Panther with Panzer IV Turret

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liki
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Panther with Panzer IV Turret

Post by liki » 11 Jun 2003 14:25

I am new in this forum.I don`t speak english well but I will try it.
I search information about the Panther with Panzer IV Turret
I don´t have much more information on this particular vehicle, which served as a command tank of schwere Heeres Panzerjager Abteilung 653 on the Eastern Front in early/mid of 1944
I searched on Internet but I didn`t find anything about this type of panther.
Thanks in advance and sorry for my english!!

daveh
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Post by daveh » 11 Jun 2003 15:32

Hi liki welcome to the forum

I was surprised to read of your Panther with a Panzer IV turret. As far as I was aware there was no such vehicle. There was a Panther command vehicle - the Panzerbefehlswagen mit 7.5cm KwK42 L/70.

There seems no reason to try to fit a Panzer IV turret to a Panther. Fitting a less well armed less well armoured turret when command versions of the Panther were available seems very strange. I do not know if the PanzerIV turret even would fit a Panther turret ring.

schwere Heeres Panzerjager Abteilung 653 did have one unusual command vehicle namely the Panzerbefehlswagen VI(P). This was the only completed Tiger(P) to see combat service. It was chassis number 150013 and was used by schwere Heeres Panzerjager Abteilung 653's commander, Hauptmann Grillenberg, on the Eastern Front in early/mid of 1944. It carried the turret number 003

The Tiger (P) was the Porsche design for the Tiger, the Panzerkampfwagen VI Tiger (P) VK4501(P) / Porsche Typ 101. see

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/tigerp.htm

Given the apparent lack of any reference to a Panther with a Panzer IV turret either on the internet or in the standard texts, I would suggest that this Tiger (P) might be the vehicle you have seen reference to. The dates of its use certainly match the ones you give.

If you could provide the quote where the Panther with Panzer IV turret is mentioned perhaps this could be resolved.

Hope this helped

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liki
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Panther with Panzer IV turret

Post by liki » 11 Jun 2003 15:52

"If you could provide the quote where the Panther with Panzer IV turret is mentioned perhaps this could be"

I send you the unique adress on internet where I have seen the panther whih panzer iv turret


http://resolved.members.tripod.com/~fin ... nthp4.html
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davethelight
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Post by davethelight » 11 Jun 2003 16:05

Curious!!
I wonder what it was used for, surely it would have been inferior as a fighting vehicle to the PkzfwV.
Last edited by davethelight on 12 Jun 2003 12:27, edited 1 time in total.

MadderCat
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Panther with PIV-Turret

Post by MadderCat » 11 Jun 2003 16:21

Hi

you can find some more info on http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz4.htm#panther

according to different sources (net and SteelMasters-magazine)
which all agree with this, it was used as a command vehicle in this unit.
there are differences according the turret, some state that it was
bolted in a fixed position, others say it was fully useable

sorry for my bad english

HTH
MadderCat

daveh
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Post by daveh » 11 Jun 2003 17:17

Many thanks MadderCat and liki for the pics and links. I stand corrected it is indeed a Panther with a Pz IV turret.

Such a curious vehicle, especially if the turret was bolted in a fixed position. As the turret was designed to traverse I presume the gun mounting had no lateral traverse at all. To be usable the entire vehicle would have to be aimed at the target... hardly an easy, swift or accurate procedure.

Unless the turret of the to be converted Panther had been destroyed, the use of a Bergepanther chassis would make more sense. The turret would have provided space for the use as a command vehicle. If no or virtually no ammunition was carried then there would be space for extra radios and perhaps map storage etc.

Another vehicle to be added to the list ofone-offs or very rare coversions.

More please!!!!

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Post by nox » 11 Jun 2003 18:29

in gliederung of Pz Jäg Abt 653 (july 1944)
There are:
- 1 flak-Vierling auf Panther
- 1 Bef-Panthet with Pz IV turret
- 1 Bef Tiger
- 1 flak-Vierling auf T34
- 2 ammunition panzer auf T34
- 2 berge-elefant
- 3 ammunition panzer auf Pz III
I know there are great pictures in "Combat History of Schwere Panzerjäger-Abteilung 653 by Karlheinz Münch ", but I have never seen it.

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Bayerlein spirit
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Panzerkampfwagen IV Ausf H with Panther Ausf F's new narrow

Post by Bayerlein spirit » 11 Jun 2003 19:46

Panzerkampfwagen IV Ausf H with Panther Ausf F's new narrow turret. :lol: in the other side........http://www.achtungpanzer.com/pz3.htm
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Michael Kenny
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Post by Michael Kenny » 11 Jun 2003 21:49

The Combat history of 653 says it was a 'recovery' Panther with a Pz IV turret bolted in place and not able to rotate. Scanner is out so I can't post pics!

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Javichu
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Post by Javichu » 11 Jun 2003 23:56

Hello Liki,I see you´re also a Spaniard. :D
The Panther with Pz4 turret was based in a Bergepanther hull in which a Pz4 G or H turret was bolted.I supose they thought that a panther hull was too valuable to be spent in recovery missions or maybe just was one of the first Bergepanther D (Without winch) and they thought that an armed recovery vehicle would add some "punch" to the recovery unit :lol:
654 repair shops were specialist when regarding to strange conversions they also made the FlaK T34 (T34 hull with a FlaKVierling 38 in a fully rotating armored superstructure.),I have also seen some pics of what seem to be the Ammunition vehicles on T34 chassis (Big boxes with a vision slot on the front plate on a T34 hull) but never of the Panther with FlaKvierling...

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Post by nox » 12 Jun 2003 12:27

you can see gliederung: 8O
http://pageperso.aol.fr/Nox837/gliederung.jpg
Image
group of leaders 8)
Image
Image
Bef Tiger :roll:
Image bergepanther before conversion :)
Image
3 muni-pz III, 1 muni T34, 2 bergelefant :wink:
Image
1 muni T34 :wink:
Image
flak group with T34 :)
Image
Image
list of strange AFV :lol:
Javichu I would like to see your pics of Ammunition vehicles on T34 chassis, if you can. I have never seen Panther with FlaKvierling too. :cry:
You are french or spanish?
Michael Kenny If one day your scanner is Ok, think to me for Pz4/panther D pictures, thanks. 8)

MadderCat
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Post by MadderCat » 12 Jun 2003 13:13

hi

found this site
http://www.mil-mod.de/Welcome/Photogall ... types.html (german site)

there's a sketch of a Panther with 20mmFlakvierling
and some others I didn't knew that they exist

my 2 cents

MadderCat

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Javichu
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Post by Javichu » 13 Jun 2003 00:26

OK .Maybe a Munitionspanzer T34????
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nox
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Post by nox » 13 Jun 2003 11:10

I thought muni-panzer T34= T34 without turret
like Image , very high T34 8O
My little fake (flak38/bergepantherD) :lol:
Image

nox
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Post by nox » 13 Jun 2003 13:50

on gliederung of 5 august 1944, one month after
Bef-Tiger and the 2 muni-pz T34 have been destroyed. :cry:
very high 2 muni-pz T34 good targets? :wink:
After combat 18 july- 5 august against the southern flank of the large soviet offensive in the ukraine, to the 653 there remains only one elefant company. 8O

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