the tube in vertical direction to the chimney on the roof. Unfortunately this time I had no laser.
Image

Hopefully you understand the importance of my mesurements (I hate it) for completely understanding of the whole functionality.

I am no expert, but I think that these naval turrets were more effectif and considered as more precious than your cited exemples. And these naval turrets don´t function without their "housing", it´s not only protection.
Last edited by juestr on 08 Aug 2018 08:22, edited 1 time in total.

juestr
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by juestr » 07 Aug 2018 21:56

wimve wrote:
07 Aug 2018 16:04
moonraker wrote:
07 Aug 2018 15:28
hello Wimne
for info,you can ask Dirk P dimmensions, we all measure with the details,toilets,bulkhead,passage of cable in anton and dora.
Me belfra-team
I know, I know, but when things do not exactly fit, I am stuck with questions.
Questions that often are not or can not be answered.
(No offence !!)
That is exactly what I said and say all the time - and what takes so much time...............

jopaerya
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by jopaerya » 08 Aug 2018 07:51

Oke Jürgen

Yes I saw your mesurement points on your drawing but most are entrance side and the machine room,
I want to know shure that the other walls were also 3.50 cm . Sounds logic the 3.50 for the gun turret.

On the S 473/S 483 there was at least one iron pipe head on top of the bunker, who knows were that
pipe is gooing inside the bunker ??

Regards Jos

juestr
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by juestr » 08 Aug 2018 10:56

jopaerya wrote:
08 Aug 2018 07:51
Oke Jürgen

........

On the S 473/S 483 there was at least one iron pipe head on top of the bunker, who knows were that
pipe is gooing inside the bunker ??

Regards Jos
From that position left and behind the turret a vertical duct would go directly to the wall on the left side oft the ventilation room (15) and the heating room (20)

juestr
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by juestr » 08 Aug 2018 11:31

wimve wrote:
07 Aug 2018 16:01
I did read your topic.

Toilets:
is there evidence of a septic tank or other sewer connection (outside) ?
......
There is nothing to be seen except the two openings for the toilets in the floor.
In room 5 at both ends are 2 pits in the floor with access to obviously sewer.

How sewerage is treated in similar or comparable artillery bunker like Hanstholm, Austratt ??

juestr
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by juestr » 08 Aug 2018 13:44

wimve wrote:
07 Aug 2018 16:01
I did read your topic.
.......
Engine room (9) floorgulleys are not mentioned in your report.
the following extract of a plan of an unknown author is a very good indication for you. Exact mesurements til now were of minor interest for me.

Image

additionally this photo from Dirk:
download/file.php?id=318567&mode=view

Shaft (14) are there any coal (black remains) visible on the walls ?
No traces at all.
But the lower part in the basement is more than 100 cm under water, the shaft and other walls have been painted white

The amo tracks (shell handling) of Hansholm and Austratt are well known since they are still there.
Also drawn in 3D (Hanstholm and VARA)
In my mind the SHELL handling in Karola is very different from the handling in Austratt because of weight and the number, size and position of the shell stores. I suppose for Karola (like Seydlitz) a similar system as the CARTRIDGE handling in Lindemann, Hanstholm (S498) etc.
This might be well known, but not for me. Under hundreds of (tourist)pictures from Hanstholm, Vara I found only a few not very good and detailed ones and no design drawings.

juestr
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by juestr » 08 Aug 2018 17:31

wimve wrote:
07 Aug 2018 16:01
I did read your topic.

.......
The power generation (generator) and control set up in room (9) would be more or less the same as for apparatus as Hanstholm and Austratt.
Therefore You need a good picture of the walls and the gulleys in the floor.
yes and no !

My approach is different from model-making. I want to know and understand all about

1. the German naval turrets SK/C34, 20,3cm - 38cm
2. the bunker where this 20,3cm turret has been built in
3. all peripheral technical equipment necessary for its functionality

as for 1: I have a lot of docs dealing with these turrets, especially the 20,3cm one
as for 2: see my report
as for 3: here is a big lack of knowledge for me, especially for this bunker equipment

So I hope to find technical information with your contributions and discussions about the installed electro-mechanical equipment in this S473/S483.
(ventilation, cooling, heating, energy, ammo handling ......)

patrick fleuridas
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by patrick fleuridas » 12 Aug 2018 09:36

Hi,

A very very big thanks Jürgen for this job, and of course for Catherine and Jazote.

juestr
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by juestr » 13 Aug 2018 08:06

patrick fleuridas wrote:
12 Aug 2018 09:36
Hi,

A very very big thanks Jürgen for this job, and of course for Catherine and Jazote.
Merci Patrick,
je pensais quand-mème avoir plus de discussions fructueuses pour tout le monde ici sur axis (par rapport au superforum), mais rien.
Enfin peut-etre c´est due avant tout à l´époque des grandes vacances. On verra!
Gruß
Jürgen

AvB
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by AvB » 16 Aug 2018 17:29

Big thanks Jürgen for your thorough report! This is superclass bunker archeology. :)
If my pictures from Örlandet or Vara are of any help? I have more. http://bunkersite.com/locations/norway/ ... ndet-1.php
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juestr
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Re: S473 / S483 combined for 2 x 20,3cm naval gun turret, Batt. Karola (Ars)

Post by juestr » 16 Aug 2018 20:15

AvB wrote:
16 Aug 2018 17:29
Big thanks Jürgen for your thorough report! This is superclass bunker archeology. :)
If my pictures from Örlandet or Vara are of any help? I have more. http://bunkersite.com/locations/norway/ ... ndet-1.php
I already found and studied your phantastic pictures from Austratt (Vara not yet).
When talking about ventilation room 15 of Dora I cited your "similar" picture from Austratt

Image

the machinery at the bottom is of particular interest for me. It looks like a compressor (refrigerator) or pump. As this room was for air-conditioning of the ammo rooms I believe more to a refrigerator. Do you have more infos about this type of machine and/or more detailed pictures ?

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