Allied units Implicated in War Crimes

Discussions on the Holocaust and 20th Century War Crimes. Note that Holocaust denial is not allowed. Hosted by David Thompson.
User avatar
Marcus
Member
Posts: 33929
Joined: 08 Mar 2002 22:35
Location: Europe

Allied units Implicated in War Crimes

Post by Marcus » 08 Jun 2003 13:14

The two below quotes detailing warcrimes committed against soldiers of the 17. SS-Panzergrenadier-Division Götz von Berlichingen are from "Iron Fist: A combat history of the 17. SS Panzergrenadier Division 'Gotz von Berlichingen'" by Antonio J. Munoz.

Ironically, Nuremberg fell on Hitler's birthday (the 20th). About two hundred SS grenadiers belonging to the I Battalion, 38th SS Regiment, were eventually captured by the 42nd Infantry Division. The fate of these men had been shrouded in mystery for many years. Eyewitnesses to what happened to these men were not forthcoming. Eventually, shortly after the war, some citizens of that city directed Red Cross officials to what turned out to be a mass grave which yielded two hundred bodies, all in Waffen-SS uniforms. The grave was located just west of the city. Nothing was done to identify these men or how they came to be there until 1976, when the remains of one of the corpses was positively identified as that of SS-Hauptsturmführer Kukula, the commander of I Battalion, 38th SS Panzer Grenadier Regiment. Further autopsies on the other bodies soon followed, showing that many of the men in that grave had been beated to death this blunt instruments (possibly rifle butts). Most had been shot at very close range, suggesting that a massacre had taken place.

Unconfired reports state that an additional seventeen members of the "Götz von Berlichingen" Division were shot at Eberstettin after they had surrendered. The presence of the Dachau camp in the vicinity might have had something to do with this massacre


/Marcus

User avatar
Arminiusder Cherusker1
Member
Posts: 143
Joined: 14 Feb 2003 14:01
Location: München/Bayern

Warcrimes

Post by Arminiusder Cherusker1 » 10 Jun 2003 07:06

Marcus,

the name of the village is Eberstetten

Arminius

JLEES
Member
Posts: 1970
Joined: 26 Apr 2002 04:01
Location: Michigan, USA

War Crimes

Post by JLEES » 13 Jun 2003 22:22

Hello,
There is little question that the Allies also at times committed war crimes too. The Soviets committed a large number during the war, the French in 1944/45, British and US also. Allied soldiers just like German, Italian and Japanese troops committed some terrible acts of war. I remember as a kid by uncle telling me a story about how the men in his unit shot some German POWs near the end of the war in 1945. Based upon his story, Uncle Jim entered a German town around March of 1945, took some sniper fire and one of his officers was killed. The unit then searched the town and found some German soldiers hiding and searched them. Based on their weapons and condition none of them were the sniper, but due to the hostility of losing a well liked officer someone made the decision to shoot them and WWII moved on. Nevertheless, as terrible as this act was, we're not breaking new historic ground by pointing crimes like this one out, they did happen, it was war and they were not state policy. Meanwhile, although not stated by anyone here, these terrible acts can not be compared on an equal level to the Holocaust and I'm hoping no one is seriously trying to infer that with this posting. Although wrong and crimes against the rules of war, the magnide between what the Western Allies did and the Holocaust are worlds apart.
James

POW
Banned
Posts: 419
Joined: 22 Mar 2002 11:35
Location: Germany

Post by POW » 21 Jun 2003 17:43

At 30 May 1942 Arthur Harris entered the HQ in High Wycombe. Magnus Spence, Chief meteorologist of the Royal Air force, presented the newest forecast. The prognoses were as bad as the days before: Many clouds and storm in England and fog at most airbases. The same weather conditions in Germany. Only in the northwest some gaps in the clouds and at the Ruhr area break-up of cloud cover.... That forecast decided Germans future and the lot of a city with more than 770.000 people. Harris took the decision: "Tonight Operation Millennium!" At 25 February 1942 Harris got the order that the main target is to demoralise the German civilians, especially the laborer and the weather forecast made the decision fell on Cologne.

Lord Cherwell think the world of Harris and as result also Churchill trusted in his abilities. Finally Harris became a air marshal and the commander of the bombers. Lord Cherwell was convinced the war could be won by destroying the German cities and demoralize the population. But the theory had to be proved and so Harris commanded at 28 March 1942 234 bomber with 300 tons of high explosive and incendiary bombs to Lübeck. The high explosives should open the houses for the incendiaries and keep the fireman in their air-raid shelters. The attack was a wonderful success. Recon photos proved that the remaining of Lübeck's famous downtown were smoking ruins only. The destructions were much larger than the RAF achieved until yet. This test should follow the "dress rehearsal" to convince all critics that it is possible to beat the Third Reich without an invasion.

1000 bomber should attack one city. Cologne was bombed like no city before. In the night of the 30 May 1942 following status signal reached the headquarter of air-raid protection in the Krebsgasse by phone: "...incendiary bombs...", "...incendiary bombs...", "...incendiary bombs...". It was burning around the cathedral, in Bayenthal, Klettenberg, Sülz, Deutz, Kalk and Mühlheim because the attack was aimed to the entire city and not to a single target only. The Gürzenich is in ruins which was the most beautiful hall builded in the 15'th century to greet emperor's and kings, the Hansesaal builded in 1350-70 or St. Martin which was one of the most overwhelming Romanic buildings arose in the 12'th century. St. Gereon was even more than 600 years old when a British radio operator noticed: We still can see the fire at the Dutch coast.

Now Harris could prove without any doubts: 70 attacks were flown on targets in cologne with 2000 planes in total. But they caused only 25 percent of the damage of this 1000-bomber-attack. Massive attacks are much more effective than a lot of little ones. Now Harris was "da man" and the total bombing war became reality. A war claimed by Lord Cherwell since 20 years.

1945 Germany looked like a crater landscape from a different planet. Dozens of German cities could be used as quarry only. Buildings like in Cologne which needed centuries to grow are lost. But nothing happened to the Ford-factories in Cologne, either little damage had the factory in Cologne-Deutz and all over it was the same. The German industry produced at the end of the war more armament than in 1938. The RAF flew a distance like 30 times to the moon and their missions send more than a half million civilians into the grave. About 89.000 children had to die but from military view this mass murder was senseless and one of the biggest war crimes during WW2.

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23059
Joined: 20 Jul 2002 19:52
Location: USA

Post by David Thompson » 28 Jun 2003 17:36

Deterance
New Member



Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 66
Location: USA
Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2003 5:31 am

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deterance posted the following in the "What war crimes did the allies admit to" thread at
viewtopic.php?t=25237

"I regards to small scale allied war crimes......

Charles Whiting in Siegfried, The Nazis last Stand....

cites a Cpt. MacDonald, 2nd infantry stated that a German POW was shot by men in his unit with out his knowledge.

Donald Burgett, 101 Airborne combat infantry veteran in Seven Roads to Hell cites an example of another trooper killing a prisoner he (Burgett) took in Bastogne area. Burgett then assaulted the perpetrator.

Also make reference to men of glider regiment taking "no German prisoners" in ambush after German (SS ?) soldiers single out and kill wounded US paratroopers in captured US hospital"
Last edited by David Thompson on 06 Feb 2004 00:40, edited 1 time in total.

POW
Banned
Posts: 419
Joined: 22 Mar 2002 11:35
Location: Germany

Post by POW » 28 Jun 2003 20:04

David Thompson wrote:Deterance
New Member



Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 66
Location: USA
Posted: Fri Jun 27, 2003 5:31 am

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deterance posted the following in the "What war crimes did the allies admit to" thread at
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=25237

"I regards to small scale allied war crimes......

Charles Whiting in Siegfried, The Nazis last Stand....

cites a Cpt. MacDonald, 2nd infantry stated that a German POW was shot by men in his unit with out his knowledge.

Donald Burgett, 101 Airborne combat infantry veteran in Seven Roads to Hell cites an example of another trooper killing a prisoner he (Burgett) took in Bastogne area. Burgett then assaulted the perpetrator.

Also make reference to men of glider regiment taking "no German prisoners" in ambush after German (SS ?) soldiers single out and kill wounded US paratroopers in captured US hospital"

Actions of single soldiers. I could continue this list by adding one warcrime each day for the rest of this year. All I would cause is to be disparaged by calling me NAZI apologizer or similar.

User avatar
Marcus
Member
Posts: 33929
Joined: 08 Mar 2002 22:35
Location: Europe

Post by Marcus » 28 Jun 2003 20:09

POW,

These sticky threads are for posting examples for warcrimes (preferably with sources), not for the regular discussions.

/Marcus

David Thompson
Forum Staff
Posts: 23059
Joined: 20 Jul 2002 19:52
Location: USA

Post by David Thompson » 28 Jun 2003 21:12

Penn44 wrote:

"Penn44
New Member



Joined: 26 Jun 2003
Posts: 1
Location: USA
Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2003 9:07 pm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. In Sicily, July 1943, an American Army captain and sergeant were courts martialed for executing 30-35 German POWs. The two were given relatively light sentences of only a few years imprisonment. According to the source I read, the captain made reference to inflammatory sppeches made by Patton to his unit, and he therefore thought the killings were in accordance to Patton's speech. I think Patton had to respond in writing to the court (a disposition?).

I am sorry, I can not cite the source at the moment, I do not have my notes ready available.

2. During the Battle of the Bulge, two American regimental commanders issued orders in writing that no SS prisoners were to be taken. Wiengarten, in his book, The Malmedy Massacre, gives one of the reigments. The second regiment, I have never learned it's number.

The American journalist, Eric Severide (spelling?) once commented he stopped reporting German attrocities after he witnessed an American soldier killed two German POWs because he didn't want to walk them back to the POW collection point. I think this is quoted in Citizen Soldiers.

The killing of small numbers of POWs is relatively common place on the battlefield (the heat of battle justification/rationalization). What is more ominious, is when it becomes command-directed or even standing operating procedure (SOP) for that unit."

User avatar
Gerry
Member
Posts: 27
Joined: 15 Jun 2003 20:31
Location: Germany

Post by Gerry » 06 Jul 2003 10:52

David Thompson wrote:2. During the Battle of the Bulge, two American regimental commanders issued orders in writing that no SS prisoners were to be taken. Wiengarten, in his book, The Malmedy Massacre, gives one of the reigments. The second regiment, I have never learned it's number.

This happend before during the invasion where many SS-Units were fighting.
It also happened in other countries, in Finland/Norway for example, where
the SS-Gebirgsdivison Nord fought against the russian. Members of SS-Units
mostly were not taken prisoners, but shot immediately.
This actually had an effect - unwanted by their opponents - that the soldiers
of these units often fought to the last man standing, like the SS-Division "Hilterjugend" in the Normany Invasion.

User avatar
stg 44
Member
Posts: 2974
Joined: 03 Dec 2002 01:42
Location: illinois

Post by stg 44 » 09 Jul 2003 23:37

there was a website about allied warcrimes during world war 2 that had several incidents. The website was one of a series that is actually very good and accurate and goes by the name of sparticus or something and was made by a british school teacher. If anyone could find the site I would appreciate it. Anyway, an american reporter was filming the fighting in munich and talked about the waffen ss resistance surrendering to Patton's forces which then promptly lined them up and shot them. I believe that the reason was that they had inflicted large amounts of casualties and then surrendered before the americans could do likewise. He filmed everything and sent the footage in to be developed, but was told that it was damaged and couldn't be shown. The reporter said he expected as much. No numbers were given as to those slaughtered so if anyone has any information about this I would appreciate it.

User avatar
Beau sabreur
Member
Posts: 159
Joined: 11 Mar 2003 20:46
Location: The Americas

Post by Beau sabreur » 16 Jul 2003 23:23

stg 44 wrote:there was a website about allied warcrimes during world war 2 that had several incidents. The website was one of a series that is actually very good and accurate and goes by the name of sparticus or something and was made by a british school teacher. If anyone could find the site I would appreciate it. Anyway, an american reporter was filming the fighting in munich and talked about the waffen ss resistance surrendering to Patton's forces which then promptly lined them up and shot them. I believe that the reason was that they had inflicted large amounts of casualties and then surrendered before the americans could do likewise. He filmed everything and sent the footage in to be developed, but was told that it was damaged and couldn't be shown. The reporter said he expected as much. No numbers were given as to those slaughtered so if anyone has any information about this I would appreciate it.


War is tragedy. It brings the best (courage, self-sacrifice, honour), and the worst (atrocities of all kinds) in men. Allies troops commited horrible atrocities, as well as the Germans did. The tragedy with the latter is that, while most atrocities were commited by special political units, the regular wehrmacht or waffen SS soldiers many times paid for them, becoming victims of atrocities.
As history is written by the victors, we will have to wait 50 or even 100 years to read a balanced account. Many of us know a lot about what really happened, but most people learn history from the movies.
Cheers!

Luca
Member
Posts: 916
Joined: 21 Jul 2002 11:58
Location: Italia

Post by Luca » 29 Jul 2003 10:53

Beau sabreur wrote:War is tragedy. It brings the best (courage, self-sacrifice, honour), and the worst (atrocities of all kinds) in men. Allies troops commited horrible atrocities, as well as the Germans did. The tragedy with the latter is that, while most atrocities were commited by special political units, the regular wehrmacht or waffen SS soldiers many times paid for them, becoming victims of atrocities.
As history is written by the victors, we will have to wait 50 or even 100 years to read a balanced account. Many of us know a lot about what really happened, but most people learn history from the movies.
Cheers!

Thank You very much!
Luca

User avatar
stevezz1
Member
Posts: 366
Joined: 11 May 2003 19:31
Location: ENGLAND/SOUTH EAST

allied war crimes

Post by stevezz1 » 28 Sep 2003 16:48

According to Kurt Meyer's book, "Grenadiers", captured Canadian officers
were found to be carrying written orders not to take any German prisoners during the Normandy offensive, as prisoners would slow the allied advance.......

This is an excellent book......a "must read".

regards....steve

User avatar
Juha Hujanen
Financial supporter
Posts: 2196
Joined: 20 Mar 2002 11:32
Location: Suur-Savo,Finland

Post by Juha Hujanen » 26 Oct 2003 17:01

Warcrime against 116.Panzer Division by US 95.Infantry Division in Budberg 8th April 45.Story told by 17-year old Friedrich Schmidthausen from 116.Panzer:

In early morning hours on 8 April,during an American surprise attack,we were taken prisoner.Besides me,there were 7 members of the 116th Panzer Division,including the already severy wounted Hauptmann Gerling (CO of I/156 Pz.Gren.Rgt).
A few minutes after we were captured,additional American soldiers brought another 6 prisoners from a street not far away from the Borg house.Shortly after the arrival of this group,we had to stand against a wall,facing it.At almost the same moment,shots were fired out of some windows of the Borg house.
Shots by the Americans and the screams of woman and children now intermingled in the ensuing chaos.I could not observe exactly what was happening,since we were hindered by the American MP's.
After the skirmish was over,we were taken into the house and kept under heavy guard.In the meantime,the American soldiers killed in the early morning battle were placed under our window.We were then forced to look at the dead.After an infantry Liutenant from our group had been interrogated,we were informed at 1030 hours that we would be shot towards 1830 hours in the evening.

In the course of the afternoon,the 7 youngest of us were picked out to be shot ahead of the others.However this plan was dropped after the insistance of the infantry Liutenant and our protests.Towards 1800 hours,the Americans took us to their command post.We carried the seriously wounted Hauptmann Gerling on an unhinged door.
At command post,a few American officers questioned us again about the events.The correct response to questions was in part impossible,because we did not understand them.During the march through Budberg,the commanding officer gave orders to line us up and to fire.

From 14 of us,3 were wounded but stayed alive.These were an elderly Volksturm man,an officer caded and me.I would also like to mention that the Americans used explosive ammunition for the executions.2 comrades who fled into nearby barn were recaptured the following day.I cannot give any information about their wherebouts.
At the dusk on the same day,the fallen comrades were taken away by truck.I myself was hit 7 times and with the help of a Russian and a German girl,i got to a field hospital in the afternoon of 10 April.


Source:Heinz Günther Guderian-From Normandy to the Ruhr.With the 116th Panzer Division in World War II. Pages452-453

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11342
Joined: 11 Sep 2002 20:02
Location: Mylsä

Post by Juha Tompuri » 12 Nov 2003 11:10

How well known/reliable (atleast the crimes against Finnish civilians, committed by the Soviet "partisans", at this book are quite correct documented) this 1953 printed book is?

Regards, Juha
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

Return to “Holocaust & 20th Century War Crimes”