Panther with Panzer IV Turret
Panther with Panzer IV Turret
I am new in this forum.I don`t speak english well but I will try it.
I search information about the Panther with Panzer IV Turret
I don´t have much more information on this particular vehicle, which served as a command tank of schwere Heeres Panzerjager Abteilung 653 on the Eastern Front in early/mid of 1944
I searched on Internet but I didn`t find anything about this type of panther.
Thanks in advance and sorry for my english!!
I search information about the Panther with Panzer IV Turret
I don´t have much more information on this particular vehicle, which served as a command tank of schwere Heeres Panzerjager Abteilung 653 on the Eastern Front in early/mid of 1944
I searched on Internet but I didn`t find anything about this type of panther.
Thanks in advance and sorry for my english!!
Hi liki welcome to the forum
I was surprised to read of your Panther with a Panzer IV turret. As far as I was aware there was no such vehicle. There was a Panther command vehicle - the Panzerbefehlswagen mit 7.5cm KwK42 L/70.
There seems no reason to try to fit a Panzer IV turret to a Panther. Fitting a less well armed less well armoured turret when command versions of the Panther were available seems very strange. I do not know if the PanzerIV turret even would fit a Panther turret ring.
schwere Heeres Panzerjager Abteilung 653 did have one unusual command vehicle namely the Panzerbefehlswagen VI(P). This was the only completed Tiger(P) to see combat service. It was chassis number 150013 and was used by schwere Heeres Panzerjager Abteilung 653's commander, Hauptmann Grillenberg, on the Eastern Front in early/mid of 1944. It carried the turret number 003
The Tiger (P) was the Porsche design for the Tiger, the Panzerkampfwagen VI Tiger (P) VK4501(P) / Porsche Typ 101. see
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/tigerp.htm
Given the apparent lack of any reference to a Panther with a Panzer IV turret either on the internet or in the standard texts, I would suggest that this Tiger (P) might be the vehicle you have seen reference to. The dates of its use certainly match the ones you give.
If you could provide the quote where the Panther with Panzer IV turret is mentioned perhaps this could be resolved.
Hope this helped
I was surprised to read of your Panther with a Panzer IV turret. As far as I was aware there was no such vehicle. There was a Panther command vehicle - the Panzerbefehlswagen mit 7.5cm KwK42 L/70.
There seems no reason to try to fit a Panzer IV turret to a Panther. Fitting a less well armed less well armoured turret when command versions of the Panther were available seems very strange. I do not know if the PanzerIV turret even would fit a Panther turret ring.
schwere Heeres Panzerjager Abteilung 653 did have one unusual command vehicle namely the Panzerbefehlswagen VI(P). This was the only completed Tiger(P) to see combat service. It was chassis number 150013 and was used by schwere Heeres Panzerjager Abteilung 653's commander, Hauptmann Grillenberg, on the Eastern Front in early/mid of 1944. It carried the turret number 003
The Tiger (P) was the Porsche design for the Tiger, the Panzerkampfwagen VI Tiger (P) VK4501(P) / Porsche Typ 101. see
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/tigerp.htm
Given the apparent lack of any reference to a Panther with a Panzer IV turret either on the internet or in the standard texts, I would suggest that this Tiger (P) might be the vehicle you have seen reference to. The dates of its use certainly match the ones you give.
If you could provide the quote where the Panther with Panzer IV turret is mentioned perhaps this could be resolved.
Hope this helped
Panther with Panzer IV turret
"If you could provide the quote where the Panther with Panzer IV turret is mentioned perhaps this could be"
I send you the unique adress on internet where I have seen the panther whih panzer iv turret
http://resolved.members.tripod.com/~fin ... nthp4.html
I send you the unique adress on internet where I have seen the panther whih panzer iv turret
http://resolved.members.tripod.com/~fin ... nthp4.html
- Attachments
-
- panth4t.jpeg (24.27 KiB) Viewed 14030 times
-
- panth4t.jpeg (24.27 KiB) Viewed 14031 times
- davethelight
- Member
- Posts: 1691
- Joined: 21 Dec 2002, 08:52
- Location: Australia
Curious!!
I wonder what it was used for, surely it would have been inferior as a fighting vehicle to the PkzfwV.
I wonder what it was used for, surely it would have been inferior as a fighting vehicle to the PkzfwV.
Last edited by davethelight on 12 Jun 2003, 13:27, edited 1 time in total.
Panther with PIV-Turret
Hi
you can find some more info on http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz4.htm#panther
according to different sources (net and SteelMasters-magazine)
which all agree with this, it was used as a command vehicle in this unit.
there are differences according the turret, some state that it was
bolted in a fixed position, others say it was fully useable
sorry for my bad english
HTH
MadderCat
you can find some more info on http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz4.htm#panther
according to different sources (net and SteelMasters-magazine)
which all agree with this, it was used as a command vehicle in this unit.
there are differences according the turret, some state that it was
bolted in a fixed position, others say it was fully useable
sorry for my bad english
HTH
MadderCat
Many thanks MadderCat and liki for the pics and links. I stand corrected it is indeed a Panther with a Pz IV turret.
Such a curious vehicle, especially if the turret was bolted in a fixed position. As the turret was designed to traverse I presume the gun mounting had no lateral traverse at all. To be usable the entire vehicle would have to be aimed at the target... hardly an easy, swift or accurate procedure.
Unless the turret of the to be converted Panther had been destroyed, the use of a Bergepanther chassis would make more sense. The turret would have provided space for the use as a command vehicle. If no or virtually no ammunition was carried then there would be space for extra radios and perhaps map storage etc.
Another vehicle to be added to the list ofone-offs or very rare coversions.
More please!!!!
Such a curious vehicle, especially if the turret was bolted in a fixed position. As the turret was designed to traverse I presume the gun mounting had no lateral traverse at all. To be usable the entire vehicle would have to be aimed at the target... hardly an easy, swift or accurate procedure.
Unless the turret of the to be converted Panther had been destroyed, the use of a Bergepanther chassis would make more sense. The turret would have provided space for the use as a command vehicle. If no or virtually no ammunition was carried then there would be space for extra radios and perhaps map storage etc.
Another vehicle to be added to the list ofone-offs or very rare coversions.
More please!!!!
in gliederung of Pz Jäg Abt 653 (july 1944)
There are:
- 1 flak-Vierling auf Panther
- 1 Bef-Panthet with Pz IV turret
- 1 Bef Tiger
- 1 flak-Vierling auf T34
- 2 ammunition panzer auf T34
- 2 berge-elefant
- 3 ammunition panzer auf Pz III
I know there are great pictures in "Combat History of Schwere Panzerjäger-Abteilung 653 by Karlheinz Münch ", but I have never seen it.
There are:
- 1 flak-Vierling auf Panther
- 1 Bef-Panthet with Pz IV turret
- 1 Bef Tiger
- 1 flak-Vierling auf T34
- 2 ammunition panzer auf T34
- 2 berge-elefant
- 3 ammunition panzer auf Pz III
I know there are great pictures in "Combat History of Schwere Panzerjäger-Abteilung 653 by Karlheinz Münch ", but I have never seen it.
- Bayerlein spirit
- Member
- Posts: 427
- Joined: 20 Dec 2002, 02:30
- Location: France (Lyon)
Panzerkampfwagen IV Ausf H with Panther Ausf F's new narrow
Panzerkampfwagen IV Ausf H with Panther Ausf F's new narrow turret. in the other side........http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz3.htm
- Attachments
-
- pz4_pz5.jpeg (18.21 KiB) Viewed 13972 times
-
- Member
- Posts: 8251
- Joined: 07 May 2002, 20:40
- Location: Teesside
Hello Liki,I see you´re also a Spaniard.
The Panther with Pz4 turret was based in a Bergepanther hull in which a Pz4 G or H turret was bolted.I supose they thought that a panther hull was too valuable to be spent in recovery missions or maybe just was one of the first Bergepanther D (Without winch) and they thought that an armed recovery vehicle would add some "punch" to the recovery unit
654 repair shops were specialist when regarding to strange conversions they also made the FlaK T34 (T34 hull with a FlaKVierling 38 in a fully rotating armored superstructure.),I have also seen some pics of what seem to be the Ammunition vehicles on T34 chassis (Big boxes with a vision slot on the front plate on a T34 hull) but never of the Panther with FlaKvierling...
The Panther with Pz4 turret was based in a Bergepanther hull in which a Pz4 G or H turret was bolted.I supose they thought that a panther hull was too valuable to be spent in recovery missions or maybe just was one of the first Bergepanther D (Without winch) and they thought that an armed recovery vehicle would add some "punch" to the recovery unit
654 repair shops were specialist when regarding to strange conversions they also made the FlaK T34 (T34 hull with a FlaKVierling 38 in a fully rotating armored superstructure.),I have also seen some pics of what seem to be the Ammunition vehicles on T34 chassis (Big boxes with a vision slot on the front plate on a T34 hull) but never of the Panther with FlaKvierling...
you can see gliederung:
http://pageperso.aol.fr/Nox837/gliederung.jpg
group of leaders 8)
Bef Tiger
bergepanther before conversion
3 muni-pz III, 1 muni T34, 2 bergelefant
1 muni T34
flak group with T34
list of strange AFV
Javichu I would like to see your pics of Ammunition vehicles on T34 chassis, if you can. I have never seen Panther with FlaKvierling too.
You are french or spanish?
Michael Kenny If one day your scanner is Ok, think to me for Pz4/panther D pictures, thanks. 8)
http://pageperso.aol.fr/Nox837/gliederung.jpg
group of leaders 8)
Bef Tiger
bergepanther before conversion
3 muni-pz III, 1 muni T34, 2 bergelefant
1 muni T34
flak group with T34
list of strange AFV
Javichu I would like to see your pics of Ammunition vehicles on T34 chassis, if you can. I have never seen Panther with FlaKvierling too.
You are french or spanish?
Michael Kenny If one day your scanner is Ok, think to me for Pz4/panther D pictures, thanks. 8)
hi
found this site
http://www.mil-mod.de/Welcome/Photogall ... types.html (german site)
there's a sketch of a Panther with 20mmFlakvierling
and some others I didn't knew that they exist
my 2 cents
MadderCat
found this site
http://www.mil-mod.de/Welcome/Photogall ... types.html (german site)
there's a sketch of a Panther with 20mmFlakvierling
and some others I didn't knew that they exist
my 2 cents
MadderCat