Fall Gelb and Mechelen Incident.

Discussions on High Command, strategy and the Armed Forces (Wehrmacht) in general.
User avatar
Stugbit
Member
Posts: 246
Joined: 01 Sep 2013 18:26
Location: Goiânia

Re: Fall Gelb and Mechelen Incident.

Post by Stugbit » 17 Feb 2019 18:18

Sheldrake wrote:
17 Feb 2019 11:28
Stugbit wrote:
16 Feb 2019 23:53
Of course I need, Sheldrake. But the kindle version alone costs like 80 of the money we have here. It`s a bit harsh for the moment. I`m still aiming for the other book you recommended me before. But you`re a good fellow, couldn`t you just make me a very little, small, tiny bit of summ on the matter?
HIstography here - summary of arguments for free https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historiog ... _of_France

According to Mungo Melvin Manstein developed an early variant of the plan. In Koblenz he asked Guderian about the viability of the plan for panzer forces.

HJitl;er did raise the matter of the plan in the 17 (?) Feb meeting with Manstein and others. Halder did not like Manstein and probably cpould not bring himself to approve it was long as Manstein was anywhere near.
Many thanks once again, Sheldrake!

I use wikipedia a lot but I didn`t know about this page. I went to the "battle of France" page, it is more shallow the information they have there.

This guy, Tooze, said things very similar to what I thought. For him, both the Mechelen and Manstein had an impact.

Ljahw says it`is a myth, but from what I have read in this page, I don`t know if this is a sure thing, honestly.

Best regards!

MarkN
Member
Posts: 2406
Joined: 12 Jan 2015 13:34
Location: On the continent

Re: Fall Gelb and Mechelen Incident.

Post by MarkN » 17 Feb 2019 19:35

Stugbit wrote:
16 Feb 2019 23:53
Of course I need, Sheldrake. But the kindle version alone costs like 80 of the money we have here. It`s a bit harsh for the moment. I`m still aiming for the other book you recommended me before. But you`re a good fellow, couldn`t you just make me a very little, small, tiny bit of summ on the matter?
Oh dear lord..... Not another one!!!!

You won't learn anything about history by expecting somebody else to buy books, or to spend their time and money researching, and then give you a summary on the internet.

Do ypu really think other people want to finance your hobby and spend their precious time to make your learning easy?

User avatar
Stugbit
Member
Posts: 246
Joined: 01 Sep 2013 18:26
Location: Goiânia

Re: Fall Gelb and Mechelen Incident.

Post by Stugbit » 17 Feb 2019 20:55

MarkN wrote:
17 Feb 2019 19:35
Stugbit wrote:
16 Feb 2019 23:53
Of course I need, Sheldrake. But the kindle version alone costs like 80 of the money we have here. It`s a bit harsh for the moment. I`m still aiming for the other book you recommended me before. But you`re a good fellow, couldn`t you just make me a very little, small, tiny bit of summ on the matter?
Oh dear lord..... Not another one!!!!

You won't learn anything about history by expecting somebody else to buy books, or to spend their time and money researching, and then give you a summary on the internet.

Do ypu really think other people want to finance your hobby and spend their precious time to make your learning easy?
WHAT?! What you're talking about?? Please tell me where I asked for him to buy me a book?? I can afford myself my books, YOU UNDERSTAND, FELLOW?

I asked for a small summ, there's no problem with that at all. And he gave me. I did not know about the especific wiki page he showed me.
I don't see where there's a problem with people helping others to understand things. If I had the knowledge I would be PLEASED to help someone else.
There's plenty of people explaining things to others on YouTube, for instance. Many Western People don't know what the word solidarity and empathy means.

More respect, kid. You're not talking to your mother here.

ljadw
Member
Posts: 9673
Joined: 13 Jul 2009 17:50

Re: Fall Gelb and Mechelen Incident.

Post by ljadw » 18 Feb 2019 16:31

Stugbit wrote:
17 Feb 2019 18:18
Sheldrake wrote:
17 Feb 2019 11:28
Stugbit wrote:
16 Feb 2019 23:53
Of course I need, Sheldrake. But the kindle version alone costs like 80 of the money we have here. It`s a bit harsh for the moment. I`m still aiming for the other book you recommended me before. But you`re a good fellow, couldn`t you just make me a very little, small, tiny bit of summ on the matter?
HIstography here - summary of arguments for free https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historiog ... _of_France

According to Mungo Melvin Manstein developed an early variant of the plan. In Koblenz he asked Guderian about the viability of the plan for panzer forces.

HJitl;er did raise the matter of the plan in the 17 (?) Feb meeting with Manstein and others. Halder did not like Manstein and probably cpould not bring himself to approve it was long as Manstein was anywhere near.
Many thanks once again, Sheldrake!

I use wikipedia a lot but I didn`t know about this page. I went to the "battle of France" page, it is more shallow the information they have there.

This guy, Tooze, said things very similar to what I thought. For him, both the Mechelen and Manstein had an impact.

Ljahw says it`is a myth, but from what I have read in this page, I don`t know if this is a sure thing, honestly.

Best regards!
The LW major,whose role in the planning of the attack was insignifiant, had only a less than insignifiant knowledge of German Schwerpunkt, and he succeeded into burning most of his papers .
The Blitzkrieg Legend P 63 : "Since then,many history books mistakenly reported that this event caused an abrupt and basic change in the German operations plan,which presumably had now been revealed to the enemy .Paradoxicallly,however,the Mechelen incident did not in the end lead to the exposure of the German operational intentions but rather those of the Allies ........"
I stand to what I said : the importance of the Mechelen incident has been inflated by journalists,looking for sensation and headlines .When Hitler heard from the incident, he did NOT order to postpone the offensive, but ordered to start the offensive as soon it was possible . But, the bad weather prevented this and the attack was postponed to the spring .

Carl Schwamberger
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 6809
Joined: 02 Sep 2006 20:31
Location: USA

Re: Fall Gelb and Mechelen Incident.

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 01 Mar 2019 04:32

ljadw wrote:
17 Feb 2019 12:42
Stugbit wrote:
28 Jan 2019 01:22
Hello, Guys, how are you?

I have a few questions for you here: Was the initial German strategy for the attack on the Allied really and only a Schlieffen-like plan?
How much the Mechelen Incident played a role in the upcoming invasion of Belgium and France? Were the Germans thinking about a plan B before this?
Was the German victory over the Allies in 1940 a matter of superior understanding of tactics and the military situation of the time overall or can we say that luck have got the Germans the possibility of finding a good spot for an attack almost by chance?
And having the Mechelen incident not happened, in what extent could a German offensive against the Allied succeed?

Best Regards.
The influence of the Mechelen incident was mostly mythical, as the LW officer had only a very small knowledge of the German plan,and as most of his documents were destroyed .
Further more the documents concerned only schedules and targets of the air forces attacks. While the general outline could be derived from that the docs had very little directly about the ground forces deployment.

Carl Schwamberger
Host - Allied sections
Posts: 6809
Joined: 02 Sep 2006 20:31
Location: USA

Re: Fall Gelb and Mechelen Incident.

Post by Carl Schwamberger » 01 Mar 2019 05:12

Sheldrake wrote:
16 Feb 2019 10:27
...

I suspect I will get a flea in my ear as Mungo picked Sedan as the last stand because both Manstein and Guderian had served there in 1918. M<y prediction is that you will be invited to read his book.....
Have read Mays analysis of the development of the German plans. 'Strange Victory'. Mays did not focus much on personalities but pretty much stuck to the influence of doctrine, the German use of map and field exercises to critically test their plans, and evidence for specific events in the development. One point Mays touched on is the claim Guderian critiqued Mansteins original plan in terms of armored units & explained the current theory to Manstein. This appears to have originated with Guderian & it appears Manstein never mentioned this meeting in November 1939 in his post war accounts. Guderian, backed up by Kliest was influential in developing how the 'Panzer Group' of nine mobile divisions would operate in the final March 1940 version. The pair, along with the other two Pz Corps commanders spent the better part of four months working out the gritty details of how massed mobile formations would attack, north or south of Liege in Belgium.

Mays also reiterates the point, made by others who have actually read the German documents like Horne or Doughty, that there were two plans prepared for the operation. One was to head for the Channel coast, the other Paris. As late as the 14th May as the bridgeheads across the Meuse River were being consolidated Guderian claims the question was finally settled & the order came to attack to the Channel.

User avatar
dgfred
Member
Posts: 159
Joined: 31 Jan 2008 16:56
Location: N.C., USA

Re: Fall Gelb and Mechelen Incident.

Post by dgfred » 06 Mar 2019 18:17

Thanks Carl... good to see/hear ya.

Return to “German Strategy & General German Military Discussion”