Question about Petsamo

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Swing
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Question about Petsamo

Post by Swing » 14 Dec 2018 19:19

Finnish Wikipedia (https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/1941):
6. helmikuuta − Suomen Moskovan-lähettiläs J. K. Paasikivi ehdotti Petsamon luovuttamista Neuvostoliitolle...
6th of February - The Finnish Ambassador in Moscow, J. K. Paasikivi, proposed transfer of Petsamo to the Soviet Union...
Does anyone know the details of this proposal?

Mangrove
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Re: Question about Petsamo

Post by Mangrove » 14 Dec 2018 20:03

I don't remember this being discussed during 1941, but Paasikivi mentioned the matter during a meeting with Molotov at Moscow on 27 March 1944. The following is an excerpt from the 1944 minutes of meeting, originally reprinted in Linkomies' memors Vaikea aika.

Paasikivi: (Opens map of the Viipuri Province). I would like to suggest a trade. The north part of Karelia, Viipuri, Saimaa Canal and the industrial region of Vuoksi are vitally important for us, the factories located in the region receive their raw material from Finland. Why would it not be possible to think of a trade also regarding this region? We would be ready to cease the Petsamo region over to you.
Molotov: The Petsamo matter is part of the sixth article, to which we will get back later.
Paasikivi: Why not now? Take Petsamo and fight the Germans there (Molotov and Dekanozov laugh).
Molotov: Now this is something new. In other words, you are ready to cease Petsamo over to us or the Germans? We have not come to that yet. (Raises his voice and repeats three times:) We are not ready to make any concessions regarding the 1940 border. [...]
Paasikivi: I consider that you may exchange Petsamo to Hanko and Northern Karelia.
Molotov: We will not consent to this. Three wars in 25 years is already too much. [...]
Paasikivi: (ottaa esille Viipurin läänin kartan) Ehdottaisin vaihtokauppaa. Pohjoisosa Karjalaa, Viipuri, Saimaan kanava ja Vuoksen teollisuusalue ovat meille elintärkeät, tällä alueella sijaitsevat tehtaat saavat raaka-aineensa Suomesta. Miksei voitaisi ajatella vaihtokauppaa tähänkin alueeseen nähden? Olisimme valmiit luovuttamaan teille Petsamon alueen.
Molotov: Petsamon asia muodostaa 6. kohdan, johon palaamme myöhemmin.
Paasikivi: Miksei nyt heti? Ottakaa Petsamo ja taistelkaa siellä saksalaisten kanssa. (Molotov ja Dekanosov nauravat.)
Molotov: Tämähän on jotakin uutta. Olette toisin sanoen valmiit luovuttamaan Petsamon joko meille tai Saksalle? Emme ole vielä tulleet siihen. (korottaa äänensa ja sanoo kolme kertaa:) 1940 vuoden rajan suhteen emme voi tehdä teille mitään myönnytyksiä. [...]
Paasikivi: Katson, että voitte vaihtaa Petsamon Hankoa ja Pohjois-Karjalaa vastaan.
Molotov: Emme suostu siihen. Kolme sotaa 25 vuodessa on jo liikaa. [...]

Swing
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Re: Question about Petsamo

Post by Swing » 15 Dec 2018 09:46

Mangrove wrote:
14 Dec 2018 20:03
Paasikivi mentioned the matter during a meeting with Molotov at Moscow on 27 March 1944.
No doubt. But someone wrote about 1941...

Mangrove
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Re: Question about Petsamo

Post by Mangrove » 15 Dec 2018 16:30

Swing wrote:
15 Dec 2018 09:46
No doubt. But someone wrote about 1941...
I don't see any references to ceasing Petsamo to the USSR in the published pieces of Paasikivi's January-February 1941 diary pages, although the pieces do not contain all the pages:

14 January 1941
21 January 1941
24 January 1941
12 February 1941
19 February 1941
4 March 1941

Swing
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Re: Question about Petsamo

Post by Swing » 15 Dec 2018 18:15

I checked "Toimintani Moskovassa ja Suomessa 1939-41" (My activity in Moscow anf Finland 1939-1941) by Paasikivi. There is no related information too. Wikipedia's fake?

Other sourses:

Suomen tuolloinen Moskovan-suurlähettiläs ehdottaa alueen luovuttamista Neuvostoliitolle. - from
https://sotaveteraanit.fi/2018/06/25/ja ... vi-toteen/

Helmikuussa 1941 J.K. Paasikivi ehdotti Petsamon luovuttamista Nl:lle muita alueita vastaan. - from
https://www.ts.fi/aihe/1074038271/19351 ... senteralla

Someone launched this information ...

Seppo Koivisto
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Re: Question about Petsamo

Post by Seppo Koivisto » 17 Dec 2018 11:40

Probably Paasikivi didn't want it to be remembered, because he was not well informed of the development in Finland and later resigned as the result of it. I think this quote is from the book Antti Hietalahti: Talvisodan salainen strategia – nikkelillä Saksan rinnalle.
Mutta Molotov jatkoi lähettiläs Paasikiven painostamista NI-asiassa ja lähettiläs Paasikivi ei tiennyt Saksan epämääräisistä tukilupauksista Moskovassa mitään ja lähettiläs Paasikivi tarkasteli Ni-asiaa vain Moskovasta käsin muodostamastaan näkökulmasta ja puutteellisten tietojen varassa ja ajautui osin virheellisiin johtopäätöksiin.
Aluevaihtoehdotus NL:lle 6.2.1941, "Petsamon luovuttaminen NL:lle muualta saatavaa aluekorvausta vastaan."

Suomen Ulkoministeriöltä 10.2.1941 sähke lähettiläs Paasikivelle: Pysykää Ni-asiassa täältä ( H:gistä ) annettujen ohjeiden puitteissa. Paasikivi raivostui ja erosi lähettilään paikalta 20.2.1941 ja tuli H:kiin Tukholman kautta 4.3.1941.
https://agricolaverkko.fi/keskustelu/vi ... 694#p40681

Mangrove
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Re: Question about Petsamo

Post by Mangrove » 17 Dec 2018 14:55

There is a reference to the date on an article by Mauno Jokipii which was published on Helsingin Sanomat on 26 February 1977. The article is about the new biography of Mannerheim by Stig Jägerskiöld.

Swing
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Re: Question about Petsamo

Post by Swing » 17 Dec 2018 18:05

Thank you for information, Seppo and Mangrove Jokipii is absolutely heavyweight in history. Hopefully that he used a credible source.

Mangrove
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Re: Question about Petsamo

Post by Mangrove » 20 Dec 2018 20:32

On his book Finland, Germany, and the Soviet Union: The Petsamo Dispute (translated to Finnish as "Nikkelidiplomatiaa Petsamossa 1940-1941"), Hans Peter Krosby has following references for the Paasikivi Petsamo exchange:

- Paasikivi, Minnen 1940-41 (Probably "J. K. Paasikivis Minnen. 2, Mellankrigstiden - Som Sändebud i Moskva (1940-1941)")
- Blücher, Telegram N:o 79 to Foreign Office, 6 February 1941. 6440 / H066877-78.
- Blücher, Telegram N:o 81 to Foreign Office, 8 February 1941. 6440 / H066870-74.
- Van Scherpenberg, Memo, Zu Ha.Pol.VI 458, 8 February 1941. 2111H/456819.
- Weizsäcker, Memo, St.S.Nr 98, 8 February 1941. B19/B004001.

Swing
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Re: Question about Petsamo

Post by Swing » 21 Dec 2018 11:40

A lot of thanks! Just ordered in the library...

knokkelmann1
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Re: Question about Petsamo

Post by knokkelmann1 » 24 Dec 2018 06:19

any info on what happened to the Petsamo population? Did those people get interned into the SU? or perhaps had a chance to move deeper into the Finnish territory? what was the population in the region? were these people Saami/Finnish or perhaps of Russsian origin?

Mangrove
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Re: Question about Petsamo

Post by Mangrove » 24 Dec 2018 08:11

knokkelmann1 wrote:
24 Dec 2018 06:19
what was the population in the region? were these people Saami/Finnish or perhaps of Russsian origin?
According to Statistics Finland's publication Luovutettujen ja vuokrattujen alueiden väkiluku vuosina 1940 ja 1945, there were 5142 persons living in Petsamo on 31 December 1940 and 5257 on 1 January 1945. The latter date is still technically correct as if I remember correctly, the former municipalities in Petsamo were not officially dissolved until 1947.

Again according to Statistics Finland, there were 2113 persons speaking any of the Saami languages as their first language in Oulu Province in 1930. Out of these, probably only a few hundred Skolt Saami were in Petsamo region in 1930. In Oulu Province, there were 235 persons speaking Russian as their first language in 1930.
knokkelmann1 wrote:
24 Dec 2018 06:19
any info on what happened to the Petsamo population? Did those people get interned into the SU? or perhaps had a chance to move deeper into the Finnish territory?
After the Winter War, only Kalastajasaarento / Rybachy Peninsula was ceased to the Soviet Union. I suppose the very few people living there were evacuated to other parts of Petsamo. After the Continuation War, most of the Finnish population in Petsamo was resettled into the municipality of Tervola (village of Varejoki) near the Finnish-Swedish border in West Lapland. Skolt Saami population was resettled in the municipality of Inari in the village of Sevettijärvi near the new Finland-Russia border.

Seppo Jyrkinen
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Re: Question about Petsamo

Post by Seppo Jyrkinen » 26 Dec 2018 17:18

Maria Lähteenmäki has described those discussions about Petsamo (February 1941 and after) in her book "Väinö Voionmaa", pages 340-345. After Lähteenmäki Finland was willing to accept a nickel-company, where soviets had had 50% of shears.

Her sources are Finland's Moscow embassy's messages to Helsinki 6.2.1941 - 10.5.1941 and also "Suomen sinivalkoinen kirja II".
A word irony is baked into the word history.

Mangrove
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Re: Question about Petsamo

Post by Mangrove » 26 Dec 2018 17:42

Seppo Jyrkinen wrote:
26 Dec 2018 17:18
"Suomen sinivalkoinen kirja II"
Available in English as "Finland Reveals Her Secret Documents on Soviet Policy - March 1940 - June 1941" (Archive.org)

knokkelmann1
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Re: Question about Petsamo

Post by knokkelmann1 » 27 Dec 2018 01:21

Seppo Jyrkinen wrote:
26 Dec 2018 17:18
Maria Lähteenmäki has described those discussions about Petsamo (February 1941 and after) in her book "Väinö Voionmaa", pages 340-345. After Lähteenmäki Finland was willing to accept a nickel-company, where soviets had had 50% of shears.

Her sources are Finland's Moscow embassy's messages to Helsinki 6.2.1941 - 10.5.1941 and also "Suomen sinivalkoinen kirja II".
wasn't the company British or Canadian btw? hence 50% lest they get upset with the takeover

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